Believers And Politics

[prisonchaplain]

The Rev. Jerry Falwell once preached a sermon entitled "Why Christians should not be involved in politics." He later repented of his message, and founded the Moral Majority. Religious conservatives avoided politics throughout the civil rights era of the sixtiesand early seventies. The 1972 Roe v. Wade decision was seen as a wake up call, that lead to the formation of the "religious right." Yet, the religious left has never died. There have been renewed calls for Christians to protect the environment, to support worldwide AIDS relief through the One Campaign, to oppose Walmart for it's anti-union and low wages/benefits for workers. What would God have his people do?

[lisajo]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 14 2005, 12:11 AM

The Rev. Jerry Falwell once preached a sermon entitled "Why Christians should not be involved in politics."  He later repented of his message, and founded the Moral Majority.  Religious conservatives avoided politics throughout the civil rights era of the sixtiesand early seventies.  The 1972 Roe v. Wade decision was seen as a wake up call, that lead to the formation of the "religious right."  Yet, the religious left has never died.  There have been renewed calls for Christians to protect the environment, to support worldwide AIDS relief through the One Campaign, to oppose Walmart for it's anti-union and low wages/benefits for workers.  What would God have his people do?

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You are so deep in thought!

I just have to have my Wal-mart would God not want me to go there? LOL

Thanks for your nice posts

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by lisajo+Nov 14 2005, 01:14 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-prisonchaplain@Nov 14 2005, 12:11 AM

The Rev. Jerry Falwell once preached a sermon entitled "Why Christians should not be involved in politics."  He later repented of his message, and founded the Moral Majority.  Religious conservatives avoided politics throughout the civil rights era of the sixtiesand early seventies.  The 1972 Roe v. Wade decision was seen as a wake up call, that lead to the formation of the "religious right."  Yet, the religious left has never died.  There have been renewed calls for Christians to protect the environment, to support worldwide AIDS relief through the One Campaign, to oppose Walmart for it's anti-union and low wages/benefits for workers.  What would God have his people do?

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You are so deep in thought!

I just have to have my Wal-mart would God not want me to go there? LOL

Thanks for your nice posts

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Do not read any leanings into my post. I'll share my thoughts once this string takes off, and my vote is buried in the statistics. My hope is that this particular topic will prove fun and stress relieving. Hey, at a website where most posts are religious, deeply personal, and intensely felt, even politics feels like "just chatting!"

[Guest Member_Deleted]

poll :Stay away from politics--it's all corrupt and beyond redemption

I voted for staying away from politics... because they are corrupt beyond redemption...

But I don't consider it politics to confront issues of the day... and stand up for life and truth.

We can do it better outside of the corrupt political ring...

It used to be that writting a letter or calling made a difference... not now.. not as an individual... I know... I have tried that...

but you join a group like the woman who stood outside of Bush's home who was joined by lots of people... you get news coverage and more people come to the cause and group...

[Josie]

The Church leaders have told us to cast our ballots and vote. We are suppose to be aware of what is going on around us and vote our conscience. Look what the people have done to Macy's this season and Wal-mart. They got both of them to put Christ back into Christmas. It has been all over the news. That was not at the ballot box, but with the threat of their pocket books. And I say more power to them... We can make our voices heard and we can make them adhere to what is right. If we stand as a group and fight at the voting booth or with our wallet, they have to listen. We don't have to march in a demonstration to be heard. There are other ways, and I am not sure that the demonstrations get the attention we would want.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Josie@Nov 14 2005, 12:02 PM

The Church leaders have told us to cast our ballots and vote.  We are suppose to be aware of what is going on around us and vote our conscience.  Look what the people have done to Macy's this season and Wal-mart.  They got both of them to put Christ back into Christmas.  It has been all over the news.  That was not at the ballot box, but with the threat of their pocket books.  And I say more power to them...  We can make our voices heard and we can make them adhere to what is right.  If we stand as a group and fight at the voting booth or with our wallet, they have to listen.  We don't have to march in a demonstration to be heard.  There are other ways, and I am not sure that the demonstrations get the attention we would want.

