Hebrew names in the BoM

[RanMan]

thekabalist - I have been looking over your threads. Very interesting stuff. I am really enjoying them. Haven't posted to them because I have just been taking in what you have had to offer here. Thanks.

:)

[rameumptom]

I was quickly scanning through this and I don't see that your question was answered. Forgive me if it was and I missed it.

The Gadianton robbers in the Book of Mormon were a wicked band originally led by a man named Kishkumen, united to murder, rob, and gain power. They wanted a certain man by the name of Paanchi to be the new Nephite chief judge. When the people selected his brother Pahoran to rule, Paanchi rebelled and was arrested, tried and condemned to death. His angry supporters sent Kishkumen to murder Pahoran. Afterwards, Kishkumen and those who sent him entered into a covenent never to reveal who murdered the chief judge.

So which brings me to another question, and again forgive me if this has been asked and answered already.

Two names here for interpretation. I realize I've already given you a background of these two men but would still be interested in your interpretation.

Paanchi

Pahoran

Gadianton was actually the leader of the secret group, with Kishkumen its chief assassin. Anciently, Hebrews used two goats in their annual rite of atonement. One was sacrificed for the people. The other, the high priest would lay his hands on its head to transfer the sins of the people upon the goat, then it would be led away into the wilderness. Both goats can represent Jesus Christ.

At the same time, the second goat can also represent Satan, or also the Wicked Priest (of Dead Sea Scroll origin, who competes against the Teacher of Righteousness). So in the second instance, Gadianton becomes the Wicked Priest among the Nephites, upon whom the Nephites blame their destruction. Gadianton leads his people go into the wilderness when Kishkumen is killed, where they build up their kingdom of evil.

Paanchi and Pahoran were noted as Egyptian names by William F. Albright, when he mentioned how he was impressed that authentic Egyptian names were in the BoM (mentioned in John Tvedtnes' FAIR article here).

Wikipedia tells us this:

Paanchi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paanchi

Paanchi (meaning "the Living One"), also spelled as Piankhi, Piankhy, and Piyi, (r. 747 BC - 716 BC ) was an ancient ruler of the kingdom of Nubia. In the 21st year of his reign (c. 727 BC),he conquered Egypt. He adopted the throne name Menkheperre ( meaning "[he who] abides the manifestation of the sun god")<sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference">[1]</sup>. Following this conquest, his people the Kushites (Nubians) built pyramids (in fact, more in number than were ever built in Egypt), but smaller and with a sharper inclination than the 52 degrees used by the Egyptians<sup class="noprint Template-Fact" title="This claim needs references to reliable sources from March 2008" style="white-space: nowrap;">[citation needed]</sup>. Paanchi in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

LDS scholars note that the name Paanchi appears in the Book of Mormon. Additionally, they note that pyramids appeared in Central America, built on the Nubian rather than the Egyptian model<sup class="noprint Template-Fact" title="This claim needs references to reliable sources from March 2008" style="white-space: nowrap;"></sup>, after Paanchi came to power in Egypt and sponsored sea-going expeditions.

Pahura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pahura

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

<!-- start content --> Pahura, and also spelled Pihur/Pihuru, Pihura, and Pihuru/Pihure was a commissioner of the 1350 BC Amarna letters correspondence. Pahura's name means in Egyptian, ' the Syrian ' , and he was commissioner to the Egyptian pharaoh.

Pahura is referenced in 9-letters of the Amarna letters corpus. Two damaged partial letters are only topically identified by Pahura's name, with no other references: letters EA 207 and 208,

I believe the "n" at the end of Pahoran is an add-on, much like "iah" in Hebrew or "ihah" in the BoM.

[pam]

Gadianton was actually the leader of the secret group, with Kishkumen its chief assassin. Anciently, Hebrews used two goats in their annual rite of atonement. One was sacrificed for the people. The other, the high priest would lay his hands on its head to transfer the sins of the people upon the goat, then it would be led away into the wilderness. Both goats can represent Jesus Christ.

