Authority

[Snow]

prisonchaplain,

As you may be able to tell, my argument with John is not so much that he has a different view on authority than I have. Rather, he picks a poor basis to support his view. I also suspect that John is an evangelical anti-Mormon though he didn’t have the gumption to keep posting so I can find out.... and it’s not that I have anything against evangelicals. It just that almost all anti-Mormons are evangelicals (and some ex-Mormons for good measure).

In non-LDS Christianity, there are various theories on ecclesiastical authority. The Roman Catholic position is that authority is specifically conveyed from one who has it to someone who receives it, to other denominations that think authority arises out of a reading or an understanding of and acceptance of the Bible, while others think authority is invested in that denomination proper, or the body of believers. There are likely hundreds of variations on those broad themes.

Any one who has read the New Testament a few times can probably find a dozen or so verses both for and against their own view of salvation (faith and works or faith only). Maybe it is the same with the topic of authority - I don’t really know, but I prefer to make the case without finding the verses that tend to support my position while ignoring all scripture to the contrary.

We in the LDS Church believe that God is a God or order. On earth that order manifests itself through institutions (or an institution) that God has specifically set up and operates via his duly authorized representatives and that those peoples and institutions that are not specifically authorized may be doing good - but in a limited and ultimately insufficient manner - insufficient to realize ALL the goals and designs of God.

This I believe as a matter of faith - just as all those who disagree so believe also as a matter of faith. To be sure, my view seems to me to be more logical than the opposite view but still it is based on dogmatic faith.

I think that the logic of a hierarchical institution led by God’s chosen prophet is self-evident so I won’t dwell on it. I also think that the alternate view of authority - flowing from the body of believers, or from the scriptures, leads to... well, exactly what it has led to... thousands and thousands of denominations and sects, conflict, disagreement, unstable doctrine, warfare and bloodshed, charlatans, politics and power, and confusion. I accept that where I see disarray, others may see a remarkable degree of unity - like a half full/half empty glass, but I think that on the whole, across the whole spectrum, from the beginning to now, disunity and confusion are more salient than the unity - and that’s not how I see God as operating.

[prisonchaplain]

I think that the logic of a hierarchical institution led by God’s chosen prophet is self-evident so I won’t dwell on it.

Ironically, this whole discussion, at least in the Protestant world, would be labeled "theology of church government." What is self-evident to you has kept full-time theologians busy for many lifetimes.

I also think that the alternate view of authority - flowing from the body of believers, or from the scriptures, leads to... well, exactly what it has led to... thousands and thousands of denominations and sects

It is only natural that as the church grew, different congregations would develop differently. This is true, even within denominations. Look at the seven churches in Revelation 2-3 for examples!

The existence of multiple groups under the umbrella of Christianity is not troubling for most Protestants. Denominations are simply groups of churches that cooperate to advance the gospel more effectively. Cooperation between denominations has been increasing dramatically in the last few decades. In many ways, worship styles are even becoming more and more alike, because of communications technology.

, conflict, disagreement

If you have three people on earth, and both genders, this is inevitable.

, unstable doctrine

Unavoidable. See Revelations 2-3--especially the repeated references to the Nicolaitans. The Apostle Paul also dealt with a kind of precursor to the Gnostic heresy.

, warfare and bloodshed, charlatans, politics and power, and confusion.

See Jesus' parable on the wheat and tares. All of these difficulties were predicted. Man-made institutions cannot squelch these problems.

I accept that where I see disarray, others may see a remarkable degree of unity - like a half full/half empty glass, but I think that on the whole, across the whole spectrum, from the beginning to now, disunity and confusion are more salient than the unity - and that’s not how I see God as operating.

If you come to this discussion from a church tradition that has hierarchical government and theological dissemination, it would be natural for you to see chaos. On the other hand, Protestants who have been raised in a "priesthood of all believers" type setting, where the spiritual leader (aka pastor) is seen as God's servant, to train and equip the people, have a much greater tolerance for diversity. Our maxim: In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, in all things charity.

