Why did satan tempt Adam and Eve to eat the friut?

[Misshalfway]

Satan had no plan. He lied. He sought to deceive, and he succeeded.

I thought he did have a plan. A plan that would enslave people and blind people to worship him forever and then he lied by calling it salvation and eternal happiness. He had no intention of doing anything that would actually save us. He was too big of a whimp.

[Vort]

I thought he did have a plan. A plan that would enslave people and blind people to worship him forever and then he lied by calling it salvation and eternal happiness. He had no intention of doing anything that would actually save us. He was too big of a whimp.

Sure, okay, I agree. His "plan", such as it was, was to destroy the agency of man. That was Satan's "plan". But to suggest that he had an actual "plan" in place of the Father's plan is absurd. He had no plan; he simply wished for the Father's glory and to usurp his position. He wished to destroy the agency of man. If that constitutes "a plan", then I agree, Satan had "a plan".

[Justice]

Wait. I thought that if Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the tree of life AFTER they had partaken of the fruit of good and evil that they would be trapped forever in their sins. So God put a barrier around the tree of life so they couldn't partake and frustrate the plan.

It's a matter of timing.

Think of Lehi and Nephi's dream, where the righteous are partaking of the tree of life.

It is what God wants for us, too... right?

[Misshalfway]

It's a matter of timing.

Think of Lehi and Nephi's dream, where the righteous are partaking of the tree of life.

It is what God wants for us, too... right?

Yes. It's a matter of timing. I see what you meant to say.

[Justice]

Sure, okay, I agree. His "plan", such as it was, was to destroy the agency of man. That was Satan's "plan". But to suggest that he had an actual "plan" in place of the Father's plan is absurd. He had no plan; he simply wished for the Father's glory and to usurp his position. He wished to destroy the agency of man. If that constitutes "a plan", then I agree, Satan had "a plan".

I didn't say it was a good plan, or a plan that could save man. But, he most certainly had a plan that would destroy the agency of man. It is what led him to temp Eve.

[Justice]

Yes. It's a matter of timing. I see what you meant to say.

OK, so do you have an answer to the question I asked?

[Misshalfway]

Sure, okay, I agree. His "plan", such as it was, was to destroy the agency of man. That was Satan's "plan". But to suggest that he had an actual "plan" in place of the Father's plan is absurd. He had no plan; he simply wished for the Father's glory and to usurp his position. He wished to destroy the agency of man. If that constitutes "a plan", then I agree, Satan had "a plan".

I don't know. I tend to think of it as a pretty smart plan. If it wasn't a plan or it wasn't a smart plan, people wouldn't have fallen for it. I think you have to be very intelligent to beguile. I don't think it was just an explosion of wanton desire for power. Kinda reminds me of the son in the Movie "Gladiator".

Yes, "Gladiator" folks. Rated R movie. Get over it.

He wanted the power and wanted the people to love him. But he wasn't very smart. He was easily defeated and he never won the hearts of the people. He only knew how to tantrum when he didn't get it. Not that Satan didn't know how to tantrum.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Vort]

I don't know. I tend to think of it as a pretty smart plan. If it wasn't a plan or it wasn't a smart plan, people wouldn't have fallen for it. I think you have to be very intelligent to beguile.

It comes down to this:

Could any plan save us and give us a chance for exaltation better than the Father's?

Yes / No

If you answer Yes, then you are saying that either:

• God is not all-knowing, since he didn't know which was the most efficient plan to save his children.
• God is not perfectly loving, since he intentionally chose a sub-optimal plan that would not save and/or exalt as many of his children as another plan.
• Both of the above.

If you reject the above, then clearly the answer to the question is "No".

Which means that Satan lied. He did not, in fact, have any "plan of salvation" in competition with the Father.

It is worth noting that the scriptures say nothing of Satan claiming to have "another plan". Rather, Satan tried to usurp Jehovah's role as the Christ, and in doing so modified the Father's plan to bring glory to himself (Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. - Moses 4:1).

I don't think it was just an explosion wanton desire for power.

I would be interested to see your scriptural justification for this view.

