Priesthood/Stake President

[Mohammad]

I have been told that Mormons believe that their church is the restored New Testament church or something like that.

I was wondering then, where some of these offices listed in your church are found in the Bible. Stake President for example, where is that one? General authority? I hear a lot about Stake Presidents, but I can't find it in the bible.

And deacons are in the New Testament, but they weren't 12 year old boys. That one certainly appears odd to me.

In the bible, a deacon was not part of the Aaronic priesthood. And frankly, I can't even find the Melchizedek priesthood anywhere in the bible other than a reference (book of Hebrews) to Jesus being a type of priest after King Melchizedek in the Hebrew Bible. This one also really confuses me.

So, I guess what I was wondering was whether your church really believes it is a restored New Testament church or if you aren't really that serious about it? Thanks!

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Mohammad,

This is from the Gospel Principles book we use (sort of a basic primer):

Christ’s Church Was Organized Again

On 6 April 1830, the Savior again directed the organization of his Church on the earth (see D&C 20:1). His Church is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (see D&C 115:4). Christ is the head of his Church today, just as he was in ancient times. The Lord has said that it is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased” (D&C 1:30).

Joseph Smith was sustained as prophet and “first elder” of the Church (see D&C 20:2–4). Later the First Presidency was organized, and he was sustained as President. When the Church was first organized, only the framework was set up. The organization was completed during the next several years.

The Church was organized with the same offices as were in the ancient Church. That organization included Apostles, prophets, seventies, evangelists (patriarchs), pastors (presiding officers), high priests, elders, bishops, priests, teachers, and deacons. These same offices are in his Church today (see Articles of Faith 1:6).

A prophet, acting under the direction of the Lord, leads the Church. This prophet is also the President of the Church. He holds all the authority necessary to direct the Lord’s work on earth (see D&C 107:65, 91). Two counselors assist the President. Twelve Apostles, who are special witnesses of Jesus Christ, teach the gospel in all parts of the world. Other general officers of the Church with special assignments include the Presiding Bishopric and the Quorums of the Seventy.

The offices of the priesthood include Apostles, seventies, patriarchs, high priests, elders, priests, teachers, and deacons. These are the same offices that existed in the original Church.

The Church has grown much larger than it was in the days of Jesus. As it has grown, the Lord has revealed additional units of organization within the Church. When the Church is fully organized in an area, it has local divisions called stakes. A stake president and his two counselors preside over each stake. The stake has twelve high councilors who help do the Lord’s work in the stake. Melchizedek Priesthood quorums are organized in the stake under the direction of the stake president (see chapter 14, “Priesthood Organization”).

Each stake is divided into smaller areas called wards. A bishop and his two counselors preside over each ward. In areas of the world where the Church is developing, there are missions, which are divided into the smaller units of districts, branches, and families.

Please also see the chapter on Priesthood Organization. Others might have some better references on tracing the priesthood of Aaron and Melchizedek through history - my reference is rather basic.

Basically, it's not a carbon copy exact duplicate of Christ's organization. It's a restoration of the same church Christ organized, not because everything is exactly the same as before, but because Christ organized it and sits at it's head.

LM

[Vanhin]

The offices of bishop, priest, teacher, and deacon are after the Levitical order.

The bishop is the New Testament name for the Aaronic High Priest of the Old Testament, and a direct first born male descendant of Aaron can hold this office without counselors. In the absence of this, a high priest after the order of Melchizedek can fill the office of bishop. He must have two counselors who are also both Melchizedek high priests.

Priest is still a traditional office of the Aaronic order, teachers and deacons are further divisions in the Christian era that fill the role the Levites did anciently.

Under the direction of the bishop in a ward, the Aaronic prieshood officiates over and administers the Sacrament (the Lord's Supper), which replaced many of the ordinances and performances of the Old Testament Aaronic priesthood. Christs sacrifice fulfilled the law of Moses, and did away with sacrifice by the shedding of blood. Now members of the Church bring a sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit in preparation for receiving the Sacrament. But the Aaronic priesthood continues in it vital role in administering the ordinances involved, which now, instead of pointing to the coming of the Messiah, remind us that He has come.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Concerning Stake Presidents, President Gordon B. Hinckley taught:

The office came into the Church in 1832. Joseph Smith, the President of the Church, was also stake president. When a new stake was organized in Missouri in 1834, this pattern was changed, with officers drawn from the ranks of the priesthood.