The whole doctrine of apostolic succession (Catholic), or apostolic authority (LDS) strikes me as plausible, but not essential. Who said somebody had to pass the authority along?

My own denomination takes this notion a step further. We believe that when a believer is baptized in the Holy Spirit s/he receives power (authority). Since we argue that the gift is available for all believers, the authority the apostles had is also for all believers. Authority, might be understood as permission, commission or right. But, it can also mean power.

WARNING--OFF TOPIC COMMENT. I want to thank the LDS members here for making us guests feel welcome. I'm learning how lay-Mormons think about their faith. I never realized the parallels between Catholic and LDS teachings on authority--ironic since LDS do not really have professional full-time 'career' clergy.

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[BenRaines]

PrisonChaplain,

I was reading your latest post and went and read Rev 2 and 3. I am not a theologian but as I read it the churches mentioned were still all the churches as organized by Christ's apostles and were not different denominations. When Christ organized his church with Apostles, teacher, deacons, priests and others it was the same church in each place where it was organized. An apostasy was prophesied of often in the scriptures and we believe that is what happened.

Based on the belief that Christ established his church with his authority or Priesthood there are only two options. Either the Catholic Church has the authority as they claim from Peter or there was a break in that authority and it needed to be restored to perform the sacred ordinances as when Christ established his church.

[pushka]

I think this is the place where Jason might be handy in discussing the Orthodox Catholic church and its beliefs about the Bishops of X country and Y country, and about the Bishop of Italy (the Pope) having broken away from the others, and therefore the Roman Catholic church being created?

Sorry Jason...I've really simplified that, and left out tons, I know, but if you care to join this thread again and fill in the gaps, if you still believe the Orthodox Church is sort of right? Thanks :)

[BenRaines]

I have read of the various groups of Catholic church. Greek, Roman and all the other parts that split off. Also of the various popes that have had each other murdered etc. Was not going to go in to that in detail. Haun's Mill Massacre is a black spot on LDS church history but nothing like what has happened in the name of Christianity by many other religions in the name of righteousness.

In the case of Haun's Mill I believe someone was actually tried and executed for leading that massacre.

[dizzysmiles]

ok thanks snow your funy, I did click on his blog instead.. hmmm. Jason is a nice guy but Marueen if you read what he had to say its only obvious.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 11 2005, 12:08 AM

PrisonChaplain,

I was reading your latest post and went and read Rev 2 and 3.  I am not a theologian but as I read it the churches mentioned were still all the churches as organized by Christ's apostles and were not different denominations.  When Christ organized his church with Apostles, teacher, deacons, priests and others it was the same church in each place where it was organized.  An apostasy was prophesied of often in the scriptures and we believe that is what happened.

My point in referencing the churches in Rev. 2-3 was that these seven churches, all geographically close, and yes, all established by the apostles, had already developed differently.  Their issues were different, their communities were different, their spiritual successes and failures were different.

As for church organization, Jesus merely mentored the 12 disciples.  He gave special attention to Peter, James and John.  Ironically, Paul is the most prolific writer in the New Testament, even though he did not walk with Jesus during his three years of ministry.  Keep in mind also, that in Luke 10 Jesus sent out 72 to do gospel work. 

Ironically, during Jesus' ministry, the followers of the Way were considered a sect of Judaism.  They were eventually driven out of the synagogues, but that is how Jesus' followers began.  After Peter began ministering to Gentiles, the church began to organize.

I just don't see the hierarchy, the emphasis on office and authority, when I read the Scriptures.  I remember that in the first year of my graduate theological studies, the President of the school meet with small groups of us.  He recounted the story of Jesus washing his disciple's feet.  He then charged us to take the advanced degrees we would be earning, the ordinations we would be commissioned with, and use them to serve.  "Do you want to lead God's church?" he querried.  "Grab a towel!"  At that point he handed each of us a towel and told us to begin serving...don't even wait to graduate.  Find God's service, and plug in.

Based on the belief that Christ established his church with his authority or Priesthood there are only two options.  Either the Catholic Church has the authority as they claim from Peter or there was a break in that authority and it needed to be restored to perform the sacred ordinances as when Christ established his church.