Kinda reminds me of the son in the Movie "Gladiator".

Yes, "Gladiator folks". Rated R movie. Get over it.

Never heard of "Gladiator folks", but since many here avoid R-rated movies (myself included), you may have picked an example that won't be meaningful to them.

[Misshalfway]

OK, so do you have an answer to the question I asked?

The answer to these????

I mean didn't God want Adam and Eve to partake of the tree of life after they partook of the forbidden fruit anyway?

What was fundamentally different about Satan's plan, and why did his plan have the power to remove the agency of man (or destroy the agency of man) and make it to where even the great Jehova could no longer save us?

If you would please pass the envelop, I will tap it against my hat.

I believe the answer to the first question is NO. I am not sure the Tree in the garden and the tree in the dream are the same thing exactly as the tree in the dream represented the love of God which isn't confined to eternal life. Why was it ok for A&E to partake of the tree in the garden before the fall? I don't know. Maybe because they were already in the presence of God and this was a symbol of enjoying that blessing. If they were fallen and partook....well, I am not sure I understand that more than what has been explained. That this would freeze them in their sins.

I think God does want us partake of the tree but we can only do so after we obtain a body and die and the effects of the atonement are complete.

Q2: I think the plan was to become the savior and to find a way to avoid having to sacrifice his life. If he were the "savior" it would be more about his merciful granting of salvation. His plan couldn't have worked because it would have robbed justice and made our ability to choose completely irrelevant. In his model, there would have been no need for hell.

[Misshalfway]

It comes down to this:

Could any plan save us and give us a chance for exaltation better than the Father's?

Yes / No

If you answer Yes, then you are saying that either:

• God is not all-knowing, since he didn't know which was the most efficient plan to save his children.
• God is not perfectly loving, since he intentionally chose a sub-optimal plan that would not save and/or exalt as many of his children as another plan.
• Both of the above.

If you reject the above, then clearly the answer to the question is "No".

Which means that Satan lied. He did not, in fact, have any "plan of salvation" in competition with the Father.

It is worth noting that the scriptures say nothing of Satan claiming to have "another plan". Rather, Satan tried to usurp Jehovah's role as the Christ, and in doing so modified the Father's plan to bring glory to himself (Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. - Moses 4:1).

I would be interested to see your scriptural justification for this view.

I didn't say the plan of Satan would actually work. Just that he fashioned it to appear as if it was a viable option.

[Vort]

I didn't say the plan of Satan would actually work. Just that he fashioned it to appear as if it was a viable option.

Miss½, I'm interested to know what you meant when you wrote:

I tend to think of it as a pretty smart plan. If it wasn't a plan or it wasn't a smart plan, people wouldn't have fallen for it. I think you have to be very intelligent to beguile.

In what way was "the plan" (if we assume there was such a thing) "smart"? Do you mean it was beguiling? Granted, but that doesn't make it particularly clever. Eve was deceived by a simple denial of truth: "Thou shalt not surely die". As recent and historical election returns clearly demonstrate, transparent and hamfisted lies can be exceedingly effective.

[Misshalfway]

I wrote my thoughts in another post. I think the plan was to get the glory without having to give the sacrifice. He was a big fat whimp. He didn't want to have to die or experience pain.

It sounds like what you are saying is that he didn't have a plan. I think he thought it all through very carefully down to how he would present it and sell it. I think after his failure and subsequent tantrum, he changed his efforts to thwarting the plan of God directly. I think you were right that he lied, but not about having a plan. Just about having a plan that worked and one that brought happiness.

You might not agree that he was clever. But considering how successful the dude has become, I am arguing the contrary.

[Vort]

I wrote my thoughts in another post. I think the plan was to get the glory without having to give the sacrifice. He was a big fat whimp. He didn't want to have to die or experience pain.

It sounds like what you are saying is that he didn't have a plan. I think he thought it all through very carefully down to how he would present it and sell it. I think after his failure and subsequent tantrum, he changed his efforts to thwarting the plan of God directly. I think you were right that he lied, but not about having a plan. Just about having a plan that worked and one that brought happiness.

