Sweden's Attack On Free Speech And Religion.

[Fiannan]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9840787/

This is ultimately what many liberals would like to have here in the USA. Today, a student can get in trouble for questioning homosexuality or opposing university policy that (in the name of political correctness) promotes the agenda of homosexuality. This has spread into some workplaces and public schools. But you can't go to jail -- yet!

In Sweden, this Pentecostal minister may go to jail because it is technically illegal to question the morality of homosexuality -- even in a church! If a Mormon gives a talk on homosexuality they can quote scripture, but not then interpret it to say homosexuality is wrong -- same with other churches. This is what Sweden's "hate crime laws" have evolved into.

Any thoughts?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Nov 9 2005, 11:58 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9840787/

This is ultimately what many liberals would like to have here in the USA.  Today, a student can get in trouble for questioning homosexuality or opposing university policy that (in the name of political correctness) promotes the agenda of homosexuality.  This has spread into some workplaces and public schools. But you can't go to jail -- yet!

In Sweden, this Pentecostal minister may go to jail because it is technically illegal to question the morality of homosexuality -- even in a church!  If a Mormon gives a talk on homosexuality they can quote scripture, but not then interpret it to say homosexuality is wrong -- same with other churches.  This is what Sweden's "hate crime laws" have evolved into.

Any thoughts?

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My thought is that this is a frightening precidence...

[lisajo]

OUCH!!!!!!!!!! wont be headin to Sweden any time soon!

[Snow]

Originally posted by Please@Nov 9 2005, 12:26 PM

My thought is that this is a frightening precidence...

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Yeah - be afraid, be very afraid. As Sweden goes, so goes the world.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Snow+Nov 9 2005, 08:31 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Nov 9 2005, 12:26 PM

My thought is that this is a frightening precidence...

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Yeah - be afraid, be very afraid. As Sweden goes, so goes the world.

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Absolutely

[Fiannan]

Liberals hold up Sweden as a beaken of what socialism could be for the USA. Believe me, there may be a reason for the choice of the word "Borg" for the villians in Star Trek. Borg refers to "fort" in Swedish and the conformity among the people makes a small town in Utah look like a Greatful Dead concert.

[Guest Ari 2]

This is ultimately what many liberals would like to have here in the USA. Today, a student can get in trouble for questioning homosexuality or opposing university policy that (in the name of political correctness) promotes the agenda of homosexuality. This has spread into some workplaces and public schools. But you can't go to jail -- yet!

In Sweden, this Pentecostal minister may go to jail because it is technically illegal to question the morality of homosexuality -- even in a church! If a Mormon gives a talk on homosexuality they can quote scripture, but not then interpret it to say homosexuality is wrong -- same with other churches. This is what Sweden's "hate crime laws" have evolved into.

Any thoughts?

_____________________

I posted something somewhere that I can't find now lol...but it was in regard to a conversation in live chat regarding homosexuality. This member/chatter was defending the gay position, stating that the Church didn't teach "all of the truth," and neither did Pres. Hinckley. Amazing, I brought up hate crime laws...and why aren't heterosexuals protected equally? I have found in my 5 yrs of chatting, that ppl are so apt to shoot the messenger, as opposed to "reading" his message. It has been my experience, that many in the wrong, will attack a person personally, once they've lost the argument!

[Fiannan]

Wasn't it Lenin who once said that he would admit that people have a right to say what they want, but they have to concede that he had a right to shoot them for saying it?

Should be the motto -- of the Swedish government and the political correct crowd here in the US.

[Jason]

Fiannan,

I consider myself a Liberal, but I don't believe in baning free speech. Perhaps you should rethink your "savage nation" attitude and not lump everyone that's a liberal into a single pile.

And remember, if it were'nt for Liberalism, our Nation would still be a commonwealth of England!

[Fiannan]

Oh now Jason, the liberalism you refer to is the kind expoused by Adam Smith and John Locke -- the type that calls for small government and big civil liberties (the inspiration for the founding fathers).

Yes, I do know lots of liberals (strange, I'm fairly conservative but I like to hang out with liberals -- they seem to be into the things I'm into) who hate any government censorship of freedom. It's the "once we get power we'll act like the image we have of conservatives" type of liberals I oppose (like the ones who currently rule Sweden and the ones who seem to dominate certain universities).

[pushka]

I believe in free speech, however I believe in responsible free speech. Over here in the UK we have a ban on speech which incites HATRED, mainly racial hatred at the moment, because that seems to be most prevalent due to immigration issues...therefore, I would advise any preacher, in any religion, to exercise caution when preaching against homosexuality, as his/her words may be used as an excuse for extremists to be less than Christian towards homosexuals as a result of listening to their sermon.

