Talk On Sunday

[thatonegirl]

i have to give a talk on sunday and it is on the topic follow the propeht and i have no clue what i should do and i've come up with a blank paper after days of thinking about it.. any ideas?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by thatonegirl@Oct 17 2005, 06:09 PM

i have to give a talk on sunday and it is on the topic follow the propeht and i have no clue what i should do and i've come up with a blank paper after days of thinking about it.. any ideas?

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There are lots of things that come to my mind... but the one that stands out in my mind is the parable found in the last page of section 101 of the D&C about the tower and the watchmen...

If we don't build the tower and have the watchmen... the prophet... the enemy can come in and destroy us... each personally... and as a church as a whole...

So it is good we have the tower and the watchman... but what good are they if we don't listen to the warnings being sounded by the watchman/prophet...

[Snow]

Originally posted by thatonegirl@Oct 17 2005, 04:09 PM

i have to give a talk on sunday and it is on the topic follow the propeht and i have no clue what i should do and i've come up with a blank paper after days of thinking about it.. any ideas?

←

Yes - I think you should include what the prophets and apostles have to say on the subject:

President Joseph F. Smith said, "We talk of obedience, but do we require any man or woman to ignorantly obey the counsels that are given? Do the First Presidency require it? No, never." (Journal of Discources (JD) 16:248)

Apostle Charles W. Penrose, who would later serve as counselor to President Smith, declared: "President Wilford Woodruff is a man of wisdom and experience, and we respect him, but we do not believe his personal views or utterances are revelations from God; and when 'Thus saith the Lord', comes from him, the saints investigate it: they do not shut their eyes and take it down like a pill." (Millennial Star 54:191)

"And none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God... would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves." (Millennial Star, vol.14 #38, pp. 593-95)

Brigham Young said:

"What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)

"How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves." (JD 4:368)

"I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord." (JD 3:45)

"...Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold sceptres of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer." (JD 1:312)

"President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel [see, for example, verses 9-10: 'If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing...the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him.']...said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church -- that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls -- applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall -- that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 237-38)

George Q. Cannon, Counselor to three Church Presidents, expressed it thus: "Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone;" (Millennial Star 53:658-59, quoted in Gospel Truth, 1:319)

[Snow]

...cont.

Perhaps the best of all comes from Elder Hugh B. Brown of the Council of the Twelve in his Final Testimony from his book An Abundant Life:

There seems today to be a tendency toward flippant thinking, a lack of thought. There seems to be a tendency to belittle what our fathers and mothers thought because we feel we have made some progress scientifically. We are too ready to conclude that everything from past generations is now folly and that our main duty today, as far as the past is concerned, is to get away from it. There is not enough of the attitude of the sincere investigator among us. When we come into a new field of research that will challenge our due and honest consideration, we should be warned against coming too quickly to a conclusion, of forming a decision too hastily. We should be scientific -- that is, open-minded, approaching new problems without prejudice, deferring a decision until all the facts are in. Some say that the open-minded leave room for doubt. But I believe we should doubt some of the things we hear. Doubt has a place if it can stir in one an interest to go out and find the truth for one's self.

I should like to awaken in everyone a desire to investigate, to make an independent study of religion, and to know for themselves whether or not the teachings of the Mormon church are true. I should like to see everyone prepared to defend the religion of his or her parents, not because it was the religion of our fathers and mothers but because they have found it to be the true religion. If one approaches it with an open mind, with a desire to know the truth, and if one questions with a sincere heart what one hears from time to time, he or she will be on the road to growth and service. There are altogether too many people in the world who are willing to accept as true whatever is printed in a book or delivered from a pulpit. Their faith never goes below the surface soil of authority. I plead with everyone I meet that they may drive their faith down through that soil and get hold of the solid truth, that they may be able to withstand the winds and storm of indecision and of doubt, of opposition and persecution. Then, and only then, will we be able to defend our religion successfully. When I speak of defending our religion, I do not mean such defense as an army makes on the battlefield but the defense of a clean and upright and virtuous life lived in harmony with an intelligent belief and understanding of the gospel.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has this practical view of religion: that religion should help us here and now; that we should not have to wait until after we are dead to get any benefits; that religion as understood and applied makes men and women more successful, happier, more contented, gives them aspiration and hope; that religion is the vitalizing force, religion is that which gives men and women an ideal, an ideal so high that it may be seen from both sides of the valley of life.