You are correct. I actually meant to put originally led by Gadianton and just now realized I put Kishkumen when you pointed it out. Thanks for correcting me.

[rameumptom]

No problem, Pam.

I suggest for Jenda and those responding to her that all such discussion that is unrelated to the OP be done in PM or elsewhere. Let's not drag down this thread with side snarks from either side.

[pam]

RanMan I sent you a pm. Just letting you know.

[Jenda]

No problem, Pam.

I suggest for Jenda and those responding to her that all such discussion that is unrelated to the OP be done in PM or elsewhere. Let's not drag down this thread with side snarks from either side.

I apologize for getting drawn into a fight and responding in kind. I came to discuss valid issues surrounding this topic and am sorry that a few questions has led to such nasty postings. If thekabalist wishes not to discuss the issues surrounding the topic, that is fine.

Edited December 13, 2009 by pam
Since we are deleting personal attacks..editing out.

[thekabalist]

I apologize for getting drawn into a fight and responding in kind. I came to discuss valid issues surrounding this topic and am sorry that a few questions has led to such nasty postings. If thekabalist wishes not to discuss the issues surrounding the topic, that is fine.

I do want to discuss issues surrounding the topic but that's not what you have presented. You simply insist without anything other than your opinion that you think the whole process of transliteration is weird. Fine you've made your point.

Edited December 13, 2009 by john doe
removed deleted quote

[Jenda]

I do want to discuss issues surrounding the topic but that's not what you have presented. You simply insist without anything other than your opinion that you think the whole process of transliteration is weird. Fine you've made your point. Now why don't you go troll somewhere else? And I was not welcome at the other forum. I received a "nice" PM making clear I was not welcome. Some of the folks here read the letter as I sent it to them over PM and can testify that I was silenced. Ran is one of them and this is why he has referred to it.

You misunderstood the PM then. There were lots of forums you could post in, and a few you couldn't. The LDS forum is in the Christian Only section, and since you are not a Christian, you could not post there. But there were lots of other forums that you could post in.

And I'd like to add, in parting, that what you are posting is your opinion, and your opinions are no more valid than mine. You have said it is speculation (opinion), and my questions were directed to how you arrived at your speculations. Nothing more. And asking questions is how one gets answers.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Jenda

[thekabalist]

About this topic: The process is simple and transparent: I look at the English name and try to identify possible Hebrew word (or words) that would read similarly to the names in question. It is demonstrated and explained name per name.

If you have a different opinion about the etymology please do feel free to present it like others have such as Egyptian or any other language. Or if you think any etymological solution is incorrect and want to show us why then by all means do so. But if you just dislike the whole process then please just leave us alone.

b'shalom!

Edited December 12, 2009 by Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Alright. Please let's stop talking about the other forum. I am going trough and editing all that out of the messages. It's really distracting. Please take all that to PM. I can understand Jenda replying to remarks made to her to try to clear things up, but for now Jenda is still welcome to post, and I don't want any more accusations back and forth. The rules for this forum are simple. -> http://www.lds.net/forums/jewish-perspective-book-mormon/28388-rules-forum.html

Just follow those.

I'm sorry for having to edit your posts, and this includes others besides Jenda.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited December 12, 2009 by Vanhin

[Zechariah]

After Maya provided a list of some of the Book of Mormon names, it occurred to me that there might be a list of all of them on the internet somewhere so I went searching, and I finally found one. I was hoping to find it with the pronunciation too, but didn't, though I guess that's not necessary for the purposes here anyway, so here they are:

Abinadi, Abinadom, Abish, Ablom, Agosh, Ahah, Ahaz, Aiath, Akish, Amaleki, Amalikiah, Amaron, Amgid, Aminadab, Aminadi, Amlici, Ammaron, Ammon, Ammonihah, Ammoron, Amna, Amnigaddah, Amnah, Amnihu, Amnor, Amoron, Amulek, Amulon, Anahoth, Antiomno, Antion, Antionah, Antionum, Antiparah, Antipus, Antum, Arpad, Carchemish, Cezoram, Chemish, Cohor, Com, Comnor, Corianton, Coriantor, Coriantum, Coriantumr, Corihor, Corom, Cumeni, Cumenihah, Cumen, Cumorah, Curelom, Enos, Ephah, Esrom, Ethem, Ether, Ezias, Ezrom, Gad, Gadiandi, Gadianton, Gadiomnah, Gallim, Gazelem, Geba, Gebim, Gibeah, Gid, Giddonah, Giddianhi, Gidgiddonah, Gidgiddoni, Gilead, Gilgah, Gilgal, Gimgimno, Gomorah, Hagoth, Hamath, Hearthom, Helam, Helaman, Helem, Helorum, Hem, Hermounts, Heshlon, Heth, Himni, Horeb, Irreantum, Jacobugath, Jacom, Jarom, Hashon, Jeberechiah, Jeneum, Jothan, Kib, Kim, Kimnor, Kish, Kishkumen, Korihor, Kumen, Kumenonhi, Laban, Lachoneus, Laish, Lamah, Laman, Lamoni, Lehi, Lehonti, Liahona, Lib, Limhah, Limher, Limhi, Limnah, Luram, Madmenah, Mahah, Mahonri, Mani, Mathoni, Mathonihah, Melek, Michmash, Middoni, Midian, Migron, Minon, Mocum, Moriancumer, Morianton, Moriantum, Mormon, Moron, Moroni, Moronihah, Mosiah, Mulek, Muloki, Nahom, Neas, Nehor, Nephi, Nephihah, Neum, Nimrah, Ogath, Omer, Omner, Omni, Onidah, Onihah, Onti, Opher, Oreb, Orihah, Paanchi, Pachus, Pacumeni, Pagag, Pahoran, Pathros, Pekah, Rabbanah, Rahab, Ramah, Ramath, Rameumptom, Remaliah, Rezin, Riplah, Riplakish, Ripliancum, Sariah, Seantum, Sebus, Seezoram, Senine, Senum, Seraphim, Shared, Shazer, Shearjashub, Shelem, Shem, Shemlon, Shemnon, Sherem, Sherrizah, Aheum, Shez, Shiblom, Shiblon, Shiblum, Shiloah, Shilom, Shim, Shimnilon, Shinar, Shiz, Shule, Shum, Shurr, Sidom, Sidon, Sinim, Siron, Teancum, Teomner, Tubaloth, Uriah, Uzziah, Zerahemla, Zebulon, Zeezrom, Zemnarihah, Zenephi, Zeniff, Zenoch, Zenos, Zerahemnah, Zeram, Zerin, Ziff, Zoram.

OOPS - I guess that's not all of them after all.

Oh, I see. Those names also found in the Bible are not included I guess.

Got it now.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Zechariah

[pam]

Well that should keep thekabalist busy for awhile.

[thekabalist]

There are some biblical names in the list you provided, such as Ahaz and Akish. Here are a few translations:

* = (remember that in Hebrew the letter ב can be b/v and is usually anglicized as "b"

Example: Abraham = Avraham in Hebrew)

Abinadom*

אבינו - Avinu (our father)

אדום - Adom (red)

Avinu-adom = our father is red-haired

Abish*

אב - Av (father)

איש - Ish (man)

Av-ish = father of man

Ablom**

אב - Av (father)

עלום - Elum (concealed - notice that the letter ו can have the sounds of "o" or "u")

Av-Elum = the concealed father

Agosh

חג - Hag (feast/festival)

אש - esh (fire/light)

Ag-esh = feast/festival of fire/light

Ahah - אחא - this is the Aramaic word for "brother"

Aiath - חיט - Haiyat (tailor)

We could assemble a "Dictionary of BoM Semitic Names" :-)

Edited December 14, 2009 by thekabalist
Correction

[Vanhin]

Ahah - אחא - this is the Aramaic word for "brother"

The Finnish word for brother is "Veli", and it is a pretty common first name for males. I just thought it was interesting that brother is used as a name. So, if Ahah had gone to Church, instead of doing all manner of iniquity, he might have been literally called "Brother Sethson".