This is an office that came of revelation. The organization of a stake represents the creation of a family of wards and branches. The program of the Church has become increasingly complex, and the demands upon stake presidencies have grown. Smaller stakes have been created. We now have 2,550 stakes in the Church, with more approved for organization.

The president of the stake is the officer called under revelation to stand between the bishops of wards and the General Authorities of the Church. It is a most important responsibility. He is trained by the General Authorities, and in turn he trains the bishops. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Stake President)

The Stake President is a new office, specifically for the this dispensation in the Latter-days, when the stakes of Zion would cover the earth. In a very real way, they represent the First Presidency in a Stake, and as such, they are the president of the priesthood in a stake. Much of the instructions given to Joseph Smith concerning the presidency of the priesthood applies to Stake Presidents as well.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

I should also point out that "Stake President" is simply a title for the presiding high priest in the stake, he is the high priest who holds "keys" of priesthood authority over all the priesthood in the stake.

The bishop, if he is a Mechizedek high priest, is the presiding high priest in the ward (congregation). By virtue of the office of bishop, he is also the president of the Aaronic priesthood in the given ward, and holds the "keys" of authority over his priesthood stewardship.

Regards,

Vanhin

[mnn727]

I have been told that Mormons believe that their church is the restored New Testament church or something like that.

!

Thats not quite true, Gods Priesthood authority was restored to the earth and His Church organized in these latter days, that does not mean its exactly the same as something 2000 years prior. Organizations, even Gods Church, change to support changing needs. The Gospel doesn't change, the principles don't change, the organization does.

[Just_A_Guy]

I have been told that Mormons believe that their church is the restored New Testament church or something like that.

I was wondering then, where some of these offices listed in your church are found in the Bible. Stake President for example, where is that one? General authority? I hear a lot about Stake Presidents, but I can't find it in the bible.

One of our Articles of Faith reads:

"We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, Evangelists, and so forth."

Like Vanhin says, "Stake President" is merely a title for someone whose office is technically "high priest". In areas where the Church is not so firmly established, the analog is a "District President" whose office may be "elder".

And deacons are in the New Testament, but they weren't 12 year old boys. That one certainly appears odd to me.

Indeed. When the LDS Church formed deacons were typically grown men (and some other "restorationist" churches--churches descended from the teachings of Joseph Smith--retain this practice). At some point in our history, though, the concept of the Aaronic Priesthood and its offices as being "training positions" for the Melchizedek Priesthood came into being. We Mormons find that, when properly supervised and coordinated with the adult leadership, twelve-year-olds are perfectly capable of fulfilling the scriptural duties of a "deacon" as we understand those duties.

In the bible, a deacon was not part of the Aaronic priesthood. And frankly, I can't even find the Melchizedek priesthood anywhere in the bible other than a reference (book of Hebrews) to Jesus being a type of priest after King Melchizedek in the Hebrew Bible. This one also really confuses me.

A founding tenet of Mormonism is that the Bible is, in and of itself, incomplete.

So, I guess what I was wondering was whether your church really believes it is a restored New Testament church or if you aren't really that serious about it? Thanks!

I think it would be accurate to say that we deem ourselves to be what the New Testament church would have become under the same circumstances we currently face, if it had retained the authority Christ originally left it.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Also, if you check out Isaiah, it talks about the "stakes of zion", and enlarging their borders etcetera. So the concept of a "stake" isn't without Biblical reference.

[Mohammad]

So I guess what you all are saying is it isn't the same as the original New Testament organization but the organization that existed before is used as a model with some innovations thrown in?

I think that is what you all are saying.

[Taldarin]

It is the original church restored to the earth and subject to modern revelation about how God wants his church organized.

Times are significantly different, and our Father continues to reveal to us how to deal with the oncoming storm.

It's why one prophet at one point in time is not sufficient for all time. More prophets were obviously needed because times change and we're always confronting problems we haven't had to confront before. That way, we keep moving forward from the additional revelations and guidance from God.

[Vort]

So I guess what you all are saying is it isn't the same as the original New Testament organization but the organization that existed before is used as a model with some innovations thrown in?

I think that is what you all are saying.

