Guest Member_Deleted Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 That the commandment : Thou shalt not kill was misinterpretated. The actual statement made by God was: Thou shalt not commit murder. There is a difference. Those who are soldiers or have to kill in the act of protecting themselves and family are not murdering, but they are killing. This would also vindicate Nephi in killing a man who tried to kill his family members and himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Originally posted by Please@Sep 6 2005, 09:36 PMThat the commandment : Thou shalt not kill was misinterpretated. The actual statement made by God was:Thou shalt not commit murder. There is a difference. Those who are soldiers or have to kill in the act of protecting themselves and family are not murdering, but they are killing.This would also vindicate Nephi in killing a man who tried to kill his family members and himself.←I don't know how many times I have had non-members approach me on this subject and some even refuse to read the BofM further because they don't think God has ever commanded someone to kill a wicked person who was an endangerment to righteous work.But here it is. There premise is always based upon the commandment supposedly given by God to not 'kill'.God never gave a commandment to not 'kill'. He gave a commandment to not commit murder.Nephi did not shed innocent blood. Just the opossit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiannan Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Didn't God command that certain ethnic groups in Palestine when the Hebrews were givin the land upon finally leaving their wandering after Egypt be totally destroyed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Some people argue that Nephi couldn't have been led by the Spirit because he broke one of the Ten Commandments, "thou shalt not kill." The Prophet Joseph Smith said, "God said, 'Thou shalt not kill;' at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heave is conducted -- by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reasons thereof till long after the events transpire. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 256) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Originally posted by Heather@Sep 7 2005, 01:30 PMSome people argue that Nephi couldn't have been led by the Spirit because he broke one of the Ten Commandments, "thou shalt not kill." The Prophet Joseph Smith said, "God said, 'Thou shalt not kill;' at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heave is conducted -- by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reasons thereof till long after the events transpire. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 256)←Isn't it interesting, that this is long after the events transpired and we now know intellectually why thou shalt not kill was not a commandment that God was crossing.Thanks Heather for the cool quote! It's a keeper for my files. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Sep 7 2005, 07:55 PMWhile i do agree with the interpretation on the commandment it is also splitting hairs some what. While i do believe that the are cases for murder in self defence, the only true difference between killing and murder is in the eye of the beholder, or the survivor, which ever way you want to look at it.←I disagree. It might just be that todays languages are diminishing in specifics. I am a writer and believe me, people use the wrong words all the time. English isn't really spoken here any more.There definitely is a big difference between killing and murder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Originally posted by Please@Sep 6 2005, 07:36 PMThat the commandment : Thou shalt not kill was misinterpretated. The actual statement made by God was:Thou shalt not commit murder. There is a difference. Those who are soldiers or have to kill in the act of protecting themselves and family are not murdering, but they are killing.This would also vindicate Nephi in killing a man who tried to kill his family members and himself.←If you go to the original Greek or Hebrew (xcr transliterated as ratsach) the word can be translated as kill or murder - we just try and understand it in the context of what else is found in the scriptures.Murder means: "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." I can assure you that what Nephi did was both illegal and premeditated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiffybird24 Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 first off while sometimes unlawful and illegal can be inerchangeble this time it really can't. un·law·ful - not morally right or conventional il·le·gal - not according to or authorized by law what Nephi did was to stop a very unjust and evil man which to me was very conventional. as God himself said, "it is better that one man should perish than an entire nation to dwindle and fall." utilitarianism is sometimes a good value to follow. of course killing should not be taken lightly and is not something that anyone should be proud of. nephi tells of how he very strongly disliked this commandment of God however it was a commandment so he was going to follow it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Originally posted by Snow+Sep 7 2005, 08:34 PM--><!