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NO matter who you voted for last election... all the votes went to Bush and not legally or ethically. I believe we can understand the word vote or cast your ballot ... as get your opinon heard and counted... I don't believe the public are being heard or counted in these rigged elections boxes...

[Guest Ari 2]

Being on the right side of the war in heaven was the reason we received a body. Does God expect us to be on the wrong side of this issue today? Whatever is a threat to our free agency, is an issue worth fighting against. There are many LDS legislators in my state. Thank goodness for sensible, moral, decent, upstanding citizens who run for public office...otherwise, I wouldn't have anybody to vote for!

BTW, Joseph Smith organized a militia and ran for president. If we don't vote, who can we blame if corrupt ppl win an election?

I voted with the majority:

Learn the issues and vote for intelligent and morally responsible candidates

[prisonchaplain]

It's time to let the cat out of the bag! I believe that God would have ME vote Republican. Lock-step? No. Are there exceptions? Yes. We have a state representative who is intelligent, works hard, and shows great respect for people of faith. I generally vote for him, even though he's Democrat. However, especially for national elections, I nearly always vote Republican. Why? Because Orthodox Jewish Rabbi, Daniel Lapin is right when he says American will rise or fall depending on whether it continues to embrace (or returns to embracing) its Judeo-Christain foundational mores. I want to keep the 10 Commandments posted in public places. Schools should be nuetral, not antagonistic towards religion. Abortion should be illegal in most cases. Intelligent Design should at least get a hearing in something other than a media kangaroo court. Abstinence should be the anchor of any sex education curriculum. Faith-based charities should not be immediately suspect, when it comes to public funding. School vouchers and other charter options would open private, religiously grounded education to more students. In all of these issues, there is one party that clearly agrees with me.

Additionally, with the unfortunate extreme polarization into Red and Blue, the Democrats have increasingly taken a hostile stance against religion--especially evangelical Christianity. One party seeks to attract preachers, while the other appeals to Hollywood. I prefer the former.

People of faith vote for Democrats, and they have compelling reasons. But, the question is, What would God have me do? The issues that attract me draw me to the other side of the aisle.

One more point. I do believe that it is wise to find the party that most often rallies for my issues, and to support that party. There is power in working together. The people that are most likely to vote independent are moderates. Even there, the contrast between the GOP and the Democrats is so stark these days, it should not be to hard to commit, at least generally, to the moderate wing of one or the other.

So, there's my bombshell for the day.

P.S. Walmart is a social blessing, IMHO. It offers jobs to unskilled laborers, who are often taking their first job. It also offers low-priced products to people who greatly need to get a lot with a little. Ultimately, those who are so harsh in their criticism of Walmart, are often guilty of elitism. They would never shop there because...hey, they have enough money, so they don't have to.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Chaplain : P.S. Walmart is a social blessing, IMHO. It offers jobs to unskilled laborers, who are often taking their first job. It also offers low-priced products to people who greatly need to get a lot with a little. Ultimately, those who are so harsh in their criticism of Walmart, are often guilty of elitism. They would never shop there because...hey, they have enough money, so they don't have to.

I agree with you on this point at least.

[Guest Ari 2]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 14 2005, 05:31 PM

It's time to let the cat out of the bag!     I believe that God would have ME vote Republican.  Lock-step?  No.  Are there exceptions?  Yes.  We have a state representative who is intelligent, works hard, and shows great respect for people of faith.  I generally vote for him, even though he's Democrat.  However, especially for national elections, I nearly always vote Republican.  Why?  Because Orthodox Jewish Rabbi, Daniel Lapin is right when he says American will rise or fall depending on whether it continues to embrace (or returns to embracing) its Judeo-Christain foundational mores.  I want to keep the 10 Commandments posted in public places.  Schools should be nuetral, not antagonistic towards religion.  Abortion should be illegal in most cases.  Intelligent Design should at least get a hearing in something other than a media kangaroo court.  Abstinence should be the anchor of any sex education curriculum.  Faith-based charities should not be immediately suspect, when it comes to public funding.  School vouchers and other charter options would open private, religiously grounded education to more students.  In all of these issues, there is one party that clearly agrees with me. 