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Okay, well I'm clearly not a comedian...

[rameumptom]

The kabalist wrote:

Kishkumen:

קיש – kish - ring, signet (this is Aramaic actually), or a symbol of royalty

כאמן – k'aman - that is like a master

An interesting note on this transliteration would come from the Book of Moses, which extends the Creation story and that of Adam and Eve. Cain rejects God and follows Satan, loving Satan more than God. He sacrifices to God because Satan tells him to do so. When he fully rejects God, Satan teaches him the dark secrets of getting gain in secret combinations - which is what the Gadianton robbers were all about. Upon killing his brother Abel, Cain states he is "truly free" and gives himself the name, "Master Mahan" (Possibly Master of the World). It sounds like Kishkumen is the Hebraic form of Master Mahan (Master and a signet ring, suggesting royalty), and that he and Gadianton were attempting to follow Cain, even with titles.

[thekabalist]

The kabalist wrote:

An interesting note on this transliteration would come from the Book of Moses, which extends the Creation story and that of Adam and Eve. Cain rejects God and follows Satan, loving Satan more than God. He sacrifices to God because Satan tells him to do so. When he fully rejects God, Satan teaches him the dark secrets of getting gain in secret combinations - which is what the Gadianton robbers were all about. Upon killing his brother Abel, Cain states he is "truly free" and gives himself the name, "Master Mahan" (Possibly Master of the World). It sounds like Kishkumen is the Hebraic form of Master Mahan (Master and a signet ring, suggesting royalty), and that he and Gadianton were attempting to follow Cain, even with titles.

You know the first thing that came to my mind when you said "Master Mahan"? It sounds like the term "Mastema" (משטמה). In DSS literature this is one of the names given to Satan. It means hatefulness.

Another interesting possibility for Mahan is: מחן (m'hen - literally "out of grace"). I would bet all my chips in this interpretation and I'd like to explain why.

Now consider the word "master". One of the forms that is used in Hebrew for master is בעל (baal). Now this is very relevant because "baal" is also used in connection with becoming deep into a spiritual state.

For example someone who was raised completely outside religion and then starts following it is called a בעל תשובה (baal teshuvah - master of return/repentance) whereas someone who is wicked beyond hope is called a בעל עבירה (baal aveirah - master of transgression).

So when Cain possibly calling himself a בעל מחן (baal m'hen) he not only is calling himself a master who has come out of the grace of G-d meaning he no longer needed it, but also this shows that he achieved the lowest possible spiritual state that would eventually mean that G-d would show no grace towards him.

Interesting isn't it?

b'shalom!

[pam]

For example someone who was raised completely outside religion and then starts following it is called a בעל תשובה (baal teshuvah - master of return/repentance) whereas someone who is wicked beyond hope is called a בעל עבירה (baal aveirah - master of transgression).

Curious as to why they would call a person master of return when they aren't actually returning to a faith if raised outside any religion.

[Vanhin]

Curious as to why they would call a person master of return when they aren't actually returning to a faith if raised outside any religion.

I think it has to do with the word for repentance in Hebrew that means also "return". For some reason I remember thekabalist saying something like that in one of the commentaries let me check on that.

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Yep,

Repent: The word in Hebrew for this is the word שוב (shuv) which quite literally means to return. Nephi's warnings were that the people had strayed from the Torah-Law of G-d. Repenting in Judaism is more than a feeling. It is seeking the original way. Two schools of thought within Judaism defined such repentance: Some say repentance is to seek the state of the Sinai. Others define it as seeking the state of our primary existence as it was in the Garden of Eden.