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 6 2005, 07:36 PMThat the commandment : Thou shalt not kill was misinterpretated. The actual statement made by God was:Thou shalt not commit murder. There is a difference. Those who are soldiers or have to kill in the act of protecting themselves and family are not murdering, but they are killing.This would also vindicate Nephi in killing a man who tried to kill his family members and himself.←If you go to the original Greek or Hebrew (xcr transliterated as ratsach) the word can be translated as kill or murder - we just try and understand it in the context of what else is found in the scriptures.Murder means: "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." I can assure you that what Nephi did was both illegal and premeditated.←Wrong. He didn't plan it. He fought against it until he was given "understanding". Of course I will give you this, right and legal are two separate issues. Just because it is legal doesn't make it right.Our judicial system isn't right, but it is legal.What Nephi did was right, if not legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Originally posted by Please@Sep 7 2005, 08:52 PMWrong. He didn't plan it. He fought against it until he was given "understanding". Sorry - I stand corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Originally posted by Please+Sep 7 2005, 10:52 PM-->Originally posted by Snow@Sep 7 2005, 08:34 PM<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 6 2005, 07:36 PMThat the commandment : Thou shalt not kill was misinterpretated. The actual statement made by God was:Thou shalt not commit murder. There is a difference. Those who are soldiers or have to kill in the act of protecting themselves and family are not murdering, but they are killing.This would also vindicate Nephi in killing a man who tried to kill his family members and himself.←If you go to the original Greek or Hebrew (xcr transliterated as ratsach) the word can be translated as kill or murder - we just try and understand it in the context of what else is found in the scriptures.Murder means: "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." I can assure you that what Nephi did was both illegal and premeditated.←Wrong. He didn't plan it. He fought against it until he was given "understanding". Of course I will give you this, right and legal are two separate issues. Just because it is legal doesn't make it right.Our judicial system isn't right, but it is legal.What Nephi did was right, if not legal.←So any wack-o out there that kills someone and claims that god told them to do it should go free, right? Snow is right. God forbid we allow some lunatic like a Pat Robertson decide who should live and who should die! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Originally posted by Jason+Sep 8 2005, 09:11 AM-->Originally posted by Please@Sep 7 2005, 10:52 PMOriginally posted by Snow@Sep 7 2005, 08:34 PM<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 6 2005, 07:36 PMThat the commandment : Thou shalt not kill was misinterpretated. The actual statement made by God was:Thou shalt not commit murder. There is a difference. Those who are soldiers or have to kill in the act of protecting themselves and family are not murdering, but they are killing.This would also vindicate Nephi in killing a man who tried to kill his family members and himself.←If you go to the original Greek or Hebrew (xcr transliterated as ratsach) the word can be translated as kill or murder - we just try and understand it in the context of what else is found in the scriptures.Murder means: "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." I can assure you that what Nephi did was both illegal and premeditated.←Wrong. He didn't plan it. He fought against it until he was given "understanding". Of course I will give you this, right and legal are two separate issues. Just because it is legal doesn't make it right.Our judicial system isn't right, but it is legal.What Nephi did was right, if not legal.←So any wack-o out there that kills someone and claims that god told them to do it should go free, right? Snow is right. God forbid we allow some lunatic like a Pat Robertson decide who should live and who should die!←Are you kidding? Why do you people insist upon stating outragious and over generalized crap?When God commands someone to kill, there is a darn good reason, and all I have read states that those whom he speaks with are PROPHETS, not the general wacko population.By their fruits ye shall know them... You seem to have a problem discerning between righteous and wacko, false Christ's and the true Christ...You really need to get a little righteousness so that you will be able to think clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Sep 8 2005, 10:48 AMMy question is then can everyday people truly tell the difference between some one who has heard the voice of God and someone who claims they have heard the voice of God?