Does anyone really believe that Mohammed is asking questions in sincerity?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[Guest mormonmusic]

Does anyone really believe that Mohammed is asking questions in sincerity?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt so far. He hasn't repeatedly refuted anyone, hasn't pulled out any stock anti-Mormon arguments, and appears to be trying to assimilate what everyone said before him. His tone has been largely respectful, except for maybe indicating "we aren't too serious" about maintaining the primitive Church organization. However, that might just be a wording issue.

Also regarding the "innovations thrown in", I think one has to acknowledge that the current organization has evolved to cope with circumstances which didn't exist at the time of the Primitive Church. For example, the organization of a large, international Church is going to have to evolve. At the time time of Christ, His Church was relatively small. So although our organization is patterned after the primtive Church, it doesn't mean everything has to be EXACTLY the same to perpetuity. Organizations need to adapt as they change and grow.

Part of the purpose of this life is to learn, to do new things, to fail, and learn from the experience. I don't think the Lord spares us of this process in His Church, so various offices will come and go, like the office of Seventy did at the Ward level.

[Mohammad]

I'm just trying to understand how certain offices like Stake President fit in. I think in general you have given me some good answers. But like I said before, it seems like what you are saying is the New Testament church is used as a framework or blueprint (maybe I'm not using the right word) or model maybe?

You have to realize that I have studied christianity somewhat but probably am not as knowledgeable as you, I'm sure, but some churches tend to follow the New Testament structure (or claim to) and some don't even try. Mormonism, I understand is one that says that it follows the New Testament organizational model. But there are a lot of things in Mormonism that I don't see in the the New Testament church. Stake president, authorities, first presidency, etc., I don't think are mentioned. On the other hand, I do see seventies, elders, bishops, and deacons.

[Taldarin]

Just because it's not in our current bible doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't in the New Testament church.

How many books have we lost over time again?

The Bible is not a complete record, and it doesn't claim to be. There is no reason to presume that it contains everything we could possibly know about the structure and organization of the primitive church.

[Vort]

I'm just trying to understand how certain offices like Stake President fit in. I think in general you have given me some good answers. But like I said before, it seems like what you are saying is the New Testament church is used as a framework or blueprint (maybe I'm not using the right word) or model maybe?

You have to realize that I have studied christianity somewhat but probably am not as knowledgeable as you, I'm sure, but some churches tend to follow the New Testament structure (or claim to) and some don't even try. Mormonism, I understand is one that says that it follows the New Testament organizational model. But there are a lot of things in Mormonism that I don't see in the the New Testament church. Stake president, authorities, first presidency, etc., I don't think are mentioned. On the other hand, I do see seventies, elders, bishops, and deacons.

How explicit do you think the details of administrative organization were made in the gospels and epistles that survive from that time? Are you looking for a handbook of Priesthood organization?

The office of stake president is a logical, obvious administrative necessity. I have no doubt that such an office or its equivalent existed in the primitive Church if it grew to the size that such was needed before its apostasy. That it is not mentioned in the New Testament is irrelevant. It's like saying that Thomas wasn't married because, hey, his wife was never mentioned, or that Simon Peter and his wife didn't have any children because, hey, they are never mentioned.

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm just trying to understand how certain offices like Stake President fit in. I think in general you have given me some good answers. But like I said before, it seems like what you are saying is the New Testament church is used as a framework or blueprint (maybe I'm not using the right word) or model maybe?

.

I think that's fair with regard to the organizational structure of the modern LDS Church. But the authority behind that organization is one and the same.

Stake president, authorities, first presidency, etc., I don't think are mentioned. On the other hand, I do see seventies, elders, bishops, and deacons.

Well, "authorities" is just a generic name for specific positions (apostle, seventy, etc). I do see your point with regard to the titles of stake presidents and a first presidency. On the other hand, I think you could make a very good case that the NT Church had the functional equivalent of stake presidents; and the NT does mention "apostles" who apparently were not numbered among the twelve (which is similar to the role of a member of the LDS First Presidency).

[ozzy]

Something I will point out (hopefully in any thread that expresses a difference between the biblical church and the current church) is that we have a living prophet. So like in the bible, we are subject to organizational changes, as well as additional divine insight to current issues. As an example of organizational change in the bible, there were no apostles mentioned in the old testament. However Christ saw fit to change that. The similarity is that today, the prophet (guided by God) can make certain organizational adjustments to fit the needs of the church, of which there are many since there are 13 million members now. I may be wrong but I get the feeling there weren't 13 million then.