You might not agree that he was clever. But considering how successful the dude has become, I am arguing the contrary.

I am not arguing that Satan is not clever. I don't understand what you mean by "Satan's plan". You say he had a plan that he had all thought out, even though it wouldn't work.

So then...

Let's say that I start talking to my friends and convince them to invest in my great new plan. This plan, I tell them, will make you money FOR SURE! Because I have a magical stock investment scheme that ALWAYS WORKS! So if you just give me all your money, I'll make us all rich beyond imagination!

That kind of plan?

Because if so, I would argue that there is nothing "smart" or "clever" about the "plan". It's simply a lie.

So what is it, exactly, that you think must have been "smart" or "clever" about Satan's supposed "plan"? We already agree that (assuming it existed at all) the plan would not work. What's the cleverness? That he lied convincingly? How would this be different from his blatant, hamfisted, yet effective lie to Eve, "Thou shalt not surely die"?

[Misshalfway]

Go read the first line of my post again while I roll my eyes up toward the ceiling and pat you on the shoulder because I know you can't help yourself.

[Vort]

Go read the first line of my post again while I roll my eyes up toward the ceiling and pat you on the shoulder because I know you can't help yourself.

"I think the plan was to get the glory without having to give the sacrifice."

I'm still not seeing your point. How is this a "plan"? How would Satan acquire glory without sacrifice?

[Misshalfway]

It's too bad we can't drink beer, cuz I think I need one.

[Misshalfway]

The plan WAS to lie, to succer, to cheat, to flatter. Geesh!

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am not arguing that Satan is not clever. I don't understand what you mean by "Satan's plan". You say he had a plan that he had all thought out, even though it wouldn't work.

So then...

Let's say that I start talking to my friends and convince them to invest in my great new plan. This plan, I tell them, will make you money FOR SURE! Because I have a magical stock investment scheme that ALWAYS WORKS! So if you just give me all your money, I'll make us all rich beyond imagination!

That kind of plan?

Because if so, I would argue that there is nothing "smart" or "clever" about the "plan". It's simply a lie.

So what is it, exactly, that you think must have been "smart" or "clever" about Satan's supposed "plan"? We already agree that (assuming it existed at all) the plan would not work. What's the cleverness? That he lied convincingly? How would this be different from his blatant, hamfisted, yet effective lie to Eve, "Thou shalt not surely die"?

I think it is possible though to believe in a lie after it is said so many times and argued over. I agree that it started out as a lie, it still is a lie, but in Satan's mind it could be 'right' in his mind. And now he has got in his head "I'll show you my idea was better by destroying yours." Even though that is a lie too, he can't destroy Gods plan. I think this is why he still presents this idea in many other circles. It has even been brought up in this forum several times in different fashions since I've been a member, questions like "what if we only had 'good' choices" and 'is Satan necessary?"

I don't think its smart or clever, just the idea itself is appealing to many. Its an attractive concept that everyone gets everything without trying even though it is impossible. Kind of like the idea that stimulus money will turn the economy around. It becomes so attractive people don't think through the implications of it, so it becomes a lie.

[Just_A_Guy]

Questions for Justice:

1. What is it about "death" that makes our redemption from sin possible? And if death is essential to the salvation of fallen man, what then of those few individuals (Moses, Elijah, John the Beloved the 3 Nephites, possibly Alma the Younger himself) who will never taste of death? Are they then not to be saved?

2. Why was the tree of life placed in the garden in the first place?

3. Why did Satan not anticipate that God would put a physical barrier between fallen man and the tree of life? Isn't that kind of elementary?

It's a matter of timing.

Think of Lehi and Nephi's dream, where the righteous are partaking of the tree of life.

It is what God wants for us, too... right?

We know from 1 Nephi 11:22 and 25 that Nephi's tree of life was a symbol for the love of God. Is the symbolism behind the tree of life in the Eden narrative similar? How do we know?

[Snow]

Satan had no plan.