←Only if they have the life changing experience of having the Holy Ghost. Having an evil spirit whisper in your ear usually is attended with a feeling of empty space or fear. There will always follow a progressive down hill spin diminishing in clear thinking and righteous works.Where as when someone has listened to and been taught or guided by the Holy Ghost, there life changes for the better. They are filled with humility, yet courage. They see and understand things they never knew or understood before. They begin an ascent to a higher level of awareness of themselves, their weaknesses, their need for God. They will do more righteous works with more positive effects to both themselves and those they serve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Originally posted by Please+Sep 8 2005, 10:13 AM-->Originally posted by Jason@Sep 8 2005, 09:11 AMOriginally posted by Please@Sep 7 2005, 10:52 PMOriginally posted by Snow@Sep 7 2005, 08:34 PM<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 6 2005, 07:36 PMThat the commandment : Thou shalt not kill was misinterpretated. The actual statement made by God was:Thou shalt not commit murder. There is a difference. Those who are soldiers or have to kill in the act of protecting themselves and family are not murdering, but they are killing.This would also vindicate Nephi in killing a man who tried to kill his family members and himself.←If you go to the original Greek or Hebrew (xcr transliterated as ratsach) the word can be translated as kill or murder - we just try and understand it in the context of what else is found in the scriptures.Murder means: "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." I can assure you that what Nephi did was both illegal and premeditated.←Wrong. He didn't plan it. He fought against it until he was given "understanding". Of course I will give you this, right and legal are two separate issues. Just because it is legal doesn't make it right.Our judicial system isn't right, but it is legal.What Nephi did was right, if not legal.←So any wack-o out there that kills someone and claims that god told them to do it should go free, right? Snow is right. God forbid we allow some lunatic like a Pat Robertson decide who should live and who should die!←Are you kidding? Why do you people insist upon stating outragious and over generalized crap?When God commands someone to kill, there is a darn good reason, and all I have read states that those whom he speaks with are PROPHETS, not the general wacko population.By their fruits ye shall know them... You seem to have a problem discerning between righteous and wacko, false Christ's and the true Christ...You really need to get a little righteousness so that you will be able to think clearer.←No, Im not kidding. Pat Robertson called for the assasination of the President of Venezuela. Joseph Smith called for the assasination of the Govenor of Missouri (probably). Tell me what a 2 year old Canaanite child did wrong that they deserved to have their throat slit by an invading Israelite army? You seriously telling me that "god" thought that was best? If by their fruits we shall know the good from the bad, then all who call for death at the command of God are clearly in the wrong. There, now you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Originally posted by Jason@Sep 8 2005, 05:07 PMNo, Im not kidding. Pat Robertson called for the assasination of the President of Venezuela. Joseph Smith called for the assasination of the Govenor of Missouri (probably). Tell me what a 2 year old Canaanite child did wrong that they deserved to have their throat slit by an invading Israelite army? You seriously telling me that "god" thought that was best? If by their fruits we shall know the good from the bad, then all who call for death at the command of God are clearly in the wrong. There, now you know.←You think you understand everything so well. You don't. God knows things you can't possibly know and for reason's you will never be given because you closed the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Originally posted by Please@Sep 8 2005, 05:24 PMYou think you understand everything so well. You don't. God knows things you can't possibly know and for reason's you will never be given because you closed the door.←I think that Jehovah is an immoral, jealous deity who isn't worth the paper I wipe my butt with. Killing is immoral. No god is worth that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setheus Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Someone just broke into your house Jason.....ALL they want is to steal your TV and your VCR......you do not know that and believe that your child's life is in danger....so you blow that MO FO into the next world! Is THAT immoral? You just killed a man who was ONLY there to steal a tv and a vcr so that he could pay for his next fix. Sometimes killing is a-o-k :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushka Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Originally posted by Setheus@Sep 8 2005, 06:26 PMSomeone just broke into your house Jason.....ALL they want is to steal your TV and your VCR......you do not know that and believe that your child's life is in danger....so you blow that MO FO into the next world! Is THAT immoral? You just killed a man who was ONLY there to steal a tv and a vcr so that he could pay for his next fix. Sometimes killing is a-o-k :)←Unlikely to occur in the UK where guns are not so easily obtainable...but I do see the point you are trying to make. Over here you would be charged with murder for doing that, because you were not using reasonable force for self defence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Originally posted by Jason+Sep 8 2005, 06:30 PM--><!