Oh, and Fiannan, don't you think it's about time you stopped all your anti Swede/Lutheran posts? spreading discontent like this isn't very Christian is it? I suggest you sort out your personal hang ups about that religion and your wife in private instead of bringing it to the message board and using it against Maureen on the other thread...not nice!

[Fiannan]

Pushka, nothing I say about Sweden or what the Lutheran church has evolved into even comes close to what many Swedes say. At least I label Sweden a failed socialist experiemnt while she drides it as communist and dictitorial (except the leader wears a business suit and not a military uniform with a ton of medals).

I get along with Protestants quite well -- Muslims too, although that doesn't mean I won't question them. More than once I have had Muslim associates say that I would make an excellent Muslim. I will note that I went to Utah once with two Muslims (one from Iraq, the other from Albania) and they loved it -- they were impressed that there were actually Christians who lived the concepts of Christianity (their words, not mine).

My points about Lutheranism may be an attempt to get Maureeen to think. Martin Luther, if alive today, would not recognize the Lutheran Church. For that matter, if you could bring back the leaders of the Lutheran Church from only 60 or 70 years ago they would be shocked at the stands of the religion in regards to birth control, many denominations in regards to gay marriage, and a rather lukewarm approach to the Bible. I suppose it would be like bringing Jefferson, Madison, Adams, etc. to life and seeing what they would think of the American government -- they would probably get started on organizing a revolution. As time goes on often ideas totally contrary to an organization, religion or government creap in as "enlightened" -- problem is, people get so "enlightened" they depart so far from the original concepts that the group no longer represents the original purpose.

As for so called "hate speech" in the UK I think England should listen to Mr. Bean (Rowan Atkinson) and not a bunch of PCers who, in the name of being nice, would scrap freedom of expression.

[USNationalist]

Countries that exercise strict gun control seem to have alot of "freedom" problems.

[Guest Ari 2]

I found this so amusing Ari being i was in the room and most of the hate and judgment seemed to be coming from you. And the only name calling was you calling the other member gay. You said all gays were out to recruit non gays into their life style and all gays were pedophiles. So what was your point in this post?

I will agree the hate and baseless fact you stated were wrong and i accept your apology. I knew no member of the church of Christ could be that spiteful or full of hate. This makes me feel so much better.

Now seriously, you attacked a group of people with a rant that brought to mind recordings i have seen of KKK meetings and quoted facts that were so far off base and biased that not even a 12 year old would have bothered. Yes the Church does not condone the gay life style, we are all aware of that, but it's the actions not the people that is the Sin.

The discusion that night hit a lot of nerves, with a lot of people and i've talked to a few who were in that room that night who were horrified by some of the things said by both sides. I'm tired of hearing choose the right, and what would Jesus do, how about we start doing it instead of just saying the words. I can not picture Jesus ever lashing out the ways i have seen some members(board members) do. We all need to step back and really look at what we are saying and why it is being said.

This post has been edited by Soulsearcher: Yesterday, 03:12 PM

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Thank you for proving my point! lolol

[pushka]

Fiannan, thanks for your reply...I'm pleased to hear that you get on well with people from other religious denominations, and I can understand your discomfort with the changes over the years, within the Lutheran church...I just felt that your arguments were getting a little too personal with Maureen, a bit like children arguing in a playground? and got the impression that ALL Swedish people must be bad, in your opinion. Thanks for correcting my assumptions.

I think it is better to be cautious in our speech, than to openly spread hatred about one another and thus sparking riots and other 'nasty' events. Don't you believe in freedom with responsibility? Don't you think that should apply to all aspects of our lives?

USN: Do you feel that we should settle all disagreements by shooting each other?

Quote, USN: 'Countries that exercise strict gun control seem to have alot of "freedom" problems.' Unquote.

[shanstress70]

Pushka, I can't speak for USN, but in my opinion, countries who start taking away guns from citizens are taking a very important right from people. If citizens can't defend their families, society is hopeless. The bad guys will always get guns. The 'good', law-abiding citizens are the ones who are affected, in a negative way.

I never really thought much about guns before I married my husband, but he is a gun owner. And I will say that I sleep a bit better knowing that if someone breaks in, we will most likely be taken care of. 911 doesn't work in the case of an armed person breaking into your house. 10 minutes isn't quick enough for a policeman to get there to help you!

And yes we have a child, but the guns in the house are in a locked safe right by our bed. Even though I'm all for gun rights, I'm also for responsibility where guns are concerned.