Additionally, with the unfortunate extreme polarization into Red and Blue, the Democrats have increasingly taken a hostile stance against religion--especially evangelical Christianity.  One party seeks to attract preachers, while the other appeals to Hollywood.  I prefer the former.

People of faith vote for Democrats, and they have compelling reasons.  But, the question is, What would God have me do?  The issues that attract me draw me to the other side of the aisle.

One more point.  I do believe that it is wise to find the party that most often rallies for my issues, and to support that party.  There is power in working together.  The people that are most likely to vote independent are moderates.  Even there, the contrast between the GOP and the Democrats is so stark these days, it should not be to hard to commit, at least generally, to the moderate wing of one or the other.

So, there's my bombshell for the day. 

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Oh my, I feel confession time coming on...time to drop another bombshell.

I'm a registered Republican...I voted for George Bush Jr. (not Sr.), and I'd vote for him again. (duck)...whew...no flying bullets that time.

P.S. You go, Chaplain...I agree with ya!

[pushka]

My vote went to 'learn the issues...'

As an anarchist I am encouraged not to vote in elections, however I do have difficulty with that, due to my feelings about the Right to Vote that women fought for. Having said that, I do not feel that any one political party in the UK represents all of my opinions, and I would not like to 'blanket' vote for 1 party just because it had similar opinions to mine, but very diffferent ones on some important issues.

The stance of our local Anarchist group is to use 'Direct Action' and talking to the people we mix with at work, or in other environments, find out what they take issue with, and to try to persuade as many other people, those involved in politics and those who aren't, to see the reasons why these people, and us, want changes made, and hopefully achieve some of them that way. Lobbying I suppose is the correct word to use!

Btw, I prefer definition 6 of www.dictionary.com for Politics:

'The often internally conflicting interrelationships among people in a society.'

to any other...that way, we're all involved in politics, whether we like it or not :)

[Guest Ari 2]

Sorry, this was a blooper lol.

[Guest Ari 2]

President Ezra Taft Benson explains in an article entitled "Not Commanded In All Things" the clever arguments that satan uses to discourage members from getting involved in the political process:

The devil knows that if the elders of Israel should ever wake up, they could step forth and help preserve freedom and extend the gospel. Therefore, the devil has concentrated...in neutralizing much of the priesthood. He has reduced them to sleeping giants...

Here are a few examples:

First: "We really haven't received much instruction about freedom," the devil says. This is a lie, for we have been warned time and again. Last conference I spoke of a book embodying much of the prophets' warnings... entitled Prophets, Principles, and National Survival.

Second: "You're too involved in other church work," says the devil. But freedom is a weighty matter of the law; the lesser principles of the the gospel you should keep but not leave this one undone...your other church work will be limited once you lose your freedom as our Saints have found in Czechoslovakia, Poland, and many other nations.

Third: "You want to be loved by everyone," says the devil, "and this freedom battle is so controversial you might be accused of engaging in politics." Of course the government has penetrated so much of our lives that one can hardly speak for freedom without being accused of being political. Some might even call the war in heaven a political struggle--certainly it was controversial. Yet the valiant entered it with Michael. Those who support only the popular principles of the gospel have their reward. And those who want to lead the quiet, retiring life but still expect to do their full duty can't have it both ways.

Fourth: "Wait until it becomes popular to do," says the devil, "or at least until everyone in the Church agrees upon what should be done." But this fight for freedom might never become popular in our day. And if you wait until everyone agrees in this Church, you will be waiting through the second coming of the Lord.