I guess I'm questioning the question.  Jesus seems to have begun with the 12 disciples, concentrating on three of them.  He then commissioned the 72.  Ultimately, with the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit, with its power for witnessing, the Great Commission to lead sinners to God's forgiveness and faith in Jesus, to heal the sick, and to cast out demons, all Christian believers are duty-bound to be a part of the work.  We all have the authority, power, means and responsiblity.

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[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Nov 11 2005, 03:53 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-BenRaines@Nov 11 2005, 12:08 AM

PrisonChaplain,

I was reading your latest post and went and read Rev 2 and 3.  I am not a theologian but as I read it the churches mentioned were still all the churches as organized by Christ's apostles and were not different denominations.  When Christ organized his church with Apostles, teacher, deacons, priests and others it was the same church in each place where it was organized.  An apostasy was prophesied of often in the scriptures and we believe that is what happened.

My point in referencing the churches in Rev. 2-3 was that these seven churches, all geographically close, and yes, all established by the apostles, had already developed differently.  Their issues were different, their communities were different, their spiritual successes and failures were different.

As for church organization, Jesus merely mentored the 12 disciples.  He gave special attention to Peter, James and John.  Ironically, Paul is the most prolific writer in the New Testament, even though he did not walk with Jesus during his three years of ministry.  Keep in mind also, that in Luke 10 Jesus sent out 72 to do gospel work. 

Ironically, during Jesus' ministry, the followers of the Way were considered a sect of Judaism.  They were eventually driven out of the synagogues, but that is how Jesus' followers began.  After Peter began ministering to Gentiles, the church began to organize.

I just don't see the hierarchy, the emphasis on office and authority, when I read the Scriptures.  I remember that in the first year of my graduate theological studies, the President of the school meet with small groups of us.  He recounted the story of Jesus washing his disciple's feet.  He then charged us to take the advanced degrees we would be earning, the ordinations we would be commissioned with, and use them to serve.  "Do you want to lead God's church?" he querried.  "Grab a towel!"  At that point he handed each of us a towel and told us to begin serving...don't even wait to graduate.  Find God's service, and plug in.

Based on the belief that Christ established his church with his authority or Priesthood there are only two options.  Either the Catholic Church has the authority as they claim from Peter or there was a break in that authority and it needed to be restored to perform the sacred ordinances as when Christ established his church.

I guess I'm questioning the question.  Jesus seems to have begun with the 12 disciples, concentrating on three of them.  He then commissioned the 72.  Ultimately, with the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit, with its power for witnessing, the Great Commission to lead sinners to God's forgiveness and faith in Jesus, to heal the sick, and to cast out demons, all Christian believers are duty-bound to be a part of the work.  We all have the authority, power, means and responsiblity.

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I have heard from many who see it they way you see it. But then we add to the bible... in scriptures... and also have a living prophet... so we aren't left to only rely on what we can get from the Bible..

So... as long as you are doing the best you can with what you got... and we do the best we can with what we got.. no worries..

[Jason]

Originally posted by dizzysmiles@Nov 11 2005, 03:38 PM

ok thanks snow your funy, I did click on his blog instead.. hmmm.  Jason is a nice guy but Marueen if you read what he had to say its only obvious.

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What's obvious?

[Jason]

Originally posted by pushka@Nov 11 2005, 10:13 AM

I think this is the place where Jason might be handy in discussing the Orthodox Catholic church and its beliefs about the Bishops of X country and Y country, and about the Bishop of Italy (the Pope) having broken away from the others, and therefore the Roman Catholic church being created? 

Sorry Jason...I've really simplified that, and left out tons, I know, but if you care to join this thread again and fill in the gaps, if you still believe the Orthodox Church is sort of right?  Thanks :)

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I don't think anyone's really looking for that kind of detail Michelle.

And no, Im not a believer in Orthodoxy anymore. (Though it's the best type of Christianity I've ever seen.)

[Snow]

prisonchaplain,

Yes I realize that many, but not all, protestants do not find religious multiplicity especially troubling. Not being bothersome to the pluralists is not the same thing and having been set up by God according to His design.

