Very stuck on this LDS doctrine

[Lilac]

I think this is my total sticking point.

Anyone want to take a shot at it? I brought it up to the missionaries but the conversation didn't really answer my questions. Maybe someone here who was once Protestant can help me?

In reading about the LDS, I came across these teachings. I then looked up Bible verses about God.

I'd like to join the LDS church. I really, really like you guys. But this teaching? Having trouble with it...

Most important, are these quotes accurate? Are they true LDS doctine?

As a member of the LDS church, do you see a conflict? Why or why not? (that sounded like an essay question from high school).

Thank you for your help. I do appreciate it.

Mormon Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, page 123, made by the LDS Apostle Orson Hyde:

"Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, a mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point were He is."

Lorenzo Snow, late President of the Mormon church:

"As Abra'm, Isaac, Jacob, too, babes, then men--to gods they grew. As man now is, our God once was; As now God is, so man may be,-- Which doth unfold man's destiny. . ."

Bible verses:

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Psalms 102:26-27, "They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end."

Isaiah 43:10-11, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 44:8, "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

[Palerider]

check this link out

Mormon Answers (LDS FAQ): The Divine Potential of Human Beings - or Do Mormons Believe They Can Become Gods?

[beefche]

Lilac, is it the thought that God may have been a man or that we can inherit all God has and become like Him? Or both?

[tubaloth]

Most important, are these quotes accurate? Are they true LDS doctine?

Yes.

As a member of the LDS church, do you see a conflict? Why or why not?

No, because there are two kind of stages talked about here.

Really there is a time where we all are learning and growing and progressing. There was a point before God was God. Before this point God was learning and growing just as we are.

So now lets take a break and see if there is a problem with this idea? I don’t have a problem that God at some point in time was learning and growing, and even to the point lived on some earth. Why? Because it shows even more that God knows what I’m going through. God understands the problems of life, not because of some all powerful knowledge, but because He did it. He knows about taking out the trash, knows about losing a loved one, nows about struggling with life. Does that make God less of a God? No.

The next idea to understand is that we believe that we can become like God. That our Heavenly Father loves us enough that he wants us to become like Him. God knows that a fullness of Joy is doing the same thing he is doing (Creating worlds and children). We believe this happen in some way to our Heavenly Father.

So that is next stage. At some point in time (we don’t know when) God past the test of his mortal life, was judged and gained all His Father had. (Gaining all means just that, All!). God then had all power. This being is the one we have faith in. Now God knows all because of his power. There isn’t any limitation to God!

So with that in mind lets look at the scriptures you sited.

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

This one is easy. You can see this is trying to compare God with mans limitations. Obviously God doesn’t lie like Man does, nor does God need to repent. God is different then what man is. That isn’t to say that God isn’t in the FORM of a Man?

Psalms 102:26-27, "They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end."

Joseph Smith (I assume you know who that is) taught that God doesn’t change. We can’t have faith in God if we know he is going to change. That one requirement for salvation from on day isn’t the same requirement for the next, is a changing God. Even though God progressed (made choices) to reach his status, God is now not changing in the full sense of the word. God sets forth his commandments and they are his Law. God is bound by them just as much as we are! Again no conflict with this doctrine.

Isaiah 43:10-11, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

I do find this scripture kind of funny. Do you actually think God is talking about all the corners of the Universe and talking about that there is no other God. OR do you think God is trying to teach that He is the only way to Salvation, and that no other God that man can form (Idols) is going to ever bring Salvation. This is teaching more about not worshiping other gods, mostly idols. I think we can agree that’s what this is talking about?

But taking it into light with our Doctrine it is still true. Our God or My Heavenly Father is the only God I ever need to know about. Heavenly Father is the only one that can provide my salvation (Through his Son). Even if there are millions of other God’s that doesn’t downgrade God’s power or his ability to Save me. Meaning just as my Father here on earth is always going to be my Father (even if there are millions of other Fathers). That relationship with my Father is always connected. The same with our God. His is always our God. Nothing changes just because there are others in the picture.

Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

This would fit with the above scripture. God is teaching there is no other way to Salvation. Worshiping any other item or god (being it an Idol, or even be it some other God in some other universe) does not bring salvation to me, or to people under Heavenly Father.

Isaiah 44:8, "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Same here, I think I have beat this to death.

The idea that we can become like God is the main doctrine taught by the church. That we can become Joint airs with Christ. What did Christ get? He sits with his Father? We are hoping through Christ we can obtain the same blessing.