[Fiannan]

Utah has a high percentage of homes with guns, more children per household than any other state, and the lowest rate of accidental gun deaths for children in the country.

Pushka, I am one of those free speech fanatics maybe. If some anti Mormon wants to post a billboard saying Mormons are (fill in the blank) I might not like it but I would not want the state to step in an stop it. Better to state how we feel and get issues in the open than repress feelings and create more hostility in the longrun.

[USNationalist]

never occoured to me to just shoot people who disagree with me... good thinken, that will make things alot easier.

What i was thinking was just to shoot people who threaten your life, or liberty or that of your future lineage.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Nov 11 2005, 06:44 PM

never occoured to me to just shoot people who disagree with me... good thinken, that will make things alot easier.

What i was thinking was just to shoot people who threaten your life, or liberty or that of your future lineage.

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ROLF!!!

[pushka]

Sorry I haven't replied to this earlier...sort of lost the thread with all the other new replies in other threads in this forum.

I can understand why, living in a country where people are already allowed to carry guns openly, you mainly hold the opinion that this is for the best and the safest option. Of course I can see the value in having a gun available as a deterrent if somebody is trying to harm you, unfortunately it can become all too easy to rely on this in matters that are less dangerous/life threatening, and I think that is why we have gun controls in the UK.

It would be interesting to see some sort of comparison between crime rates/per population figures between countries where guns are allowed and countries such as the UK where there are more restrictions.

[Guest LDSister]

Originally posted by pushka@Nov 17 2005, 04:04 AM

It would be interesting to see some sort of comparison between crime rates/per population figures between countries where guns are allowed and countries such as the UK where there are more restrictions.

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____________________________

A friend sent me an email written by a policeman from Australia, comparing crime statistics prior to and after gun confiscation. He said crime rates went up considerably. Criminals will always have access to weapons (even if they have to make them).

What is imperative is that citizens have the right guaranteed in the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, to protect us from criminals with weapons.

I love what Charlton Heston, former pres. of the NRA said in regard disarmament in the US:

"From my cold dead hands..."

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by LDSister+Nov 17 2005, 09:11 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-pushka@Nov 17 2005, 04:04 AM

It would be interesting to see some sort of comparison between crime rates/per population figures between countries where guns are allowed and countries such as the UK where there are more restrictions.

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____________________________

A friend sent me an email written by a policeman from Australia, comparing crime statistics prior to and after gun confiscation. He said crime rates went up considerably. Criminals will always have access to weapons (even if they have to make them).

What is imperative is that citizens have the right guaranteed in the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, to protect us from criminals with weapons.

I love what Charlton Heston, former pres. of the NRA said in regard disarmament in the US:

"From my cold dead hands..."

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Does anyone know where to find that prophecy which said that in the very last days... we would have to defend ourselves from our own homes...?

[Josie]

Thought it was very interesting in last night's world news, that IRS has threatened to remove a churches tax exempt status because the minister spoke out from the pulpit against President Bush in the last election. We talk about free speech. That was here in America and I am sorry, I cannot remember where or which church. It was just that local church.

But my point is, the IRS considered that mixing church and state. I had never thought anything about it until then. But, it seems a bit drastic to me.

[Guest LDSister]

Originally posted by Josie@Nov 17 2005, 09:53 AM

Thought it was very interesting in last night's world news, that IRS has threatened to remove a churches tax exempt status because the minister spoke out from the pulpit against President Bush in the last election.  We talk about free speech.  That was here in America and I am sorry, I cannot remember where or which church.  It was just that local church. 

But my point is, the IRS considered that mixing church and state.  I had never thought anything about it until then.  But, it seems a bit drastic to me.

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___________________________

The opposite extreme is hearing IRS employees warn ppl from the pulpit to pay their taxes!

Pres. Benson stated that certain individuals are using the pulpit as pipelines for collectivist and socialistic propaganda. I guess it pays to be on the "winning" side of the argument. lol

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Josie@Nov 17 2005, 09:53 AM

Thought it was very interesting in last night's world news, that IRS has threatened to remove a churches tax exempt status because the minister spoke out from the pulpit against President Bush in the last election.  We talk about free speech.  That was here in America and I am sorry, I cannot remember where or which church.  It was just that local church. 

But my point is, the IRS considered that mixing church and state.  I had never thought anything about it until then.  But, it seems a bit drastic to me.

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That is down right frightening... but then so is the way we have been throwing away freedoms left and right since Bush got in... calling it security...

Is there any security in captivity? Are we not like captives without freedoms?