The religion of the Latter-day Saints teaches youth that as children of God, they are expected to acquire experience as they go through life and that experience will ripen into knowledge, that knowledge will ripen into wisdom and intelligence, and that their greatness will be in proportion to their intelligence. So the religion of the Latter-day Saints is not just theory from a book or taught in church. The gospel is a plan of which God is the author, a plan of which we are all necessary parts. My religion sweetens my life. My religion, if properly lived, helps me to be a better friend to my associates, a better neighbor, a better citizen, a better father, a better man. If I am sincere in it, my religion forbids me to do to my neighbors what I would not want them to do to me, either in word or act. My religion, in other words, is that which is the greatest part of me.

I have been very grateful that the freedom, dignity, and integrity of the individual are basic in church doctrine. We are free to think and express our opinions in the church. Fear will not stifle thought. God himself refuses to trammel free agency even though its exercise sometimes teaches painful lessons. Both creative science and revealed religion find their fullest and truest expression in the climate of freedom.

As we all proceed to make our individual "declarations of independence," I hope we can distinguish between liberty and license, that we can realize that freedom is only a blessing if it is accompanied by wisdom and intelligence. At the same time, we all need to resist the down-drag of mental laziness which sometimes leads to the premature hardening of the intellectual arteries. And I would especially urge all of us to avoid sluggishness of spirit, which is the worst kind of lethargy. Some people are phlegmatic to a degree that would make a turtle seem intolerably vivacious. I admire men and women who have developed the questing spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent -- if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression.

Both science and religion beget humility. Scientists and teachers of religion disagree among themselves on theological and other subjects. Even in our own church men and women take issue with one another and contend for their own interpretations. This free exchange of ideas is not to be deplored as long as men and women remain humble and teachable. Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences. We should all be interested in academic research. We must go out on the research front and continue to explore the vast unknown. We should be in the forefront of learning in all fields, for revelation does not come only through the prophet of God nor only directly from heaven in visions or dreams. Revelation may come in the laboratory, out of the test tube, out of the thinking mind and the inquiring soul, out of search and research and prayer and inspiration.

We should be dauntless in our pursuit of truth and resist all demands for unthinking conformity. No one would have us become mere tape recorders of other people's thoughts. We should be modest and teachable and seek to know the truth by study and faith. There have been times when progress was halted by thought control. Tolerance and truth demand that all be heard and that competing ideas be tested against each other so that the best, which might not always be our own, can prevail.

Knowledge is the most complete and dependable when all points of view are heard. We are in a world of restlessness and skepticism, where old things are not only challenged but often disappear, but also a world of miraculous achievement, undreamed of accomplishment, and terrifying power. Science offers wonderful tools for helping to create the brotherhood of humanity on earth, but the cement of brotherhood does not come from any laboratory. It must come from the heart and mind and spirit of men and women.

We should continue to become acquainted with human experience through history and philosophy, science and poetry, art and religion... One of the most important things in the world is freedom of the mind; from this all other freedoms spring. Such freedom is necessarily dangerous, for one cannot think right without running the risk of thinking wrong, but generally more thinking is the antidote for the evils that spring from wrong thinking. More thinking is required, and we should all exercise our God-given right to think and be unafraid to express our opinions, with proper respect for those to whom we talk and proper acknowledgment of our own shortcomings.

We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it. The church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members are orthodox or heterodox as it is that they shall have thoughts. One may memorize much without learning anything. In this age of speed there seems to be little time for meditation.