The idea that God was once a man is really only an idea. We don’t know any more then just that idea. But fitting it in with the doctrine we know, it makes sense.

So I would like your explanation of really what Salvation is? What is the point of this life? What is the ultimate Goal or what are we trying to ultimately obtain?

Second would be your idea of God? I don’t know what protestants believe in?

My goal in all of this is find the root of who God is, see where things take a different course.

[hordak]

God isn't a name. It's a title. Otherwise "have no Gods before me" would make no sense.

I tell my kids I am their father, will always be there father, they have and will not have any other father then me, they had no father before me.

It doesn't mean there aren't other fathers, that i always was a father, or that they can't become fathers themselves.

[FlyingPurpleMonkey]

I believe Mr. Lindsay's responses, in Palerider's link, are a bit disingenuous and answer questions that were not asked. I think he knows what the people are really asking but is deflecting them. Here are the basic questions...

Do Mormons believe that God has a God above Him?

Lindsay said we will always be subservient to HF, is He subservient to His HF?

Do Mormons believe we will have spiritual children, create planets and fill those planets with our own children?

Do they believe those children will live a mortality with us serving in, for those children, the same role HF fills for us?

Will some of those children eventually be exalted to Godhood, with us being the God they will always be subservient to, just as we will always be subservient to our HF?

[Just_A_Guy]

Lilac, it is not an article of the Mormon faith that God was once a man. It is not a doctrinal litmus test--you don't have to accept the idea to be baptized, or even to go through a Mormon temple.

That said: Most Mormons (myself included) do believe it, and from time to time this belief will come up in Sunday school discussions or whatever.

[deseretgov]

Mormon Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, page 123, made by the LDS Apostle Orson Hyde:

"Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, a mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point were He is."

Lorenzo Snow, late President of the Mormon church:

"As Abra'm, Isaac, Jacob, too, babes, then men--to gods they grew. As man now is, our God once was; As now God is, so man may be,-- Which doth unfold man's destiny. . ."

Bible verses:

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Psalms 102:26-27, "They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end."

Isaiah 43:10-11, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 44:8, "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

All of these are true. Don't forget Pslams 82:6(Emphasis added):

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

[john doe]

All of these are true. Don't forget Pslams 82:6(Emphasis added):

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

While it's possible those may be true, they are not doctrinal, and we as a church are not bound by them.

[Lilac]

I just wanted to pop in and say thank you for your responsess. I looked at them briefly but we are running around cleaning because the missionaries are coming after church and my house is really really trashed. It would be nice if they could sit on the sofa without a doll, lego, Barbie or someone's socks.

Just briefly, I am bothered most by the "God was a man". I just don't see that anywhere in the KJV. It really is a sticking point for me. My husband says "that could be a deal breaker". I do feel better that I don't have to attest to that and there is some room for personal interpretation.

That we can progress and be LIKE God, I'm OK with the word "like" in there. I think we will be God-like in the afterlife. I see references to that in the KJV, how we will be in glory with the Father.

The missionaries have told me to pray and see if I get a revelation. I don't feel I can pray openly and honestly if this is true unless I have a good understanding of LDS doctrine. I know I can't understand everything but I need to understand the big stuff. Maybe that is just me? But I finally figured out this is what I need to do.

Again, thank you for your help.

Many blessings

[deseretgov]

Just briefly, I am bothered most by the "God was a man". I just don't see that anywhere in the KJV.

Well it's not in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, or Pearl of Great Price either.

[tubaloth]

That we can progress and be LIKE God, I'm OK with the word "like" in there. I think we will be God-like in the afterlife. I see references to that in the KJV, how we will be in glory with the Father.

But I think the same holds true. Isn't God "like" us. Aren't we created in his image. Doesn't God know how to do the things we do. How do you think God gained that knoweldge? Just in the same way that I can become like God, God is like me, because he created me that way.

I think your point is perfect, but I don't see how this likeness can only go one way? Can it?

[clark87]

Originally Posted by Lilac

Just briefly, I am bothered most by the "God was a man". I just don't see that anywhere in the KJV.

To tell you the truth, when I first heard the "God was a man", I struggled with it for a bit. It wasn't until later that a few thoughts occured to me.