Vanhin

[pam]

Thanks. I had not remembered that. Makes sense now.

[Vanhin]

You know the first thing that came to my mind when you said "Master Mahan"? It sounds like the term "Mastema" (משטמה). In DSS literature this is one of the names given to Satan. It means hatefulness.

Another interesting possibility for Mahan is: מחן (m'hen - literally "out of grace"). I would bet all my chips in this interpretation and I'd like to explain why.

Now consider the word "master". One of the forms that is used in Hebrew for master is בעל (baal). Now this is very relevant because "baal" is also used in connection with becoming deep into a spiritual state.

For example someone who was raised completely outside religion and then starts following it is called a בעל תשובה (baal teshuvah - master of return/repentance) whereas someone who is wicked beyond hope is called a בעל עבירה (baal aveirah - master of transgression).

So when Cain possibly calling himself a בעל מחן (baal m'hen) he not only is calling himself a master who has come out of the grace of G-d meaning he no longer needed it, but also this shows that he achieved the lowest possible spiritual state that would eventually mean that G-d would show no grace towards him.

Interesting isn't it?

b'shalom!

In Mormonism Cain will rule over Satan after the final resurrection, since Satan will never have a body, having lost that opportunity because of his rebellion in the pre-mortal world.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “all beings who have bodies have power over those who have not” ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 181). Elder Bruce R. McConkie said: “As Adam represented the Lord on earth, so Cain acted for and on behalf of Lucifer. Indeed, this first murderer of all murderers is himself Perdition—he was so designated in preexistence—and he will rule over Satan himself when the devil and his angels are cast out everlastingly” ( A New Witness For the Articles of Faith, 658). (source)

Regards,

Vanhin

[pam]

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “all beings who have bodies have power over those who have not” ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 181). Elder Bruce R. McConkie said: “As Adam represented the Lord on earth, so Cain acted for and on behalf of Lucifer. Indeed, this first murderer of all murderers is himself Perdition—he was so designated in preexistence—and he will rule over Satan himself when the devil and his angels are cast out everlastingly” ( A New Witness For the Articles of Faith, 658). (source)

I just learned something..or else another thing I don't remember learning or just have never given it much thought. But that's interesting.

[volgadon]

Hi there!

Nauvoo sounds a lot like the Hebrew word "nevua" which is the word for "prophecy". In fact, depending on the Hebrew dialect it'd sound nearly identical to that.

You would write it like this: נבואה

Perhaps this is what he meant? The Hebrew for beautiful would be "yafah" (יפה)

Nauvoo is the plural of naeh, and is taken from Isaiah 52:7. He should have called the city naavah.

[volgadon]

The likeliest possibility is that mahan stems from the same root as moach- brain. This fits in especially well with his reason for boasting, that he has a cunning plan to get what he wants when he wants. In other words, melech hakombinot. =)

Baal did not come to mean master until a little later, in the Second Temple period, IIRC.

You know the first thing that came to my mind when you said "Master Mahan"? It sounds like the term "Mastema" (משטמה). In DSS literature this is one of the names given to Satan. It means hatefulness.

Another interesting possibility for Mahan is: מחן (m'hen - literally "out of grace"). I would bet all my chips in this interpretation and I'd like to explain why.

Now consider the word "master". One of the forms that is used in Hebrew for master is בעל (baal). Now this is very relevant because "baal" is also used in connection with becoming deep into a spiritual state.

For example someone who was raised completely outside religion and then starts following it is called a בעל תשובה (baal teshuvah - master of return/repentance) whereas someone who is wicked beyond hope is called a בעל עבירה (baal aveirah - master of transgression).

So when Cain possibly calling himself a בעל מחן (baal m'hen) he not only is calling himself a master who has come out of the grace of G-d meaning he no longer needed it, but also this shows that he achieved the lowest possible spiritual state that would eventually mean that G-d would show no grace towards him.

Interesting isn't it?

b'shalom!