Investigator Needs Help

[carlotta]

Awhile ago I started thinking that the Mormon church would be a good move for me and I started talking to missionaries and became even more interested. I was about ready to be baptised but I wanted to study more and I feel I would really love to be a part of the church but I don't know if the way I feel would be acceptable to the church. I beleive the church history for the most part but I don't really think he found actual plates and some of the things in the Book of Mormon I just can't rationalize in my head. I just don't think there could be this past civilization that no one else knows about. These feelings aren't likely to change but I do beleive that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I think I just need to know if there would be a place for me if I never came to feel any differently. I also don't share the church's position on homosexualtiy. I realize that what I'm saying may seem insulting but I don't mean it that way at all. I may at some point change my mind on these issues but it's more possible that I won't. This church fits me closer than any other but I don't want to be a hypocrite. (I've asked these questions with many members and I get the widest variety of answers that it confuses me even more.) Can anyone help?

[Ray]

Carlotta,

Before becoming a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you should be able to acknowledge before a bishop of the Church that you believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Acknowledging that you know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God indicates that you’re on the right track, but I recommend that you continue to read the Book of Mormon while asking our Father in heaven for wisdom and His assurance to help you know the truth regarding that.

Until then, you should continue to associate with members of the Church and attend as many Church meetings as you can, but you shouldn't become a member just yet.

And btw, I'm not saying that you need to totally understand everything in the Book of Mormon before you can know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. But you should know the Book of Mormon is the word of God just as the Bible is the word of God, even though there are some things in the Bible that you don't totally understand.

[carlotta]

Originally posted by carlotta+Aug 29 2005, 02:50 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Aug 29 2005, 02:46 PM

Carlotta,

Before becoming a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you should be able to acknowledge before a bishop of the Church that you believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God.  Acknowledging that you know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God indicates that you’re on the right track, but you are not ready to become a member of the Church, so I would continue to read the Book of Mormon while asking our Father in heaven for wisdom and His assurance to help you know the truth regarding that. 

Until then, you should continue to associate with members of the Church and attend as many Church meetings as you can, but you shoudn't become a member just yet.

Thank you, Ray;

I have a friend at church who is a member that feels the same way I do about things, for the most part. What about a member that feels that way?

[Ray]

I AM a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[carlotta]

I'm sorry, I wasn't referring to you but to a lady at church.

[Ray]

???

Sorry, but I guess I still don't understand what you're asking.

Are you saying you know a member of the Church who doesn’t know the Book of Mormon is the word of God?

[carlotta]

I'm saying that I know a member that does not share the views of the church on homosexuality and does not believe that physical "plates" were actually found but that is was a figure of speech.

[daizymae]

I wonder if she is referring more to her friend sharing her feelings on homosexuality?

Do you have a desire to know if the things you are struggling with are true? In Alma 32:27 we read that "even if you can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words". It may take some time, along with study, pondering, and prayer....but if you truly desire to know and understand it will come to you.

If you don't ever see your position changing, then why would you want to align yourself with a church whose foundation rests upon a book that you can't fully accept?

[carlotta]

Thank you for your feedback. You must understand that in other denominations there is room for personal interpretation and everyone is OK with that. That's what I wasn't sure about, whether that is allowed or not. I said previously that the Mormon church most closely fits my spiritual needs, with a couple of exceptions. I just want to know if exceptions are possible or if I should just go on my way.

[seamusz]

Originally posted by carlotta@Aug 29 2005, 02:44 PM

Thank you for your feedback. You must understand that in other denominations there is room for personal interpretation and everyone is OK with that. That's what I wasn't sure about, whether that is allowed or not. I said previously that the Mormon church most closely fits my spiritual needs, with a couple of exceptions. I just want to know if exceptions are possible or if I should just go on my way.

←

If I may interject a couple of points. You say that You believe that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, but can't accept that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be. It is, however impossible to separate the two issues... Either Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and The Book of Mormon is a book of scripture, true and accurate; or the Book of Mormon is a not true, and Joseph Smith was a fraud. There is no middle ground. I can appreciate that you feel the spirit in the LDS Church, but there is a portion of Gods spirit in many churches. The one thing that makes the LDS church special is that, if it is the One True Church of Christ, then the standards of the church are in line with the standards of God.

I had a very good friend on my mission who personally struggled with the churches view on homosexuality. He, himself, had been an active gay man for many, many years. However, he knew the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was the Lord's true and complete church. It took him two years to leave this lifestyle behind him and be baptized, but he was able to do it. And he knew that it was the right thing to do. This was in spite of being a proponent for the gay lifestyle for over many years.

I hope that cleared a few things up for you.