And while all members should respect, support, and heed the teachings of the authorities of the church, no one should accept a statement and base his or her testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he or she has, under mature examination, found it to be true and worthwhile; then one's logical deductions may be confirmed by the spirit of revelation to his or her spirit, because real conversion must come from within...

[StrawberryFields]

HOW NICE!!!!!!!

I hope I don't get asked to talk in the near future but if I do I will know where to go to get info.

[Ray]

I recommend that you offer a silent personal prayer before you start speaking and then follow your heart as you talk about why you think it is important to follow a prophet of God.

And if it helps you to get started thinking about "why" it is important to follow a prophet, ask yourself some questions, such as:

What is a prophet of God?

What makes someone a prophet of God?

How many prophets of God are there?

How many prophets of God have there been?

How can I know who is a prophet of God?

Isn't it possible for me to be a prophet of God?

If I were to receive revelation from God, would that make me a prophet of God?

Could a or another prophet of God know things that I don't know?

How could I be different from a prophet of God?

How are prophets of God different from each other?

Why should I follow any prophet of God?

What has God said about following His prophets?

Anyway, I think that should be enough to get you going, and as I said, I think the best talk you could give would be to talk about why YOU think YOU should follow a prophet of God.

[thatonegirl]

this is what i have come up with... i don't' know if i need to change it though because in the fundamentals i used scriptures and quotes he used just not all of it and so i might need to change it up.. who knows? what do you think?

What is a prophet? In the true to the faith book it says “the prophet is the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church.”

“Your greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord Warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall. He promises great blessings to those who follow the President of the Church.”

President Ezra Taft Benson has given us fundamentals in following the prophet.

--The first was: the prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

In D&C 21:4-6 it says “Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from my own mouth, in all patience and faith. For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.”

--The Prophet will never lead the church astray. President Marion G. Romney had an experience with President Heber J. Grant. He said “I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home… Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep you eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’”

--The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know. President Harold B. Lee Said “You many not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may conflict with your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life… Your safety and ours depends on whether or not we follow…”

--The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly. President Benson said himself “As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed to his words but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out. As we come closer to the Lord’s second coming you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them.”

Popularity does not decide what is right and wrong. Being immodest and doing drugs might be the popular thing to do, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it is right.

--The prophet and the presidency –the living prophet and the first presidency – follow them and be blessed – reject them and suffer President. While giving his own talk President Benson told of how Harold B. Lee relates this incident from Church history:

“The story is told in the early days of the Church—particularly, I think, at Kirtland, Ohio—where some of the leading brethren in the presiding councils of the Church met secretly and tried to scheme as to how they could get rid of the Prophet Joseph’s leadership. They made the mistake of inviting Brigham Young to one of these secret meetings. He rebuked them, after he had heard the purpose of their meeting. This is part of what he said: ‘You cannot destroy the appointment of a prophet of God, but you can cut the thread that binds you to the prophet of God, and sink yourselves to hell.’ ”

I know that President Gordon B. Hinckley is a prophet of God. And I believe everything he says to be the Lord’s words and what he wants us to hear. I know that if I follow what he says that I will be blessed. And I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

That was cool!!! :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by thatonegirl@Oct 19 2005, 04:48 PM

this is what i have come up with... i don't' know if i need to change it though because in the fundamentals i used scriptures and quotes he used just not all of it and so i might need to change it up.. who knows? what do you think?

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Clear. Succinct. Backed up by scriptures and personal testimony. I think an investigator of the church hearing that talk would take the opportunity to really think about the need for prophets, knowing for ourselves if a prophet IS God's prophet, and the importance of following him.

Snow's point is well taken (and WELL documented!). We really do need to pray to know if a man is speaking for God. You might add that in the church (and perhaps personally) it is important to honor and respect the mantle (or calling/authority) and not the man. After all, to err is human, and if we base our testimony of a prophet on his personal life and mistakes, that testimony will not stand (nor should it).

Basically we ought to just be practical. As the saying goes, "Trust God but lock your car." We would do well to study the prophet's teachings and confirm their validity for ourselves through prayer and meditation. Great talk, hope it goes well for you!