If a person who has never read the bible or heard about Jesus Christ were to meet Jesus personally, they would recognize a perfect, trustworthy, loving being. They would recognize Jesus as their savior, their redeemer, their God. If they were to ask Jesus about his past, they may be surprised that as that person is now (a mortal human being), Christ once was. This would probably be very surprising and new to them.

However, upon learning more about the life of Christ, they would learn that mortality didn't diminish the divinity of Christ in any way. Because Christ came down into mortality, He has a full understanding of the pains and trials that we face here.

Likewise, the day will come when we will be able to meet our Heavenly Father. When we meet Him, we'll recognize his divinity and perfectness. Heavenly Father has a past (a very long one, for that matter), and the "God was a man" quote implies that Heavenly Father has also faced the trials of mortality. Just as going through mortality doesn't diminish the divinity of Christ, neither do I believe that Heavenly Father's going through mortality doesn't diminish His.

As for other Gods out there, what kind of life God had while a mortal, and other questions, all we have from here on is speculation. God seems to be a fan of eternal families - it would make sense if he's speaking from experience (aka He has a family, including parents, grandparents, and so forth of his own).

Honestly, I think God holds off on telling us because it's not pertinent for us to know right now. Further, perhaps He's saving that conversation for when we can hold it with Him personally in heaven.

[Lilac]

Well it's not in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, or Pearl of Great Price either.

So where does this teaching come from? I'm interested in that.

Someone asked what a Protestant view of God would be? It would be that God is the only god that there is. He is the Only One. There are no other gods; only our Lord. He is the Beginning and End. The Everything. The All. The Alpha and Omega.

A Protestant will stuggle with this LDS concept of there might be many gods but God is our only God that we should worship/know/love/serve. In my understanding and teaching/learning about God, there is no other god existing but Our Lord. If I hear about other gods, I just go blank. I don't know how to describe it any other way. To me, there is no other god but our God.

Unless, UNLESS you are telling me that there are false gods. There are plenty of false gods like in religion X or religion Y. They worship the sun or the moon or some spirit or something that I'm certainly not involved in or bother reading about. So, yeah, there are false gods. But our Lord is the only True God.

I want to quote another post, so I'll post again. I don't know how to quote multiple posts.

Blessings.

[Lilac]

But I think the same holds true. Isn't God "like" us. Aren't we created in his image. Doesn't God know how to do the things we do. How do you think God gained that knoweldge? Just in the same way that I can become like God, God is like me, because he created me that way.

I think your point is perfect, but I don't see how this likeness can only go one way? Can it?

I know we are created in the image of God because the Bible tells me so. I have no Bible verses to support that God was once mortal, so I wouldn't teach that or think that. I can't really make any statement on it.

God knows things because He is God. He is omniscience/all knowing. Omnipotent/all powerful. Omnipresent/all present. I don't think He learned things like me. I think he is God and that is pretty much it.

Uh-oh, work is on the phone. I gotta run.

[clark87]

Good questions, Lilac. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in this area, but I do know a bit, and I'll answer you as best as I know how.

So where does this teaching come from? I'm interested in that.

I'm guessing you're referring to the teachings of there being more than one God? To begin, I'd like to re-emphasis this: most of what church members know on this subject is largely speculation (it really is - we like to believe we know a lot on the subject, but we really don't).

Outside of that one quote "As man is, God once was", most of our knowledge about their being more than one god actually comes from the Bible. I know that in John 10:34, Jesus mentions that there are different definitions for "god". In this, he refers to "gods" as those "whom the word of God came," adding the phrase "and the scriptures cannot be broken". Also, in Psalms 82:6, it reads, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Again, another definition of "gods" as "children of the most high". That's not even going into false gods (idols and such).

You mentioned that you're meeting with the missionaries? If you want to know more scriptures on the matter, look up in the "Topical Guide" in the back of the bible "Man, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father" (I'm not sure if bibles outside of the LDS church would have a topical guide, so you can ask to see the missionary's if you need to). These will point you to a ton of scriptures from the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

Ultimately, all you have to really know is that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are real, and that it is through Jesus Christ that we are saved (and not through any other "gods" or other forces out there in the universe). Are there other gods like Heavenly Father? We really don't know, nor do we really need to know (or else God would have said more about them).

Like many subjects in the gospel, understanding all of this will require study and good prayer. You're just as entitled to recieving revelation from God as any of us.

Good luck, Lilac!

P.S. I'll try to log in later to see if you have any more questions. Let me know if this helped!