Well, you may be correct but the Church of Jesus Christ disagrees with you.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Book of Mormon Principles: Shunning Satan’s Snares

[Vort]

Well, you may be correct but the Church of Jesus Christ disagrees with you.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Book of Mormon Principles: Shunning Satan’s Snares

Snow, as a general rule I ignore you, but I must admit I am surprised that you claim I am in disagreement with the Church of Jesus Christ, citing as your proof an Ensign article, yet you claim that Nephi murdered Laban, in clear defiance of the teachings of the Book of Mormon. I see a major disconnect there. But I am sure you see no conflict, and I'm not very interested in engaging you in discussion on the matter.

[Snow]

Snow, as a general rule I ignore you,

Yes, generally, unless you count the numerous and continual and repeated instances where you don't.

but I must admit I am surprised that you claim I am in disagreement with the Church of Jesus Christ, citing as your proof an Ensign article,

Okay, I guess you could argue that despite the Church publishing the article and posting it on it's official website that it doesn't really believe it, but frankly that sounds like a very weak argument.

yet you claim that Nephi murdered Laban, in clear defiance of the teachings of the Book of Mormon.

That's factually untrue. The Book of Mormon specifically say that Nephi killed Laban by chopping off his head (definition - murder: 1.To kill (another human) unlawfully.2. To kill brutally or inhumanly. - American Heritage Dictionary). Perhaps you are arguing that chopping off someone's head is really humane and not brutal. That would be an even weaker argument.

I see a major disconnect there.

I am curious to know how my views on Laban relate to your disagreement with the Church about Satan.

But I am sure you see no conflict, and I'm not very interested in engaging you in discussion on the matter.

... as evidenced by your post trying to engage me in a discussion. Okay.

[Vort]

I really need to learn:

• to follow the promptings of the Spirit when it tells me to do something, and also when it tells me to shut up
• not to post after about 10:00 pm or when stressed (or especially both)
• when I can't say something nice to someone, don't say anything

My apologies to all who read what I had originally posted in this spot, and especially to Snow. You are indeed my brother. And I cannot possibly make any reasonable judgment about your fitness as a person based on the doings of an internet chat list. Forgive me my rash words if you read them.

My comments about "murder" stand: You are mistaken from a purely definitional standpoint. Following the direct commandment of God cannot be considered "cruel" or "brutal" or "lacking compassion" or any of the other definitions of "inhuman" given by your preferred dictionary. But as you surely will not accept this line of reasoning, you are welcome to any final statements on the matter. I won't respond, but not because you are unworthy of response; rather, in my personal self-improvement program outlined above, I am endeavoring to follow #3.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Vort

[Justice]

From President Hinckley:

Modern revelation gives additional light (see D&C 76:2529), as does the book of Moses (see Moses 4:14), which tells of Satan's plan to destroy the agency of man.

Entire article:

President Gordon B. Hinckley, "War and Peace," <em>Ensign,</em> May 2003

Whether you believe it or not, or understand it or not, or agree or not, Satan had a plan:

Moses 4:

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

We see that his plan wasn't going to work. But, he did seek to gain God's own power, in addition to destroying man's agency. You don't just show up and decide to try to take away God's power... you show up with a plan that you think might work. I don't think you're giving Lucifer enough credit for his intelligence and determination.

If he didn't have a "plan" crafted and presented to others, how did he draw a third part of the hosts of heaven?

[Justice]

Questions for Justice:

1. What is it about "death" that makes our redemption from sin possible? And if death is essential to the salvation of fallen man, what then of those few individuals (Moses, Elijah, John the Beloved the 3 Nephites, possibly Alma the Younger himself) who will never taste of death? Are they then not to be saved?

2. Why was the tree of life placed in the garden in the first place?

3. Why did Satan not anticipate that God would put a physical barrier between fallen man and the tree of life? Isn't that kind of elementary?

We know from 1 Nephi 11:22 and 25 that Nephi's tree of life was a symbol for the love of God. Is the symbolism behind the tree of life in the Eden narrative similar? How do we know?

Oh wow! Now your talkin'

I can't wait to get back from work today... I'm going to sit myself down right here and make every attempt to answer these questions.

Very good, JaG!