[Snow]

thatonegirl,

I misunderstood. I thought you were looking to follow the prophet's advice that we think for ourselves instead of simply accepting whatever pill we are told to swallow. Now I see that you are thinking more along the lines of, "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done;" that way we needn't trouble ourselves with the bother of using our own brain.

In that light, here are something more appropriate:

""Remember that faith and doubt cannot exist in the same mind at the same time, for one will dispel the other.

Should doubt knock at your doorway, just say to those skeptical, disturbing, rebellious thoughts: 'I propose to stay with my faith, with the faith of my people. I know that happiness and contentment are there, and I forbid you, agnostic, doubting thoughts, to destroy the house of my faith. I acknowledge that I do not understand the processes of creation, but I accept the fact of it. I grant that I cannot explain the miracles of the Bible, and I do not attempt to do so, but I accept God's word. I wasn't with Joseph, but I believe him. My faith did not come to me through science, and I will not permit so-called science to destroy it'." President Monson

Just shut your eyes , turn off your brain and follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet.

"One man remains beyond all criticism, and that is the prophet. This is because everyone senses and knows: He is always right, and he will always be right. The gospel is anchored in uncritical loyalty, in a surrender to the prophet."

Of course that last quote was Rudolph Hess and he was referring to Adolph Hitler (Billions and Billions, Carl Sagan p. 158), but the principle is the same so feel free to use it.

[pushka]

To be fair Snow...and believe me, I agree with you regarding questioning the validity of the Prophet's words...Thatonegirl, if I recall, is quite young...just late teens? Perhaps she doesn't feel that she could offer a more balanced argument, as she hasn't had the experiences yet that you have, to make her feel that strong...she might fear criticism?

Good luck anyway, with your talk Thatonegirl...If you can dare to include some of Snow's arguments, then it would make for a more balanced talk...

[Ray]

Snow,

I think I would really appreciate hearing or seeing a talk from you about following prophets, from a personal perspective, instead of merely quoting what some other people have said. You know, a heartfelt talk, about whether or not you feel it is important to follow prophets, and to what extent you should follow them, and whether or not you do.

And the reason I’d like to hear from you is because from some what you write I often get the idea that you believe you can tell when and when not to follow or listen to prophets of God, and I don’t really know if you do.

And btw, when I say prophets, I’m referring to people who are members of the First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and other General Authorities, both past and present, as well as other people who you might discover to be true prophets of God such as some good bishops or stake presidents or other leaders you know.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 19 2005, 08:10 PM

Just shut your eyes , turn off your brain and follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet.

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That was a little overkill Snow. Geez, the girl's just giving a talk. Why can't you let this issue go? Did a family member leave the church because of a quote from the Journal of Discourses? No one in this thread said not to pray to know if a prophet is of God, c'mon. Anyway, good luck with the talk Thatonegirl, I think what you have so far is great! :)

[Snow]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 20 2005, 04:56 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Snow@Oct 19 2005, 08:10 PM

Just shut your eyes , turn off your brain and follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet.

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That was a little overkill Snow. Geez, the girl's just giving a talk. Why can't you let this issue go? Did a family member leave the church because of a quote from the Journal of Discourses?

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No, I am just saddened that the emphasis in today's church has strayed so far from what it was in the day of Joseph Smith, and needlessly so. It's rammed down your throat that the Church is true from the time kids are big enough to walk up to the podium so their dad can whisper in their ear during Fast and Testimony "I know the Church is true.

That's a farce. The kid knows no such thing. It's dishonest. It smacks of the heavy handed, degenerate, apostate, dogmatic, universal church Joseph Smith was warned against.

"Follow the Prophet" is pure inculcation. The 14 fundamentals of following a prophet are more of the same. It all saps the vitality of independent inquiry and revelation. Sure you may say that one must pray for his own assurances but you would only accept answers that match the prophets - you would not accept anybody's personal revelation unless it was lock-step behind the orthodoxy.