I agree with you that where humans are involved, disagreement, dissension and even violence may be a natural outcome but to think that God designed his Church in a form that encouraged that is a different matter.

I think of what has have happened because of the fractured nature of Christianity - horrible warfare, murder, lying - one about the other, and it make no sense to me that God is the architect. It makes much more sense that God would have a Church with uniformity of doctrine, unity of purpose and cohesion of spirit - why wouldn’t He do it that way?

Hardly ever do you get Mormons (for the sake of argument) declaring war on, murdering, writing dishonest anti-Mormon rhetoric, etc., about other Mormons, BECAUSE those others are Mormon.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 11 2005, 07:49 PM

prisonchaplain,

Yes I realize that many, but not all, protestants do not find religious multiplicity especially troubling. Not being bothersome to the pluralists is not the same thing and having been set up by God according to His design.

There is no doubt but that God wants unity in his church.  However, what does that unity look like?  Need it be one particular man-made denomination?  Perhaps God is more pleased when Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Baptists, Native Americans, Koreans, African-Americans, rich, poor, educated, blue-collar believers gather in love for such groups as Promise Keepers, a Billy Graham Crusade, or to bring help and hope to hurricane victims.  If one pushes the demand for unity to the place of there being only one true church affiliation, the opposite argument would be that the institution becomes an idol.  Our Heavenly Father said we are to have no other gods before him.  Jesus said He's the way, truth and life--that no one gets to the Father, but through him.  Insisting that Christian unity requires a single institutional structure could be seen as creating a "gateway" between the Father and Christ.  We dare not ursurp God's position in order to enforce our own understanding of what he wants.

I agree with you that where humans are involved, disagreement, dissension and even violence may be a natural outcome but to think that God designed his Church in a form that encouraged that is a different matter.

No, God did not create a church organization that would encourage strife.  We're perfectly capable of dwelling in turmoil, without his designing it.  However, the solution to lovelessness is not man-made organization, and forced unity under a single flag.  Rather, Galations 5 informs us that the chaos you sight is the result of God's people operating under the "works of the flesh," rather than in the "fruit of the Spirit."  We need to allow the Holy Ghost more freedom to operate in our lives and churches, if we want love to abound.  Without that, you can have incredible unity but still be spiritually impotent.

I think of what has have happened because of the fractured nature of Christianity - horrible warfare, murder, lying - one about the other, and it make no sense to me that God is the architect. It makes much more sense that God would have a Church with uniformity of doctrine, unity of purpose and cohesion of spirit - why wouldn’t He do it that way?

I really do not see the amount of horrific results that you sight, from the reality that there is more than one Christian denomination.  In fact, there were some pretty horrific deeds done, even when the Catholic church was by and large the only institutional structure going.  When Christ returns, and his kingdom, which is "already, but not yet" is fully realized, then we will see the unity you crave.

By the way, a large part of why unity will be perfected on the day of judgment, is that those who do not call upon the Lord will be damned to the Lake of Fire.  Evil doers and evil deeds will not be a part of the eternal kingdom.  Sorrow, sickness, death will be gone.  Until that day, we strive to obey Christ's perfect law (Love God and each other), and will achieve sufficient unity to hear the Master say, "Well done, good and faithful servants...enter into my kingdom!"

Hardly ever do you get Mormons (for the sake of argument) declaring war on, murdering, writing dishonest anti-Mormon rhetoric, etc., about other Mormons, BECAUSE those others are Mormon.

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Really? I see some pretty passionate discussions here...even between LDS members. Additionally, I would be surprised if there wasn't a certain amount of rhetoric between the main sect (LDS), and the smaller groups (RLDS, etc.) With one man-made organization, and rigid doctrinal control, a good deal of strife can be avoided. However, I wonder if too much control doesn't quench some of the Spirit also?