[carlotta]

thank you, it did. I think you are saying that it is not appropriate for me to be there until my beliefs are in line with the church. I hope you know there is no disrespect intended. I love your church and it's members.

[Ray]

There is room for personal interpretation on issues that haven’t been fully explained or revealed to you, but once information concerning something has been revealed to you, personally, you are accountable for what you know.

For instance, one of your issues is whether or not the Book of Mormon was found on physical plates, so you are accountable for everything you know regarding this issue.

And btw, you have already indicated that you do not believe the Book of Mormon was found on physical plates, so unless you change that belief to a “maybe it was and I won’t make up my mind until I investigate some more”, you will be held accountable for having made that judgment.

And just in case you are open to doing some more investigation, I will recommend that you read the testimony of Joseph Smith concerning what he said he found and dug up from that hill in New York state, as well as the testimony of the 3 witnesses and the testimony of the 8 witnesses concerning what they said they saw in regards to the Book of Mormon, asking our Father in heaven to give you wisdom and His assurance to know whether or not what they said is true.

At that point you will then either continue to have the same belief you have or you will have changed your mind regarding the Book of Mormon plates, but regardless of what you believe, you will be held accountable for your belief at the day of judgment, because you will have made up your own mind all by yourself one way or the other.

[seamusz]

Originally posted by carlotta@Aug 29 2005, 03:18 PM

thank you, it did. I think you are saying that it is not appropriate for me to be there until my beliefs are in line with the church. I hope you know there is no disrespect intended. I love your church and it's members.

←

Good, Im glad it did clear it up a bit :)

I would not worry about getting your beliefs in line with the church until you know that it is true. If it is true, then you need to change those views that are not in line, and if it isn't true, then you don't really need to worry about it.

[daizymae]

I think it's also appropriate to add that there are many teachings that the church doesn't give specific counsel on. Joseph Smith said of the members of the church "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves".

We can use the example of tithing. The correct prinicple taught is that we are to pay a 10% tithe. The self-governing factor that comes in is whether we tithe our gross income or our net income. If you were to ask a roomful of members what amount they tithe on, you'll get varying answers. The key is that each of them should feel comfortable in what they tithe on.....and hopefully they have come to that conclusion through a confirmation from the Spirit.

The issue of homosexuality is more clear-cut than that and the church's response to homosexuality can be found here.

I think Ray gave you some good advice regarding your concerns about the physical nature of the plates. Read again Joseph Smith's account of how the plates came into his possession, as well as the accounts of the 3 and 8 witnesses. I find it difficult to understand (simply because I've always been a member of the church) how you feel that there is some truth to the Book of Mormon, but that everyone who claims to have seen the plates were lying. Does that make sense? It would seem to me that if you felt that the accounts of people testifying that they had seen the actual plates were a bunch of baloney, that you would feel that the book as a whole wouldn't hold any truth either.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by carlotta@Aug 29 2005, 12:32 PM

I also don't share the church's position on homosexualtiy. I realize that what I'm saying may seem insulting but I don't mean it that way at all.  Can anyone help?

←

I agree very much on the Church's position on homosexuality. I also do not mean any insult but I have two problems on this subject

1. Homosexuality does not benefit society. I see no reason to support it until someone can demonstrate the need for it in society. I am not talking about respect for individuals - I am talking about a need for society to support that behavior.

2. As a scientist I take a scientific aproach. Sexual preference is a cognitive behavior. I do not understand the reason to cloud this issue.

The Traveler

[Snow]

Originally posted by seamusz@Aug 29 2005, 01:10 PM

It is, however impossible to separate the two issues... Either Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and The Book of Mormon is a book of scripture, true and accurate; or the Book of Mormon is a not true, and Joseph Smith was a fraud.  There is no middle ground. 

That's incorrect. There are people in the Church, more than a few, that accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and while appreciating spiritual truths in the Book of Mormon, do not accept it as true actual history. You may see it as a black and white issue, but others are able to live in a world less defined and rigid.

[Snow]

Originally posted by carlotta@Aug 29 2005, 12:44 PM

Thank you for your feedback. You must understand that in other denominations there is room for personal interpretation and everyone is OK with that. That's what I wasn't sure about, whether that is allowed or not. I said previously that the Mormon church most closely fits my spiritual needs, with a couple of exceptions. I just want to know if exceptions are possible or if I should just go on my way.

←

Is as much as I haven't been baptised lately, I am not familiar with what questions you have to answer in what manner in order to be baptized. When I was a missionary, it was pretty simple. You believed in the restoration and wanted to follow Christ.

The specifics of a baptism interview aside - you can believe whatever you want in the LDS Church... there is no test of spiritual purity or orthodox position to which you must adhere in order to belong.... there is no penalty for "heresy."