Edited October 26, 2009 by clark87

[Lilac]

Thank you Clark.

I am a Christian and probably what most people would describe as "devout". So, Jesus as Savior and God as my God. That's an easy one. I already have a deep faith. So does my husband and that is how we are raising our children.

Which is probably why I want to make sure that I understand the LDS doctrines clearly before I make an committment to it. The missionaires have discussed at length about not over-intellectualizing things and to rely on a direct revelation. I'm with that...somewhat. I have to feel secure that any Christian group that I join has an overall doctrine that is Biblically correct (as best we can figure) and I can feel comfortable saying "I"m LDS".

The missionaries were working on getting me a LDS topical guide to the KJV...I think they ran out or something? Then I had to cancel a meeting and I probably forgot about it the next time I met with them. I will ask them again what happened to that topical guide they were getting for me. Thanks for reminding me. That would be very helpful for me.

Thanks again for the posts. I am reading or will read all of what you guys suggested.

Blessings.

[tubaloth]

So where does this teaching come from? I'm interested in that.

It comes from prophets. Yes Modern day prophets.

I have to feel secure that any Christian group that I join has an overall doctrine that is Biblically correct (as best we can figure)

And I would hope one that is From God?

One thing that is different in the LDS church is that we aren't limited to just the bible. We believe that God has more to teach us then just what is in the bible. Bible is an account of what people learned during that time. We also believe That God teaches the gospel to other nations (reveled his word) and does so now.

A Protestant will struggle with this LDS concept of there might be many gods but God is our only God that we should worship/know/love/serve. In my understanding and teaching/learning about God, there is no other god existing but Our Lord. If I hear about other gods, I just go blank. I don't know how to describe it any other way. To me, there is no other god but our God.

And really there isn't anything wrong with that. Knowing that we can be like God or even that others can be like God doesn't affect who we are! Anything outside our salvation shouldn't matter. You aren't going to have lessons about this subject every week. You might have some refer to this idea ever now again. Thats the length of it. But it is a teaching in the church. Its not taught a lot, because not a lot is know. (about other gods)

I have no Bible verses to support that God was once mortal, so I wouldn't teach that or think that. I can't really make any statement on it.

Really we are kind of dealing with two parts here.

First what does God look like?

Second how does God Act?

What God looks like is probably a key point here (at least it is in my eyes). The LDS Church believes that God has a Physical Body of Flesh and Bones. That God has eyes ears and toes and everything else. So God looks just like we do expect glorified. Jesus Christ is the same way now. He has a Physical Body. Both of them appeared to Joseph Smith.

Knowing that God has a physical body, that he is just like I am. Realizes what I can become. I can become like my father.

Second is how does God act? Now at some point in time God had to learn. That seems like a new idea I know. But thats probably easier to comprehend then some all powerful being. But like I said in my first post we have to separate from how God got to where he is, and where is now. If it took God a trillion years to become Like his Father. That doesn't matter to me. What is important is that our Heavenly Father is God now.

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

I just wanted to pop in and say thank you for your responsess. I looked at them briefly but we are running around cleaning because the missionaries are coming after church and my house is really really trashed. It would be nice if they could sit on the sofa without a doll, lego, Barbie or someone's socks.

Just briefly, I am bothered most by the "God was a man". I just don't see that anywhere in the KJV. It really is a sticking point for me. My husband says "that could be a deal breaker". I do feel better that I don't have to attest to that and there is some room for personal interpretation.

That we can progress and be LIKE God, I'm OK with the word "like" in there. I think we will be God-like in the afterlife. I see references to that in the KJV, how we will be in glory with the Father.

The missionaries have told me to pray and see if I get a revelation. I don't feel I can pray openly and honestly if this is true unless I have a good understanding of LDS doctrine. I know I can't understand everything but I need to understand the big stuff. Maybe that is just me? But I finally figured out this is what I need to do.

Again, thank you for your help.

Many blessings

The way I always reconcile doctrines I've struggled with is by coming up with metaphors, I'm huge on those things.

So many times in my reading of the New Testament I've come across verses naming the followers of Christ "heirs" "heirs with Christ" "Joint-heirs." And I wonder...what does an heir do? Well...he inherits, he gains all that was willed to him/her. And what did Christ gain from the Father? Perfection. Perfection in authority, love, charity, power, and all godliness. If we are joint-heirs with Christ, then we stand to gain the same. But to do so we become like the Messiah, not boastful or prideful in our strengths, but humble and meek, submitting to the Father's will.