I would suggest that 90% of Christians agree on 90% of what we teach. Most Christians see another denominational church and say, "God bless my brothers and sisters there." The Assemblies of God has Southern Baptist speakers at our ministers' meetings, and they have ours. Most of us can share the sacraments of holy communion with each other, and we generally recognize one another's baptisms. We work together, love each other, and look forward to spending eternity together. We see no need to convert one another. My sense is that God is pleased...that lock-step conformity and unity are not high on his list of plans for his church--what we call the "church universal."

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Luke 12:

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

[Snow]

prisonchaplain,

Yes I realize that many, but not all, protestants do not find religious multiplicity especially troubling. Not being bothersome to the pluralists is not the same thing and having been set up by God according to His design.

pc: There is no doubt but that God wants unity in his church.  However, what does that unity look like?  Need it be one particular man-made denomination?  Perhaps God is more pleased when Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Baptists, Native Americans, Koreans, African-Americans, rich, poor, educated, blue-collar believers gather in love for such groups as Promise Keepers, a Billy Graham Crusade, or to bring help and hope to hurricane victims.

Okay. Would he also be happy when one Church has hate literature about another church in it’s foyer or sells (on the Sabbath) anti-[fill in the name of a church] in it’s bookstore?

I live in California and our local interfaith councils are dominated by Mormons and Catholics but in other parts of the county where some evangelicals hold sway, Mormons (and plenty of other Christians) are excluded from their National Days of Prayer.

I attend other Church’s from time to time. Last year at a “Christian” service the pastor had a dandy sermon about “those liars, the Mormons.”

Of course there are dozens of web sites and “ministries” whose express and only purpose is to harm The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Mormons are not alone as targets of the religious bigots (not just individuals but whole churches and institutions), they are just the ones I am most familiar with. Catholic hating is still a pretty popular sport in the US

pc: I really do not see the amount of horrific results that you sight, from the reality that there is more than one Christian denomination. 

Not to say that Mormons are unique but we, as a people - historically- have been persecuted in some extreme ways - murder, assassination, a governmental extermination order, driven from our homes and cities and driven from the next and the next.

Looking back a bit more, the religious and protestant wars were as bloody and any war. The St. Bartholomew Massacre saw the most bloody and systematic extermination of non-combantats in European history up until WW II.

pc: I would suggest that 90% of Christians agree on 90% of what we teach. Most Christians see another denominational church and say, "God bless my brothers and sisters there." The Assemblies of God has Southern Baptist speakers at our ministers' meetings, and they have ours. Most of us can share the sacraments of holy communion with each other, and we generally recognize one another's baptisms. We work together, love each other, and look forward to spending eternity together.

That makes me think of something that happened somewhat recently. The President of the Fuller Seminary spoke in Salt Lake and apologized on behalf of Evangelicals for the lies, mischaracterization and bad-mouthing they have done against Mormons. Personally, I doubt that he himself was much to blame but it is accurate to say the majority of that come of hate-mongering comes from that constituency, so, for what it was worth, it was a nice gesture.... But oh my gosh, you would think he just pistol-whipped somebody’s grandmother. The same venom that had been directed towards Mormonism was then directed towards him because he had the audacity to be embarrassed by his own people’s bigotry.

Mouw then wrote an open letter of explanation. One part of the letter said: “But here is an obvious example of more recent vintage: when Dave Hunt writes a whole book whose main thesis is that Mormonism is Satanic in its inspiration and practice, I think this is bearing false witness.”

In response, Evidence Ministries said sarcastically:

“If Mormonism is not Satanically inspired, then what is it's origin?”

So yeah prisonchaplain, I think that there’s plenty of bigotry and dissension between the churches. I applaud ecumenicalism but if I were designing a body of believers, it’s not how I’d do it and I doubt that in the time of Christ or of the ancient prophets that “truth” was a function of an appeal to popularity.

[roman]

The subject of authority of God has always interested me. I believe that God does give authority to those who need it.

The authority of God does not flow exculsivly thru the lds church as they would have us believe----I do not need be a mormon to have authority from God--to baptize---preach or any other function that goes with Christianity.

From the very beginning of mormonism JS cried that God told him that all other churches were wrong and that JS said again that they had no authority to do anything-----what a clear violation from the already revealed word from God.