Fifth: "It might hurt your business or your family," says the devil, "and besides why not let the gentiles save the country? They aren't as busy as you are." Well, there were many businessmen who went along with Hitler because it supposedly helped their business. They lost everything.

Sixth: "Don't worry," says the devil, "the Lord will protect you, and besides the world is so corrupt and heading toward destruction at such a pace that you can't stop it, so why try." Well, to begin with, the Lord will not protect us unless we do our part...the Book of Mormon warns us that when we should see these murderous conspiracies in our midst that we should awake to our awful situation.

And now for the last neutralizer..."Don't do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own specific program to save the Constitution." Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if he set one up at this time it might split the Church asunder, and perhaps he does not want that to happen yet for all the wheat and tares are not fully ripe.

President David O. McKay has called communism the greatest threat to the Church, and it is certainly the greatest moral threat this country has ever faced...the longer we wait, the heavier the chains, the deeper the blood, the more the persecution, and the less we can carry out our God-given mandate and world-wide mission. The war in heaven is raging on the earth today. Are you being neutralized in the battle?

[seamusz]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 14 2005, 06:31 PM

P.S.  Walmart is a social blessing, IMHO.  It offers jobs to unskilled laborers, who are often taking their first job.  It also offers low-priced products to people who greatly need to get a lot with a little.  Ultimately, those who are so harsh in their criticism of Walmart, are often guilty of elitism.  They would never shop there because...hey, they have enough money, so they don't have to.

Sorry, I can't resist...

I think that you would be surprised to find that although WM does offer jobs to unskilled laborers, this is not the cas for a majority of employees. Also, the low-priced products are priced low at the cost of the companies who sell them to wallyworld, and the underpaid/underbenifited employees. And although elitism may be a factor from some, I would contend that it is by far the minority of people. Elitists are fair-weather shoppers. I would say that the majority of people that I have talked to and seen who are vehemently against wm, are part of the middle class, who could definitely use the lower prices, but find that as a principal, they think that it is important to support those in the community around them. Not to say that people who shop at wm don't support their community on purpose, but that they aren't as informed as those who understand the danger of wm and, to a lesser degree but still a factor, other big box stores. I recently read a report put out by The NY Times comparing Walmart and Costco, that pointed out that although costco's prices are higher than walmarts, their profits are about half. Where do you think the difference is?

[Guest Ari 2]

P.S.  Walmart is a social blessing, IMHO.  It offers jobs to unskilled laborers, who are often taking their first job. 

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I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard that Walmart employs children in China.

[USNationalist]

i vote libertarian. This country is not a theocracy, and morality has no place in the law. The law is ment to protect liberty- not shakle people with the moral convictions of others.

[Guest Ari 2]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Nov 15 2005, 12:53 PM

i vote libertarian. This country is not a theocracy, and morality has no place in the law. The law is ment to protect liberty- not shakle people with the moral convictions of others.

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This country is a republic..."and to the republic for which it stands...one nation, under God."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to a political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great pillars of human happiness..." - George Washington, Farewell Address

Society's law is based upon The Ten Commandments, displayed on courtroom walls.

"Men will either be governed by God, or ruled by tyrants." ~ William Penn

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Nov 15 2005, 12:53 PM

i vote libertarian. This country is not a theocracy, and morality has no place in the law. The law is ment to protect liberty- not shakle people with the moral convictions of others.

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I actually dabbled with Libertarianism during a season of my life. Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged proved intriguing. However, I ultimately saw that Objectivism, like Communism, is built upon the flawed assumption that humanity is basically good. Representative democracy, with its separation of powers, and sometimes 'coerced charity,' is also flawed. However, it best takes into account the fallen, sinful condition of the world.

[USNationalist]

prison chaplin- I am aware that humanity is evil at heart.

However, liberty is not an ideal. People should be free to do what they want- so long as what they do does not encroche on the liberty of others. For example- murder is not an issue of morality but liberty- killing an innocent someone is a violation of liberty.