That kind of mindless goosestepping weakens the Church, not strenghtens it.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 21 2005, 09:32 PM-->

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 20 2005, 04:56 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Snow@Oct 19 2005, 08:10 PM

Just shut your eyes , turn off your brain and follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet.

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That was a little overkill Snow. Geez, the girl's just giving a talk. Why can't you let this issue go? Did a family member leave the church because of a quote from the Journal of Discourses?

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No, I am just saddened that the emphasis in today's church has strayed so far from what it was in the day of Joseph Smith, and needlessly so. It's rammed down your throat that the Church is true from the time kids are big enough to walk up to the podium so their dad can whisper in their ear during Fast and Testimony "I know the Church is true.

That's a farce. The kid knows no such thing. It's dishonest. It smacks of the heavy handed, degenerate, apostate, dogmatic, universal church Joseph Smith was warned against.

"Follow the Prophet" is pure inculcation. The 14 fundamentals of following a prophet are more of the same. It all saps the vitality of independent inquiry and revelation. Sure you may say that one must pray for his own assurances but you would only accept answers that match the prophets - you would not accept anybody's personal revelation unless it was lock-step behind the orthodoxy.

That kind of mindless goosestepping weakens the Church, not strenghtens it.

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I totally disagree with your take on this.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 21 2005, 07:35 PM

I totally disagree with your take on this.

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So. I totally disagree with your disagreeability.

You go ahead and raise your kids to follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet (he knows the way) and I will raise my children to be educated, independant decision makers who take in art, philosophy, science, religion and are capable of making informed reasonable comparisons and decisions. God gave them a brain and the tools to learn and good golly I intend to raise them to use their brains and their tools as well as to accept the promptings of the spirit.

Here's a prime example right from this board, of Mormons that can't think their way out of a wet paper bag. Remember the discussion of Brigham Young who stated that blacks would not recieve the priesthood in mortality? And yet blacks did in fact recieve the priesthood in mortality. At least 2 posters were so dangerously blinded by "follow the prophet" that they maintained that Brigham Young was not wrong.

It's incredible. That is - it is durn near unbelievable that Mormons exist with such poor ability to think yet it's what's drummed into their heads from the moment they are old enough to get up on the podium and parrot back whatever "testimony" their mom tells them to say.

You disagreeing means nothing. Make a counterpoint if you have one.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 19 2005, 06:09 PM

Basically we ought to just be practical. As the saying goes, "Trust God but lock your car." We would do well to study the prophet's teachings and confirm their validity for ourselves through prayer and meditation.....

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AK~ I so agree, we need to study and confirm for ourselves. Key words people FOR OURSELVES. God gave us the power to think, and to apply thought, and I so believe in the promptings of the spirit.....

I think Snow's statement echo's my own also, when he said:

"God gave them a brain and the tools to learn and good golly I intend to raise them to use their brains and their tools as well as to accept the promptings of the spirit."

We can't be puppets led on by a string, we need to exercise that God given ability to think and to reason, and I'll stop now....before I have to give a Sunday talk.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 23 2005, 12:26 PM

You go ahead and raise your kids to follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet (he knows the way) and I will raise my children to be educated, independant decision makers who take in art, philosophy, science, religion and are capable of making informed reasonable comparisons and decisions. God gave them a brain and the tools to learn and good golly I intend to raise them to use their brains and their tools as well as to accept the promptings of the spirit.

=

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Snow, just because some well-meaning mother marches her kids up to the podium and whispers into their ears, "I know the church is true," doesn't mean you're accurate in projecting that mindset onto me. I'm glad the prophet has come out and said testimonies ought to be independent, non-coached and voluntary sharings. I think it's great that parents teach their kids the church is true, I just don't need them to do it in sacrament meeting is all.