Mormonism is not on the other side of public critisim of others----from JS time to even now --lds tell us that we have no authority---no place in Gods dealing with the gospel---because we have not had hands laid on us by other mormons and that we don't confess JS as Gods prophet-----so in fact they do offend many in the Christian community with there elitism.

Then when other churches rise up and expose the lds gospel---mormon history----lds doctrine--and their true beliefs--as false and separate from true historical--orthodox and essential Christianity---lds throw out the hate and bigot card. what a crock---lds do the very same thing that they accuse others of doing---they say we are not true christian and are not as good as they are because we can't reach what they call the 3rd heaven------what intolerance

Sure lds have been murdered---chased away from the contryside--but so have almost every single christian denomination that is about at least 100 years old---we all experience those same things and we have all do alot of what snow says we do----but so does lds--only in different ways

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 12 2005, 07:46 AM

The subject of authority  of God has always interested me. I believe that God does give authority to  those who need it.

The authority of God does not flow exculsivly thru the lds church as they would have us believe----I do not need be a mormon to have authority from God--to baptize---preach or any other function that goes with Christianity.

From the very beginning of mormonism JS cried that God told him that all other churches were wrong and that JS said again that they had no authority to do anything-----what a clear violation from the already revealed word from God.

Mormonism is not on the other side of public critisim of others----from JS time to even now --lds tell us that we have no authority---no place in Gods dealing with the gospel---because we have not had hands laid on us by other mormons and that we don't confess JS as Gods prophet-----so in fact they do offend many in the Christian community with there elitism.

Then when other churches rise up and expose the lds gospel---mormon history----lds doctrine--and their true beliefs--as false and separate from true historical--orthodox and essential Christianity---lds throw out the hate and bigot card. what a crock---lds do the very same thing that they accuse others of doing---they say we are not true christian and are not as good as they are because we can't reach what they call the 3rd heaven------what intolerance

Sure lds have been murdered---chased away from the contryside--but so have almost every single christian denomination that is about at least 100 years old---we all experience those same things and we have all do alot of what snow says we do----but so does lds--only in different ways

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Talk about the crock.... you throw out what you perceive as fact.... you have no understanding yet tell us we are the ones off...

How can the blind see... and tell the world anything???

[roman]

Oh please---please if I'm sooooo wrong---please show me where. what did i post that was wrong? Or are you just by saying I'm wrong---that makes me wrong

do you accept my churches authority?

do you accept my water baptism?

Have others than lds been persecuted for their faith---murdered----chased from their homes?

Do lds often cry hatred and bigoted other churches messages?

do lds deny other christians partaking of certain of their activities?

BTW I ain't blind and I ain't trying to tell the world anything--I'm just post on this message board.

Now please answer fully and completely my questions to show me I'm wrong--please?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 12 2005, 12:35 PM

Oh please---please if I'm sooooo wrong---please show me where. what did i post that was wrong? Or are you just by saying I'm wrong---that makes me wrong

do you accept my churches authority?

do you accept my water baptism?

Have others than lds been persecuted for their faith---murdered----chased from their homes?

Do lds often cry hatred and bigoted other churches messages?

do lds deny other christians partaking of certain of their activities?

BTW I ain't blind and I ain't trying to tell the world anything--I'm just post on this message board.

Now please answer fully and completely my questions to show me I'm wrong--please?

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You do know you are on an lds board right? think about it.

I will just say... Christ has one true church... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The authority is only in this church to baptise, to seal on earth what is sealed on earth.

We never have claimed exclusive rights to being the persecuted for our religion... the history of the world tells otherwise... it is only those who want to snag the church who claim we say we are exclusive...

We do claim the Lord's chosen servants were murdered and sealed their testimoney with their blood...

We do claim that our homes built and paid for... were stollen over and over again... as our people were driven out of their newly constructed cities...

I find it interesting they weren't driven out until all the hard work was done... PIGS those who stole our property...

The country never did reinverse our church people for those losses...