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 8 2005, 05:24 PMYou think you understand everything so well. You don't. God knows things you can't possibly know and for reason's you will never be given because you closed the door.←I think that Jehovah is an immoral, jealous deity who isn't worth the paper I wipe my butt with. Killing is immoral. No god is worth that.←You need to rethink... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Originally posted by Setheus@Sep 8 2005, 07:26 PMSomeone just broke into your house Jason.....ALL they want is to steal your TV and your VCR......you do not know that and believe that your child's life is in danger....so you blow that MO FO into the next world! Is THAT immoral? You just killed a man who was ONLY there to steal a tv and a vcr so that he could pay for his next fix. Sometimes killing is a-o-k :)←Sethus, Apples and oranges. Of course I would blow that sucker away with my 9mm Glock. However Im not talking about someone who's threatening me or my family.If God were to tell someone to drive 1200 miles to some town where no Mormons live at all, and to shoot every living being there from infants to the near dead because they weren't Mormons, and did not worship Yahweh (or whichever god you choose), I'd have a serious problem with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Originally posted by Please+Sep 8 2005, 08:24 PM-->Originally posted by Jason@Sep 8 2005, 06:30 PM<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 8 2005, 05:24 PMYou think you understand everything so well. You don't. God knows things you can't possibly know and for reason's you will never be given because you closed the door.←I think that Jehovah is an immoral, jealous deity who isn't worth the paper I wipe my butt with. Killing is immoral. No god is worth that.←You need to rethink...←You need to think about it period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Originally posted by Jason+Sep 8 2005, 09:06 PM-->Originally posted by Please@Sep 8 2005, 08:24 PMOriginally posted by Jason@Sep 8 2005, 06:30 PM<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 8 2005, 05:24 PMYou think you understand everything so well. You don't. God knows things you can't possibly know and for reason's you will never be given because you closed the door.←I think that Jehovah is an immoral, jealous deity who isn't worth the paper I wipe my butt with. Killing is immoral. No god is worth that.←You need to rethink...←You need to think about it period.←You know I have, and I have seen things from where you stand and I have come back thankful I didn't stay where you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Originally posted by Please+Sep 8 2005, 10:32 PM-->Originally posted by Jason@Sep 8 2005, 09:06 PMOriginally posted by Please@Sep 8 2005, 08:24 PMOriginally posted by Jason@Sep 8 2005, 06:30 PM<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 8 2005, 05:24 PMYou think you understand everything so well. You don't. God knows things you can't possibly know and for reason's you will never be given because you closed the door.←I think that Jehovah is an immoral, jealous deity who isn't worth the paper I wipe my butt with. Killing is immoral. No god is worth that.←You need to rethink...←You need to think about it period.←You know I have, and I have seen things from where you stand and I have come back thankful I didn't stay where you are.←Making your own decisions in life can be scary. It's not for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Originally posted by Jason@Sep 9 2005, 01:10 AMMaking your own decisions in life can be scary. It's not for everyone.←Yes it would be. But there was more. The further I went down the road you are currently traveling, the more I felt like I was going nowhere fast. I began to examine exactly why I was traveling the road, and a few other elements of my emotional and spiritual situation and realized I was reacting, rather than acting. I realized I was prideful and wanton. I was loosing everything I thought I was pursuing in my pursuit...It was like watching the vapors of smoke disappear... that was how I felt my life and happiness was becoming... like whiffs of smoke disappearing into nothingness.I began to repent and let go. I began at the beginning and started over where Alma said to start... with only the desire to believe. It was incredible the change and new life I received. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindy Posted September 9, 2005 Report Share Posted September 9, 2005 Originally posted by Jason@Sep 9 2005, 12:10 AMMaking your own decisions in life can be scary. It's not for everyone.← You are so right Jason...especially when you make the wrong decision, and you have to travel back the way you came from to take the right path.Prayer isn't for everyone, faith in God isn't for everyone...but it makes me very sad to see you use deity and toilet paper in the same sentence...... when you spend enough time in that pit you are falling into.... we'll be here for you to help you out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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