Because I believe the church is true and we are led by a prophet of God, I will teach my children that. Then I'll teach them WHY I believe that (enter scripture reading). Then I'll teach them HOW I came to believe that (prayer/testing the doctrine by living it). Then I'll encourage THEM to find out for themselves whether it's true or not. If that's neo-naziism, I'm guilty as charged.

You said something like, "Of course you'll ask God if a prophet is speaking the truth, but you won't accept any answer that is out of line with the prophet's teachings."

The great thing is Snow, I don't have to worry about that possibility. I don't believe the Lord will ever let the prophet/president of the LDS church tell me to do or not do something THAT WILL ENDANGER MY SALVATION. That's the key. If Brigham Young had said, "Unless you preach that blacks won't get the priesthood in this life, you cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom!" I would have a problem with that. He just never said it, and when all's said and done, Snow, it's my salvation that matters. The prophets are/were human, prone to mistakes and personal opinions. I am fine with that.

When I say pray to know if a prophet is speaking for God, I mean specifically when his teachings effect my personal salvation. That may seem minimalistic, but that's all I rely on the prophet for, in that respect...guiding me to salvation. I may agree with him politically, culturally, in terms of sports or entertainment. But I may not. What I want to be sure of is that I agree with him concerning the requirements for salvation in God's kingdom if he claims to teach such.

In that respect, whether I believe B.Young taught that Adam is God (and I do not, based on reading his statement, but I digress), or that when the saints return to missouri there won't be a yellow dog to wag its tail due to destruction, or that blacks wouldn't receive the priesthood in this life...none of these things are directions on the straight and narrow path to salvation, and hence, I am not bound nor do I expect others to bind themselves to every single statement of a prophet.

The prophet's role, in my mind, is as a guide in Zion as relates to eternal salvation. Whether they thought we would put a man on the moon or not doesn't concern me, UNLESS THEY SAID THAT ANYONE WHO BELIEVES MAN WOULD GET TO THE MOON IS GOING TO BE DAMNED. I really haven't found too many "pet doctrines" of the prophets that they combine with "believe it or you'll be damned" statements.

That's my point. I don't believe or expect prophets to be experts in biology, anatomy, political science, art, history, government, technology or psychology, et al. What I DO expect of a prophet of God is that he teach the specific requirements for returning to live with God in eternal bliss. All else is unimportant to me, and if people think that prophets are correct about every field of knowledge they speak about, then yes, that is absurd to teach a child to "follow the prophet in art, science and history." But by all means, follow the prophet to salvation. That's my personal creed, Snow. Is that so extreme?

[Jason]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 23 2005, 09:53 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Snow@Oct 23 2005, 12:26 PM

You go ahead and raise your kids to follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet (he knows the way) and I will raise my children to be educated, independant decision makers who take in art, philosophy, science, religion and are capable of making informed reasonable comparisons and decisions. God gave them a brain and the tools to learn and good golly I intend to raise them to use their brains and their tools as well as to accept the promptings of the spirit.

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Snow, just because some well-meaning mother marches her kids up to the podium and whispers into their ears, "I know the church is true," doesn't mean you're accurate in projecting that mindset onto me. I'm glad the prophet has come out and said testimonies ought to be independent, non-coached and voluntary sharings. I think it's great that parents teach their kids the church is true, I just don't need them to do it in sacrament meeting is all.

Because I believe the church is true and we are led by a prophet of God, I will teach my children that. Then I'll teach them WHY I believe that (enter scripture reading). Then I'll teach them HOW I came to believe that (prayer/testing the doctrine by living it). Then I'll encourage THEM to find out for themselves whether it's true or not. If that's neo-naziism, I'm guilty as charged.

You said something like, "Of course you'll ask God if a prophet is speaking the truth, but you won't accept any answer that is out of line with the prophet's teachings."

The great thing is Snow, I don't have to worry about that possibility. I don't believe the Lord will ever let the prophet/president of the LDS church tell me to do or not do something THAT WILL ENDANGER MY SALVATION. That's the key. If Brigham Young had said, "Unless you preach that blacks won't get the priesthood in this life, you cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom!" I would have a problem with that. He just never said it, and when all's said and done, Snow, it's my salvation that matters. The prophets are/were human, prone to mistakes and personal opinions. I am fine with that.

