How to earn salvation by works.

[Maureen]

Child A: Aren't mom and dad great? They got me this car.

Child B: Yeah, but they said you have to drive careful, pay for the insurance, and keep getting good grades.

Child A: But the GAVE me this car. They're awesome!

Child B: Don't forget, you have take care of it and yourself.

Child A: Bro., I could never have gotten this car. Mom and Dad are AWESOME!!!

Child B: Just remember, you've gotta take care of stuff.

I have a feeling Child B is a little envious of Child A.

M.

[beefche]

Are we talking past each other here?

Yes.

[Justice]

Yes, PC. I think, and therefore post, according to what I see and know. I know if I don't pay my car insurance, the fact my parents gave me a car means near nothing because I can't use it.

I know it is a gift of mercy. I have stated that many, many times. What bothers me is when I hear "you don't have to do anything to receive the gift." Well, maybe so, but that's missing the point that you do have to do something in order to keep and use the gift.

I hear all you need is faith. Well, what does it mean to be faithful? Can you be full of faith and do nothing about your belief?

The answer is clearly no.

Having said that, I have always believed that Christians are generally very close on what they believe. Sometimes it's getting to the bottom of the definitions and beliefs.

[Maureen]

I'm adding these two articles as more clarification. I don't know if they will help but I like reading articles by Daniel Wallace.

What Does it Mean to be Justified? A Brief Exposition of Romans 3.21-26, Part 1 | Bible.org | Home of NET Bible on-line, Bible Study tools, Free Bible

What Does it Mean to be Justified? A Brief Exposition of Romans 3.21-26, Part 2 | Bible.org | Home of NET Bible on-line, Bible Study tools, Free Bible

M.

[Justice]

I have a feeling Child B is a little envious of Child A.

I was going to move away from looking for differences and talk about the similarities. But, your post actually helps me see your persepctive a little more. Perhaps if I mention what I see, it might help you see my perspective a little more.

I don't see him as envious. I think child B shows more respect and love to his parents for honoring and recognizing his parent's sacrifice in giving him the gift. He shows a maturity that child A seems to be lacking, even though child A is enourmously grateful. Child B wants to outwardly show his parents he's thankful instead of simply telling them how thankful he is. He wants to do his part to be sure the gift can be used and is maintained in an operative condition.

It doesn't mean child B isn't thankful. It doesn't even mean he doesn't express his thanks verbally to his parents, or that he is less thankful than child A. It means he recognizes that actions mean more than words, since he he was taught by his parents.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Justice

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sometimes it just seems that we evangelicals love to emphasize the gift of God's grace, and LDS are loathe to permit people the delusion of thinking they can just grab and run. In both cases, there is an underlying respect for God. One side stressing the gift, and the other the responsibility that the gift entails.

Child A: Aren't mom and dad great? They got me this car.

Child B: Yeah, but they said you have to drive careful, pay for the insurance, and keep getting good grades.

Child A: But the GAVE me this car. They're awesome!

Child B: Don't forget, you have take care of it and yourself.

Child A: Bro., I could never have gotten this car. Mom and Dad are AWESOME!!!

Child B: Just remember, you've gotta take care of stuff.

Are we talking past each other here?

In all honesty, I think LDS do both. In fact, through this whole thread, I've tried to ask why there has to be a separation of child A and child B. I gather from these discussions that LDS try to say these two things don't have to be opposing views, grace and works. And evangelicals have a hard time not separating them. Every Sunday, I partake of the sacrament to remember His grace and sacrifice at the same time I am actually doing the work of going to church and participating in that ordinance. I think one can emphasize both. Child A and B can be the same person!

[prisonchaplain]

OK Seminary...the agreement was fun while it lasted...here we go again...the child can't really learn to be responsible for the car until he has it. There is no amount of lecturing about maintenance, insurance, careful driving etc. that can prepare the child like actually owning the car does. Likewise, we are gifted with salvation, and then, through discipleship learn to work it out and make it signficant and powerful.

[sixpacktr]

OK Seminary...the agreement was fun while it lasted...here we go again...the child can't really learn to be responsible for the car until he has it. There is no amount of lecturing about maintenance, insurance, careful driving etc. that can prepare the child like actually owning the car does. Likewise, we are gifted with salvation, and then, through discipleship learn to work it out and make it signficant and powerful.

I like how you think, PC. I think that sometimes we LDS are so hard on ourselves (works) that we forget that grace is a gift, freely given. But we do have to 'earn' it by continuing to 'get good grades' (to borrow your term), that is, while it is available for us to use, if we don't strive to become as Christ is we can be found to be keyless at the last day.

Living among the Southern Baptists for a while in the South made me realize that we LDS need to understand more that grace is real and NOW. I think where we may diverge, then, is that we LDS believe that we need to continually repent and become better thru our works (show faith thru works), and that we are continually in jeopardy if we decide that we've 'done enough', that we're 'in' no matter what we do now. And that may be where Evangelicals and LDS part ways as well: from my experience talking to my SB friends, once saved, always saved. Good works are a result of that saving experience. With LDS, however, while we believe that we are saved thru the Atonement of Christ, we need to continue in good works in order to keep it in effect in our lives thru the companionship of the HG and doing God's will.

Maybe that has all been rehashed in earlier posts--didn't feel like reading 80 posts to get there...

[prisonchaplain]

Six,

FWIW, there are some evangelicals who err in our presentation of the Gospel. We focus on the "ABCs," of salvation: Admit (sin), Believe (Christ), Confess (sins), and we forget the big D (DISCIPLESHIP). Martin Luther, in his reaction against Catholic corruption (especially the selling of indulgences) was so focused on grace, and so deeply convinced of our inability to "earn" anything, that he's sometimes accused of promoting "worm theology" (we are nothing but worms whom God chose to bestow grace upon).

