Maya Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 There are so many good non LDS people all over the world (like my parents)... there must be a way for those, who really repend and are worthy for higher status to climb up ... eternal development for those who do not deny God is possible. But there is SO much to learn... for me it will take 2 eternities to reach to a higher place I am sure.... Anyway I think we all know where we belong when the time comes. We choose our eternity ourself. But is it possible to change? I feel there are things that no matter HOW MUCH I try to develope in them nothing happens And a question is ... DO I REALLY want to change? Like stop eating chocholate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 There are so many good non LDS people all over the world (like my parents)... there must be a way for those, who really repend and are worthy for higher status to climb up ... eternal development for those who do not deny God is possible. But there is SO much to learn... for me it will take 2 eternities to reach to a higher place I am sure.... Anyway I think we all know where we belong when the time comes. We choose our eternity ourself. But is it possible to change? I feel there are things that no matter HOW MUCH I try to develope in them nothing happens And a question is ... DO I REALLY want to change? Like stop eating chocholate...I think most LDS, (maybe I am wrong), believe that we developed for quite some time before this world began, that is how some became valiant and others not. This final step in our development was necessary because we couldn't really 'learn' anything more without having this mortal, physical existence. This life is more like the 'final exam' than it is kindergarten. I think if there is something that can be learned to this point (not talking about eternal progression) than it was probably already learned before we came here and the veil erases it from our memory. Any amount of learning obtained here will be to one's advantage but not necessary so long as the gospel essentials are understood and followed. I believe that the things learned here are taken as 'experience' and not so much that memorizing all the past presidents of the United States, for example, would be helpful in the next life (or that kind of thing). I think there are many things that could be learned in the next life if it pertains to our stewardship but if it doesn't it would be like going back to study calculus again (I have never used calculus in my adult life and doubt I will have need for it in this lifetime). I think those that end up in the Terrestial and Telestial kingdoms will likely not feel like they need to learn anything more.This life is the time for repentance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 If we're able to repent in the afterlife it flies in the face of everything I've ever been taught and cheapens our time of probation here on planet Earth. If you died, went to the Telestial Kingdom for being a murderer and a rapist etc, then could still progress up to the top level of the Celestial Kingdom, what is the point of having a JUDGEMENT after this life? I know it would be nice to think that we will all make it one day, but the third of HF's children who got cast out will never make it, and neither will a lot of others. When HF talks about the topic, he doesn't apologize for it. He doesn't say... "I'm sorry, but...". As far as traffic between kingdoms go, Heavenly Father doesn't visit the Terrestrial and Telestial worlds, and Jesus doesn't visit the Telestial world. The HG does visit the Telestial world. So I guess the answer to is there traffic between the kingdoms is yes there is. Any guesses why HF would not visit his children in lower kingdoms, but Jesus will? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted November 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 If we're able to repent in the afterlife it flies in the face of everything I've ever been taught and cheapens our time of probation here on planet Earth. If you died, went to the Telestial Kingdom for being a murderer and a rapist etc, then could still progress up to the top level of the Celestial Kingdom, what is the point of having a JUDGEMENT after this life? Eternity is such a long time for reflection in the penalty box. If a change of heart did occur would it be met with a denial of forgiveness? Maybe the judges will all remain in Israel and mercy will prevail on the big guy's level. ------Afterthought, what if we called it a double-secret probation with a wink and a nod?:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 I have wondered if there are armed angels or possibly unarmed border patrol angels stationed at the border crossings between Kingdoms in the hereafter.Do you think they would give less required shifts to those angels who served on guard duty in the Spirit Prison? Wonder how many PrisonChaplains they have on duty at any one time?Any speculations?:) I think so but I am disturbed in noting those who left their posts when Adam and Eve were left on their own in the garden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 There are two types of possibility that we need to consider regarding the Telestial and Terrestrial.First, if there is no progression between kingdoms, then there can be eternal progression within the kingdom. The difference is that they would never be able to become gods, but could develop in science, art, math, etc. Given that those in higher kingdoms can descend to minister to those in lower kingdoms, I can't help but think that this is to help them progress somehow.Personally, I'm convinced that there IS progression between kingdoms. But I don't teach it, as it is not doctrine. Given that higher beings descend to minister, and that we have caveats when it comes to defining terms such as "Eternal" or "Endless" (see D&C 19), there is the possibility that this can occur. Given that we do not know for certainty, we should not teach it. I'd hate to teach it, then have someone think, "Oh, well I can live a Telestial life here, and eventually still make it to the Celestial Kingdom". I do not wish to be responsible for someone not taking the high road to exaltation, and then lose out entirely if it were wrong.Now, if the second were true, all could eventually become exalted (or at least enter the Celestial glory). But they would be eons behind those who achieved it now. It would be akin to Celestial beings progressing quickly on a rocket ship, while telestial beings were pedaling bicycles. They both move forward, but at extremely different paces, and while the bicyclist could eventually make it to where the other initially became celestial, by that time, the celestial person would be far ahead in glory and progression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tfrey1225 Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 We won't be mortal, so it won't be as it is here. We will each be placed where we belong, and it will be well. I do believe that those in higher kingdoms will be able to go to the other ones. But there is joy in each. And the kingdoms exist in another formation than there being borders. So we will be where we know and feel we belong. Spirit Prison isn't one of razor wire, like mortal prisons. It may be cliche to say this... but what it is, is beyond our mortal minds' comprehension.I have a question about the Kingdoms. What if you go to one Kingdom but your family goes to another, wouldn't that be the cause for much anguish amongst all parties? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 One thing to remember when we're talking about kingdoms:Alma made it clear that this life is the time of our probation. While we may receive ordinances of salvation and exaltation in the next life, they will be in effect only if we would have received them had they been allowed to "tarry" in this life (see D&C 137:7). Someone who prefers sin to holiness in this life will still prefer sin to holiness in the next life, and will therefore prefer a lesser kingdom and be unable to abide the glory of a higher kingdom.We are who we choose to be, because our actions are dictated by who we are. It's a cycle that only the Atonement and the grace of God can break us out of, and only if we follow His set terms (which includes doing all we can in this life to repent and improve ourselves). I know of no passages in the scriptures that suggests that we'll be able to progress from lower kingdoms to higher ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxel Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 I have a question about the Kingdoms. What if you go to one Kingdom but your family goes to another, wouldn't that be the cause for much anguish amongst all parties?I imagine it would. Undoubtedly there will be many families like that- however, the glory of God is such that all anguish will be swallowed up in the joy of Christ for the righteous. The unrighteous will have to endure more of the anguish of being seperated from their earthly family as part of the "bitter dregs" of eternal damnation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 There are many revelations receive that is not give to the church since its foundation. If I could have a few minutes in the church archives, I wonder if there is plausible evidence of a revelation with greater instruction that progression is a truism not given at this time for a wiser purpose. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 There are two types of possibility that we need to consider regarding the Telestial and Terrestrial.First, if there is no progression between kingdoms, then there can be eternal progression within the kingdom. The difference is that they would never be able to become gods, but could develop in science, art, math, etc. Given that those in higher kingdoms can descend to minister to those in lower kingdoms, I can't help but think that this is to help them progress somehow.Personally, I'm convinced that there IS progression between kingdoms. But I don't teach it, as it is not doctrine. Given that higher beings descend to minister, and that we have caveats when it comes to defining terms such as "Eternal" or "Endless" (see D&C 19), there is the possibility that this can occur. Given that we do not know for certainty, we should not teach it. I'd hate to teach it, then have someone think, "Oh, well I can live a Telestial life here, and eventually still make it to the Celestial Kingdom". I do not wish to be responsible for someone not taking the high road to exaltation, and then lose out entirely if it were wrong.Now, if the second were true, all could eventually become exalted (or at least enter the Celestial glory). But they would be eons behind those who achieved it now. It would be akin to Celestial beings progressing quickly on a rocket ship, while telestial beings were pedaling bicycles. They both move forward, but at extremely different paces, and while the bicyclist could eventually make it to where the other initially became celestial, by that time, the celestial person would be far ahead in glory and progression.I think your metaphor would be more exact comparing a bicycle and a space shuttle, one could never leave the gravity pull of this earth. The final judgment is based on desires of the heart and what was done here to show those desires. We matured as spirits before coming here, our progression was extensive before this life, at least enough to call some valiant. Now is the time to have a change of heart if one is to be had. After this life, I don't think a change of heart is possible and the bicycle will always be a bicycle but could never become a space shuttle. If there is any progression in the lower kingdoms, it is probably limited to those kingdoms. I don't believe the kingdom assignment is based on knowledge alone, if that were the case then I could see how someone might get there eventually like the slow moving bicycle, relatively. But, it is more than knowledge, it is the character of the heart, ones desires and passions, and even given eternity I don't think that would change or could change after this life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormwitch Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 The good thing Maya is that our collective speculations do not have to be the final word. My guess is that many wonderful suprises await us on the other side of the veil.Amen!I believe that we really choose the kingdom ourselves, and that we could not abide in any other kingdom for long if at all. Being an inhabitant of the terrestial kingdom would enable us to be in the presence of Jesus, but we would not be able to stand the presence of Heavenly Father. Going to a lower kingdom would be possible for us, but we would miss the light and the closeness to God, we enjoy in the celestial kingdom, and we would yearn to return there. BUT: I have no idea what eternity really is and whether there is a way to grow during eternity. If there is, it will be very hard, much harder, than growing here on earth. But as far as I know, nothing has been revealed about any option like this. God might have designed it, but he might as well have not.Better to take no risks and do what is necessary here on earth to obtain the celestial kingdom and not to hope for a back entrance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Stormwitch made me think of that basicly everybody is going to get what they want. FEX lutherans believe God is a spirit, no body ect.... so when they get to the Kingdom of theirs they will meet Jesus as they believee they will today. God is going to be just a voice to them... posibly through somekind of loudspeaker system. When we get to our Kingdom we will see Jesus and God just as we have expected to see. Those who have not believed in Jesus nor God will continue living without them. What I wonder is that these groups probably will be separated, but what happens with those who know/knew but denied.... To see God at judgement may be a hard place for those who turned down LDS consept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted November 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Stormwitch made me think of that basicly everybody is going to get what they want. Family home evenings all the way, Maya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanMan Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Stormwitch made me think of that basicly everybody is going to get what they want. FEX lutherans believe God is a spirit, no body ect.... so when they get to the Kingdom of theirs they will meet Jesus as they believee they will today. God is going to be just a voice to them... posibly through somekind of loudspeaker system.When we get to our Kingdom we will see Jesus and God just as we have expected to see. Those who have not believed in Jesus nor God will continue living without them. What I wonder is that these groups probably will be separated, but what happens with those who know/knew but denied.... To see God at judgement may be a hard place for those who turned down LDS consept.That is interesting view. Those who believe God is just a voice, will receive Him only as a voice. Very interesting was to look at it. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 IMHO... some day we will laugh at some of our thoughts... there is a Finnish saying: "Yrittänyttä ei laiteta" ... eh in English somethign like this: "They dont rebuke the one who tries!" And "Totuus on tarua ihmeellisempi!" ; "the truth is more weird/wonderous than stories" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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