When I say pray to know if a prophet is speaking for God, I mean specifically when his teachings effect my personal salvation. That may seem minimalistic, but that's all I rely on the prophet for, in that respect...guiding me to salvation. I may agree with him politically, culturally, in terms of sports or entertainment. But I may not. What I want to be sure of is that I agree with him concerning the requirements for salvation in God's kingdom if he claims to teach such.

In that respect, whether I believe B.Young taught that Adam is God (and I do not, based on reading his statement, but I digress), or that when the saints return to missouri there won't be a yellow dog to wag its tail due to destruction, or that blacks wouldn't receive the priesthood in this life...none of these things are directions on the straight and narrow path to salvation, and hence, I am not bound nor do I expect others to bind themselves to every single statement of a prophet.

The prophet's role, in my mind, is as a guide in Zion as relates to eternal salvation. Whether they thought we would put a man on the moon or not doesn't concern me, UNLESS THEY SAID THAT ANYONE WHO BELIEVES MAN WOULD GET TO THE MOON IS GOING TO BE DAMNED. I really haven't found too many "pet doctrines" of the prophets that they combine with "believe it or you'll be damned" statements.

That's my point. I don't believe or expect prophets to be experts in biology, anatomy, political science, art, history, government, technology or psychology, et al. What I DO expect of a prophet of God is that he teach the specific requirements for returning to live with God in eternal bliss. All else is unimportant to me, and if people think that prophets are correct about every field of knowledge they speak about, then yes, that is absurd to teach a child to "follow the prophet in art, science and history." But by all means, follow the prophet to salvation. That's my personal creed, Snow. Is that so extreme?

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More like a Roman Catholic who accepts the words of the Pope spoken ex cathedra.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 23 2005, 11:48 PM

More like a Roman Catholic who accepts the words of the Pope spoken ex cathedra.

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Pretty close. I don't think the prophet is infallible. Obviously prophets and apostles have apostatized (in LDS context), so they're fallible. I do think the Lord will make good on his promise to remove any prophet who seeks to lead his church astray.

So by analogy, if the church is a car and the prophets are like tires, I'm saying our car won't ever get a flat tire...why? Not because the tires (prophets) are perfect or infallible, but because the Lord will "change the tire" before it goes flat.

I guess you could call words spoken by a prophet in that context sub fides, for "under promise."

[Jason]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 24 2005, 01:59 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Oct 23 2005, 11:48 PM

More like a Roman Catholic who accepts the words of the Pope spoken ex cathedra.

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Pretty close. I don't think the prophet is infallible. Obviously prophets and apostles have apostatized (in LDS context), so they're fallible. I do think the Lord will make good on his promise to remove any prophet who seeks to lead his church astray.

So by analogy, if the church is a car and the prophets are like tires, I'm saying our car won't ever get a flat tire...why? Not because the tires (prophets) are perfect or infallible, but because the Lord will "change the tire" before it goes flat.

I guess you could call words spoken by a prophet in that context sub fides, for "under promise."

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Actually my comparison is closer than you think. Infallibility only applies to spiritual teachings on matters of faith and morals that are spoken officially. All other matters of opinion in any area is not part of the Magesterium of the Pope. Hence the term ex cathedra (from the Chair of St. Peter) means only that which is spoken in official capacity.

Though Mormons have not defined this as precisely, I think they would generally agree on the definition.

[Ray]

There is a difference between speaking in an official capacity and speaking the word of God.

For instance, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, President Hinckley has a position entitling him to speak to us [all other members of the Church] as the leader of the Church, as we [all other members of the Church] are obligated to follow President Hinckley, because he is the President of the Church. If we don’t do that, we might as well cancel or withdraw our membership from the Church and join some other church with a leader we are willing to support.