Nevertheless, grace salvation, fully fleshed out, includes the expectation that life changes at conversion. Arminians fear that we can still lose our salvation, and so obey Christ's commands to work out and maintain that which we've been gifted with. Even Calvinists, believing in eternal security, would seek to demonstrate that they are amongst the Chosen of God, by living godly lives.

[beefche]

I'm a sideliner on this discussion, but really think that LDS and Evangelical thinking is nearly the same on this--the terms are different, but from PC and Maureen's explanation, it seems to me that we all believe grace and works are important.

I do have one question--not to start a debate, please don't--do Evangelicals believe in "deathbed" confessions? That is, if someone their whole life didn't live a life of discipleship, then literally right before they die, confess a belief in Jesus, is that person "saved?"

From an LDS perspective, I don't think we believe in deathbed confessions. But, our belief in the afterlife would cover this--this person would have the chance to learn of the Gospel and have an opportunity to accept it or reject it in spirit prison. His works while on earth would be judged of God who knows all thoughts, intents, and other things to make a right and merciful judgment.

[prisonchaplain]

Beefche...I believe in them and sincerely hope they are true. Further, they may not be as unfair as many presume. First, the hardcore sinner, rebel against God, is likely so hard of heart that they will be unable to repent on their deathbeds. I actually heard an account of a man who, despite the loved one's pleas, just kept repeating, with stark fear in his eyes, "I'm going to hell...I'm going to hell." He knew Jesus was the way, but was so hard of heart, he could not pray for grace.

Then there are those who strived to do good and responsible, but never connected with God. On their deathbeds they reflect and realize that they'd been trying to please God the whole time...and so finally make their confession of faith.

Then there are those who don't really believe, but who will pretend, in order to comfort their believing loved ones. I do pity those souls.

Jesus tells a parable of workers who are hired early morning, late morning, and then late afternoon. At the end all are paid the same. When the early workers complain, the boss says, "I paid you what I promised. What's it to you if I decide to give late workers the same blessing?"

It's this parable that leads us to believe that all Christians will enter the Kingdom of God, irregardless of the AMOUNT or QUALITY of works and faith. Even those with faith of a mustard seed will be welcomed. On the other hand, I do not deny that rewards and responsibilities will be given, depending on faithfulness.

[beefche]

Thanks, PC. I understand what you are saying.

Maybe this question has already been asked (if so, just point me in the right direction), but what about those people who do not know Jesus in this life? Thinking in particular the parts of the world where Jesus is not preached (I saw some documentary just the other day on a tribe in Africa that lives off the land and has a pagan belief system). How do they fare in the after life if they did not have a chance to know Jesus?

[Justice]

There is no amount of lecturing about maintenance, insurance, careful driving etc. that can prepare the child like actually owning the car does. Likewise, we are gifted with salvation, and then, through discipleship learn to work it out and make it signficant and powerful.

Yes, but given their agency, they have the freedom to sell the car for something they deem better... like a motorcycle.

So, they once possessed it, now they don't. It was their actions that caused them to lose it.

So, naturally, if they don't sell it, but maintain it and care for it, it would be their actions that cause them to keep it as well.

Right?

[prisonchaplain]

Beefche: My answer is that God will do right by everyone, and there will be no objections to God's grace, mercy, or justice come the Day of Judgment. Bottom line: I don't know, but I trust God.

Justice: Works maintain our salvation, and yes the gift can be squandered. So, works > keep salvation, but not to OBTAIN it.

[Justice]

Justice: Works maintain our salvation, and yes the gift can be squandered. So, works > keep salvation, but not to OBTAIN it.

The only way I could agree is if I thought ordinances such as baptism weren't required.

I believe they are.

I don't believe baptism produces salvation any more than boy A in your example produced the car himself. But, I believe the parents put the condition that the boy had to get a lisence first because they knew the car was unusable without it.

However, I believe we have a greater understanding of each other.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sorry, this has been said before in so many ways, but as people are jumping in the middle of the conversation ... I think there are at least 3 things (probably more than 3, but these are the ones that come to mind for me) that make our view (LDS view) of this different from other religions. And I am just saying this to help others understand where we are coming from ;

1. Knowing that we existed in a premortal state - this changes discussion of when we started to believe in Christ' plan

2. Knowing that Gods plan is to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man and that He gains glory from doing this. I think ones idea of salvation is different when you understand that you are working out your salvation for Gods glory.

3. Knowing that living in the Celestial Kingdom is a state of continual hard work. It is a place, like God, one will have works without end. If one thinks 'salvation' is a place of eternal rest and relaxation, no purpose, then it is easy to say that no work is required here. When one realizes that the place we are trying to get to will be filled with people who 'love to work their butts off', and we will attain the degree of glory with like-minded people, then it is important in this life to cultivate the spirit of hard work and eternal striving. It is in the other Kingdoms that there is less work and less responsibility. If that is what you desire, no weight on your shoulders, then God has a place for you, but I can tell you, without a doubt in my mind that the people that make it to the Celestial Kingdom are ones that desire to have added responsibility, i.e. - more and more work. If you feel you would be uncomfortable in a place filled with busy-bees, well that's what this life is for, to change the desires of your heart and focus on the correct things. But if you feel like not worrying about, "have I done enough?" "what more does God want me to do?" and that is the desire of your heart, then you will be placed in a kingdom of like-minded people, and not surrounded by busy-bees. (This is not a statement of where I am at in life, I have a lot more to work on to get to that point myself, but you have to know where you want to be to have that change of heart.)

Oh and there is one more thing ... realizing that LDS believe in two different salvations, one from temporal death and one from spiritual death, so we have to make sure we specify which salvation you are talking about. Point 1 above is related to temporal death and points 2 and 3 above are related to spiritual death.