Of course you can't preach any whacky positions you may hold from the pulpit but that's another matter.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Traveler@Aug 29 2005, 04:11 PM

1.  Homosexuality does not benefit society.  I see no reason to support it until someone can demonstrate the need for it in society.  I am not talking about respect for individuals - I am talking about a need for society to support that behavior.

2. As a scientist I take a scientific aproach.  Sexual preference is a cognitive behavior.  I do not understand the reason to cloud this issue.

The Traveler

←

1. That's about as silly an argument on the matter I've ever heard. I see no need for Jessica Simpson in society nor any "benefit" that she provides but I don't oppose others in society for supporting her.

2. I would guess that is about an UNscientific an opinion as any. What evidence do you know of that sexual preference is determined by "mental action of processes of acquiring knowledge... " and not some other way?

Do you dig chicks cuz you learned to dig em, or do you just dig em cuz you are wired that way?

[daizymae]

Originally posted by Snow+Aug 29 2005, 11:40 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Aug 29 2005, 01:10 PM

It is, however impossible to separate the two issues... Either Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and The Book of Mormon is a book of scripture, true and accurate; or the Book of Mormon is a not true, and Joseph Smith was a fraud.  There is no middle ground. 

That's incorrect. There are people in the Church, more than a few, that accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and while appreciating spiritual truths in the Book of Mormon, do not accept it as true actual history. You may see it as a black and white issue, but others are able to live in a world less defined and rigid.

←

Hmmmm....I don't know. If you believe someone is a prophet of God, would you not believe that all that they preach is of God? I have no doubt that there are those who struggle with a testimony issue as you brought up....but IMO, it is just that--a testimony issue. Those individuals have not yet, for whatever reason, received a confirmation from the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. I don't personally think it is enough to just "appreciate" what the Book of Mormon teaches.

I have to agree with the statement that was made that if Joseph Smith truly was a prophet of God, then the Book of Mormon is unequivocally true.....if he was not, then the Book of Mormon is simply a book derived of man, however appreciative the teachings in it are.

[seamusz]

Originally posted by Snow+Aug 29 2005, 11:40 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Aug 29 2005, 01:10 PM

It is, however impossible to separate the two issues... Either Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and The Book of Mormon is a book of scripture, true and accurate; or the Book of Mormon is a not true, and Joseph Smith was a fraud.  There is no middle ground. 

That's incorrect. There are people in the Church, more than a few, that accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and while appreciating spiritual truths in the Book of Mormon, do not accept it as true actual history. You may see it as a black and white issue, but others are able to live in a world less defined and rigid.

←

No, it is correct. There is no middle ground. Those who view Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon as you suggested are inconsistent with the teachings of the Church, indeed with the statements of Joseph Smith himself. He said, “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”(emphasis added)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by daizymae+Aug 30 2005, 07:42 AM-->

Originally posted by Snow@Aug 29 2005, 11:40 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-seamusz@Aug 29 2005, 01:10 PM

It is, however impossible to separate the two issues... Either Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and The Book of Mormon is a book of scripture, true and accurate; or the Book of Mormon is a not true, and Joseph Smith was a fraud.  There is no middle ground. 

That's incorrect. There are people in the Church, more than a few, that accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and while appreciating spiritual truths in the Book of Mormon, do not accept it as true actual history. You may see it as a black and white issue, but others are able to live in a world less defined and rigid.

←

Hmmmm....I don't know. If you believe someone is a prophet of God, would you not believe that all that they preach is of God? I have no doubt that there are those who struggle with a testimony issue as you brought up....but IMO, it is just that--a testimony issue. Those individuals have not yet, for whatever reason, received a confirmation from the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. I don't personally think it is enough to just "appreciate" what the Book of Mormon teaches.

I have to agree with the statement that was made that if Joseph Smith truly was a prophet of God, then the Book of Mormon is unequivocally true.....if he was not, then the Book of Mormon is simply a book derived of man, however appreciative the teachings in it are.

←

Absolutely true. It is like day and night. The difference is great and oposing. The Holy Ghost is the only sure way to know and one must, I say MUST know before being baptised. Otherwise, Satan will have power over them.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow@ August 29, 2005, 10:45 PM

The specifics of a baptism interview aside - you can believe whatever you want in the LDS Church... there is no test of spiritual purity or orthodox position to which you must adhere in order to belong.... there is no penalty for "heresy."

Wrong.

First of all, I suggest you read section 20 of the Doctrine & Covenants to find out not only what our Lord requires before someone can become a member of His Church, but to find out what our Lord has to say about the Book of Mormon. Note verse 37 wherein the Lord says that a person is to “truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins” before becoming a member of the Church, and one of those “works” involves the work required to receive the Spirit of Christ which testifies that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

Second, there is a test of spiritual purity, as noted above.