PIGs who don't like the church because they are jealous or whatever... ( I never have figured out why people with their own religion continue to take their time to hammer our church and come to our boards.)... these no lifed pigs just want to take what others have...

[Snow]

Thanks for bearing your tesitmony Roman,

We already know what we believe and we know what you believe. Do you have a point to make - some explanation of why what you believe is better or more reasonable?

Btw, I have never heard a Mormon say that non-Mormon Christians are not real Christians. Do you have any evidence for making such a charge?

Further, it is absurd to say that Mormons are intolerant because we think that one must be Mormon to reach the celestial kingdom. We tolerate you very well - there is simply criteria, which we hold by faith, that needs to be followed. You wouldn't very well call Christians intolerant because they think you must accept Christ to be saved - that is just a criterion

[roman]

Wow you got some issues don't you? I sense a great deal of that hatred you hate so much just flowing from you. i;m wondering if you are as upset over the treatmemt Paul got in NT times as you are over JS or of others who have been treated just as bad from other demomanations?

As a lds do you realize how much history you deny in order to validate your claims

Yes, some mormoms were treated as you say---but if you think they were all just innocent and nice people---you are completely wrong AGAIN

You have brought up the jealousy thing before----what do you have that I could possibly be jealous over?---My personal relationship with Christ is just great. I'm surrounded by Godly people---I belong to a Christ centered---scripture believing Church--that has regular healing and deliverences----We excersice authority over the powers of darkness--as in casting out demons and getting the addicted set free and you want to tell me I'm wrong and jealous of what you got? What do you got?

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 12 2005, 02:05 PM

Thanks for bearing your tesitmony Roman,

We already know what we believe and we know what you believe. Do you have a point to make - some explanation of why what you believe is better or more reasonable?

Btw, I have never heard a Mormon say that non-Mormon Christians are not real Christians. Do you have any evidence for making such a charge?

Further, it is absurd to say that Mormons are intolerant because we think that one must be Mormon to reach the celestial kingdom. We tolerate you very well - there is simply criteria, which we hold by faith, that needs to be followed. You wouldn't very well call Christians intolerant because they think you must accept Christ to be saved - that is just a criterion

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Well said, Snow. B)

[roman]

Snow;

once again you have a good point.

To actual evidence--on a personal note, I have been told numerous times by lds that since i deny JS and the BoM--I can not be saved----I Ve also been told many times my water baptism is of no valve---a condition of lds salvation. In reality only a saved person should claim the name of Christ

On a grander scale lds doctrine and beliefs tell me I'm no christian--because true Christianity only comes thru the lds church---hence the authority issue of this thread.

The only point I would make is that my Christianity is based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ----as revealed by God ----and the witness of scripture

While --as I understand it anyway---lds is based on an organization---works and the testimony of JS

Other than that I agree with you

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 12 2005, 12:07 PM

As a lds do you realize how much history you deny in order to validate your claims

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Alright Roman,

I'm Mormon. How much history do I deny?

Don't answer, it's a rhetorical question. I don't deny any of it, and I am willing to wage that I know a good deal more about history than you do. I simply don't interpret the same way as you do - that's a far cry from denying it.

And, Please is not exactly a normal Mormon. Most of us do not jump up and down and cry bloody murder just because some one doesn't agree with Mormonism. Doing so is a sign of spiritual immaturity, but your tone certainly gives off vibes of anti-Mormonism. Instead of saying you disagree or don't accept, you use terms like "exposed" "false" "dishonest." In my opinion, you are clearly opposed to things Mormon primarily because they are Mormon and speak in inflamed and judgemental rhetoric. When you do that, people are going to react.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 12 2005, 02:16 PM

On a grander scale lds doctrine and beliefs tell me I'm no christian--because true Christianity only comes thru the lds church---hence the authority issue of this thread.

←

Source?

[roman]

snow----point taken and received in good conscience.

BTW I'm not saying to anyone but please about the history thing---so it doesn't apply to you---besides i got relatives out the ------- who are mormon and can give me history any time------But yes you probably do know more than i, but that doesn't take away from what I do know.

The interpret thing is very true and a valid comment on your part