But that’s just from the official perspective, looking at the Prophet as merely the President of the Church.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also sustain President Hinckley as the Prophet of the Church, meaning that we [the members] sustain President Hinckley as the person the Lord speaks with when He desires to reveal a matter concerning the entire Church.

Or in other words, when we [the members of the Church] say we should follow the Prophet, we are saying that we should follow the person our Lord has placed in the leadership position of His Church, which is more than saying that we should merely follow a man who is the President of the Church.

Or in other words, we are saying follow the Prophet, not follow the President… although we should also follow the man because he is the President of our organization.

And btw, to those who don't know, I testify that God presides over the First Presidency of the Church, and that the First Presidency presides over all other presidencies in the Church.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 24 2005, 02:30 PM

There is a difference between speaking in an official capacity and speaking the word of God.

For instance, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, President Hinckley has a position entitling him to speak to us [all other members of the Church] as the leader of the Church, as we [all other members of the Church] are obligated to follow President Hinckley, because he is the President of the Church.  If we don’t do that, we might as well cancel or withdraw our membership from the Church and join some other church with a leader we are willing to support.

But that’s just from the official perspective, looking at the Prophet as merely the President of the Church.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also sustain President Hinckley as the Prophet of the Church, meaning that we [the members] sustain President Hinckley as the person the Lord speaks with when He desires to reveal a matter concerning the entire Church.

Or in other words, when we [the members of the Church] say we should follow the Prophet, we are saying that we should follow the person our Lord has placed in the leadership position of His Church, which is more than saying that we should merely follow a man who is the President of the Church.

Or in other words, we are saying follow the Prophet, not follow the President… although we should also follow the man because he is the President of our organization.

And btw, to those who don't know, I testify that God presides over the First Presidency of the Church, and that the First Presidency presides over all other presidencies in the Church.

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This is a distinction without a difference as far as Roman Catholics would be concerned. They believe that the Pope speaks with God in the same way that you believe God speaks to your Prophet.

[seamusz]

Yet another post that has been hijacked by bickering and negativity.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 24 2005, 03:56 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 24 2005, 02:30 PM

There is a difference between speaking in an official capacity and speaking the word of God.

For instance, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, President Hinckley has a position entitling him to speak to us [all other members of the Church] as the leader of the Church, as we [all other members of the Church] are obligated to follow President Hinckley, because he is the President of the Church.  If we don’t do that, we might as well cancel or withdraw our membership from the Church and join some other church with a leader we are willing to support.

But that’s just from the official perspective, looking at the Prophet as merely the President of the Church.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also sustain President Hinckley as the Prophet of the Church, meaning that we [the members] sustain President Hinckley as the person the Lord speaks with when He desires to reveal a matter concerning the entire Church.

Or in other words, when we [the members of the Church] say we should follow the Prophet, we are saying that we should follow the person our Lord has placed in the leadership position of His Church, which is more than saying that we should merely follow a man who is the President of the Church.

Or in other words, we are saying follow the Prophet, not follow the President… although we should also follow the man because he is the President of our organization.

And btw, to those who don't know, I testify that God presides over the First Presidency of the Church, and that the First Presidency presides over all other presidencies in the Church.

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This is a distinction without a difference as far as Roman Catholics would be concerned. They believe that the Pope speaks with God in the same way that you believe God speaks to your Prophet.

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Based on the knowledge I have gained by talking with members of the Roman Catholic church, Roman Catholics believe God speaks only to the Pope and that they [the other members of the Roman Catholic church] can only come to know that through study and reasoning of the information they are given in the Roman Catholic church.

Or in other words, they believe they can only know that through personal study of information given by members of church leadership.

Or in other words, they believe God speaks only to the Pope, and not to them individually, except through what has already been written in the Bible and what the Popes have had to say about the will of God.

Or in other words, they do not believe God speaks to anybody through personal revelation, except for the Pope.

Or in other words, they don't believe they can receive a personal testimony from God, aside from choosing whether or not to believe what they have been told by other members of their church.

Whereas we believe that every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is or at least should be a prophet.