Picture it like this:

There is a home, with the father at the head of the home. As child we grow and learn from the father, and obey him and his will. However, eventually we become older, and move out. We create homes of our own, and have children, who will love and obey us. But we still regard our paternal parent as our father, and refer to him as such.

The same is with the gospel. God has given us a home, this earth, over which he is the head. We learn and grow here, obeying him in all things. We believe however that one day we will go out eventually and creates worlds and homes for our own children. Does this mean we forget the Father and his supremacy over us? One may then ask, can a son or daughter forget a loving parent, and cease to acknowledge their love for us? Heaven forbid!

This is a pattern repeated throughout eternity. Whether or not God was once a man like our current selves does not matter, he was still always our God.

Likewise, I don't refer to my dad as "Dave" up until 1990, and suddenly start calling him father afterward. I don't see pictures of him from his adolescence or early adulthood and say "Gee...so that was Dave..." I say "That's my dad."

God was always our God, and always will be. :)

[clark87]

The missionaires have discussed at length about not over-intellectualizing things and to rely on a direct revelation. I'm with that...somewhat. I have to feel secure that any Christian group that I join has an overall doctrine that is Biblically correct (as best we can figure) and I can feel comfortable saying "I"m LDS".

Heh, I can relate to the over-intellectualizing thing. I enjoy studying the scriptures and trying to learn things for myself. However... I've learned that sometimes I can't really come up with a satisfactory answer by my own. There are questions out there that simply finding scriptures or quotes isn't enough to really sate my soul. The time comes when you want to know enough that you start praying to God as if He was there in the room, just pouring out your soul to Him.

It's times like those that you learn that prayer really does work. It's really hard to describe or give it justice (it kind of feels too personal and sacred to fully talk about). Lilac, you genuinely want to learn these things so that you can know you're right with God. When you really get into that prayer, you'll come away feeling far more satisfied than any amount of scriptural references could give you. The missionaries are right - prayer really is the way.

[clark87]

I might recommend that, before praying to know about whether there are other gods out there (or any other complex or deep doctrine), first pray about the basics. Ask God if He really does talk with prophets today, if the message the prophets share really is God's message to the world, and if they're message is something God wants in your life. He cares about you, and he'll let you know all that and so much more. Once you know any of these things, the rest will fall into place - you may not fully understand the more complex doctrines, but you'll at least know God won't let the prophets lead you astray!

[BenRaines]

God being man before God is not LDS doctrine. It was a statement given by a prophet many years ago.

While I believe it as I do a number of other things, that make sense to me. It does not make it doctrine.

Ben Raines

[bytebear]

I always point people who have this question to these scriptures. I think you should read them, study and ponder them, and decide for yourself how it all works.

Topical Guide: Man, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father

[AnthonyB]

I must say this particular doctrinal area still gets me confused.

If exulataton is needed to become a God and exultaton requires both embodiement and marriage, how does that fit in with the three examplesw of the persons of God that we have.

The Holy Spirit has never been embodied nor married.

Jesus was eternal God before he was embodied and scripture never mentions his marital state (although most presume him to be single and given his request during his cruxifiction to ensure John looked after his mum, if he had had a wife surely he would have done the same).

No scripture mentions God the Father being embodied as a mortal, it comes only from the thoughts of one of your latter day prophets.

[FunkyTown]

I know we are created in the image of God because the Bible tells me so. I have no Bible verses to support that God was once mortal, so I wouldn't teach that or think that. I can't really make any statement on it.

God knows things because He is God. He is omniscience/all knowing. Omnipotent/all powerful. Omnipresent/all present. I don't think He learned things like me. I think he is God and that is pretty much it.

Uh-oh, work is on the phone. I gotta run.

Hey, Lilac.

I should point out that Protestants do believe God did become Mortal.

They believe he and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one. Therefore: Mortal.

Now, as to the actual question:

You read those verses and perceive that God was once a sinner like you, correct? You take issue with this because God is perfect, from beginning to end. He is the Alpha and Omega, correct?

And this raises all sorts of sticky issues like: Who was His God? And His God? And His God? Who started it all? Why not worship him?

I ask this because we need a common ground of understanding. I can tell you what Gordon B. Hinckley said about these things, but I'm uncertain it would be helpful until we get to the heart of what you really are concerned about.