Third, there is an orthodox position, as noted above.

And lastly, there is a penalty for heresy, which is excommunication from the Church or to be refused membership in the Church if you don’t agree with the doctrine of the Church… which I testify is the will of our Lord and the word of God.

But then again, why would someone want to be a member of the Church if they didn’t agree with our beliefs, anyway?

And btw, our Lord has also said that we must all be one or we are not His, and even though there are some members in the Church who quietly disagree, or who don’t make too big a fuss about having different beliefs, there will come a time when the Lord will sort everybody out according to what they are able to abide, with only those who totally agree with Him remaining or becoming members of His church.

Originally posted by Snow@ August 29, 2005, 10:45 PM

Of course you can't preach any whacky positions you may hold from the pulpit but that's another matter.

I guess you haven’t seen what I have seen in some of the Sacrament meetings I’ve attended.

When someone preaches a whacky position they hold from the pulpit, it is often overlooked for the moment and a member of the bishopric will talk with that person later if their teaching is contrary to the word of God and harmful to the ward. And the same holds true for someone who teaches a whacky belief in Sunday School, if their teaching is contrary to the word of God and harmful to the class.

Less harmful “whacky beliefs” are usually ignored if a person keeps that belief to himself, or if nobody reports what they heard, because that person isn’t trying to spread his doctrine, although they are still harmful to that individual.

But I will agree that we don’t have anything like the Inquisition where people are physically punished for having a belief contrary to the Church, and say that banishment from our Lord and His saints is reserved only for people who will not repent when they are told they are wrong.

[inactivetx]

Hi!

Been a long time since I have been on this board, so I hope ya'll will welcome me back.

The OP struck a chord with me as I feel like an 'investigator' since resuming my activity after 6 years.

First off, during my baptismal interview 9 years ago, I was asked by the missionary leader (don't remember the title, but not the bishop) if I believed in the BoM and I said No - I did not have a testimony of it yet and he let me through anyway. Now whether this was just a way to increase numbers or if he felt that I would eventually gain a testimony is unknown.

But the reason I can relate with the OP is that I STILL don't have a testimony of BoM. I read it and sometimes get it (like Alma, Nephi 3) and then totally lose it in Ether ( what's with the brother of Jared stuff - couldn't a man who saw Christ have a name?!) And don't get me started on the 'and it came to pass' used by every single writer! so I oscillate between the two - utter nonsense to inspired. And Yes, I have prayed - a lot - and read the book completely 3 times and plan to follow the prophets challenge to read it again. If I did gain a testimony it would probably be based on the teaching of the BoM - the spirit of the work - rather than the letter of the work., in other words, it's not true history.

Now in regards to the Homosexuality - I really don't see the Church moving on this one since the whole plan of salvation and exhaltation relies on getting married. The Bible/BoM/etc. are pretty blatant that marriage is between a man and woman and sexually relationships are only between married people, that pretty much excludes any form of fornication including homosexuality generally if not specifically.

I love the LDS church - it satisfies me on many levels which is why I am continually drawn to it, but yet feel hypocritical, as the OP, in that I haven't bought the whole package and thus feel the need to find a faith that more "fits" my understanding. So I am trying to rationalize whether one needs to buy the package in order to be a part of it.

HTH to know you are not alone!

Trin

[Ray]

Inactivetx,

I think you should take that hypocritical feeling and that feeling that draws you to the Church more seriously. Or in other words, take time to think a lot about what makes you feel that way. The Lord is trying to tell you something.

And btw, I sincerely welcome YOU to this board as a member of LDSTalk, and I sincerely welcome ANYONE to Church meetings as an investigator, but I feel uncomfortable knowing that some people are getting to know a member of the Church who doesn't correctly represent members of the Church. Or in other words, ALL members of the Church should believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God, among other things that are true, and we should ALL honor the covenants we made at baptism… otherwise membership in the Church does not signify what it should.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 30 2005, 12:22 PM

Inactivetx,

I think you should take that hypocritical feeling and that feeling that draws you to the Church more seriously.  Or in other words, take time to think a lot about what makes you feel that way.  The Lord is trying to tell you something.

And btw, I sincerely welcome YOU to this board as a member of LDSTalk, and I sincerely welcome ANYONE to Church meetings as an investigator, but I feel uncomfortable knowing that some people are getting to know a member of the Church who doesn't correctly represent members of the Church.  Or in other words, ALL members of the Church should believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God, among other things that are true, and we should ALL honor the covenants we made at baptism… otherwise membership in the Church does not signify what it should.

←

I agree heartily. Membership isn't just a game or social move. It means you have taken covenants!!!