I think drugs should be leagalised, and i think that the punishment for crimes while under the influence should be tripled. PEople should be free to do what they want with their own bodies- and severe concesquences for letting it affect others will go along way to keep it from being a problem.

Morality is something that no one has the right to impose. The only morality that is no relitive is that which is imposed by God- but even then its unchristian to hold non-believers accountable to christian morality.

Example- voteing to ban gay marrige is both unamerican and unchristian. Its a violation of the 5th amendment and goes agaisnt what God wants from christians. He doesn't want us to put a cross on the back of the world- he wants these people to take up their own crosses. Christians should encourage them to do that through ministry- not force them into it with their votes- especialy sence it does them no good and gets them no closer to heaven.

[Guest Ari 2]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Nov 15 2005, 02:51 PM

Example- voteing to ban gay marrige is both unamerican and unchristian. Its a violation of the 5th amendment and goes agaisnt what God wants from christians. He doesn't want us to put a cross on the back of the world- he wants these people to take up their own crosses. Christians should encourage them to do that through ministry- not force them into it with their votes- especialy sence it does them no good and gets them no closer to heaven.

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We live in a Christian nation...recent polls have indicated that 80-90% of Americans are Christians. Homosexuality isn't natural, or healthy, or Christian. The Fifth Amendment has no bearing on homosexuality. God has demonstrated his condemnation of homosexuality in the destruction of Sodom & Gommorah. As Christians, we are taught to "love the sinner and hate the sin".

[prisonchaplain]

Sorry, I can't resist...

I think that you would be surprised to find that although WM does offer jobs to unskilled laborers, this is not the cas for a majority of employees. Also, the low-priced products are priced low at the cost of the companies who sell them to wallyworld, and the underpaid/underbenifited employees. And although elitism may be a factor from some, I would contend that it is by far the minority of people. Elitists are fair-weather shoppers. I would say that the majority of people that I have talked to and seen who are vehemently against wm, are part of the middle class, who could definitely use the lower prices, but find that as a principal, they think that it is important to support those in the community around them. Not to say that people who shop at wm don't support their community on purpose, but that they aren't as informed as those who understand the danger of wm and, to a lesser degree but still a factor, other big box stores. I recently read a report put out by The NY Times comparing Walmart and Costco, that pointed out that although costco's prices are higher than walmarts, their profits are about half. Where do you think the difference is?

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Rather than respond here, buried in the midst of a string that is waning, I've started a new poll. Should Christians patronize Walmart? So, here's the blatant promotional plug (hey, I'm an evangelical...I can't help it!): Visit my new poll, and let's see if the Walmart controversy will stir things up.

BTW: This is a hot issue...it's made Christianity Today, and I've seen it in several newspapers as well.

[USNationalist]

<<We live in a Christian nation...recent polls have indicated that 80-90% of Americans are Christians.>>

-you can put lable on an ancor that says "life boat"- but it doesn't make it one. The notion that so many americans are actualy christians is completley false.

<< Homosexuality isn't natural, or healthy, or Christian.>>

-homosexualiy is normal, thats exactly the problem with it. Resisting natural sinful urges of the flesh- hence the contrast between the flesh and spirit, and their respective fruits.

<<The Fifth Amendment has no bearing on homosexuality.>>

-The pursuit of life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness has everything to do with it

<<God has demonstrated his condemnation of homosexuality in the destruction of Sodom & Gommorah.>>

-the condemnation of homosexual offenders is not in question.

<<As Christians, we are taught to "love the sinner and hate the sin".>>

-Which is why you should attack the sin and not the sinner. As a christian you have no right to pass judgement on an unbeliever, no right as an american or christian to force your own morality onto them.

If you want to get rid of homosexuals you should seek to convert them, not force them into meaningless actions (or lack there of).

[Guest Ari 2]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Nov 15 2005, 06:53 PM

The notion that so many americans are actualy christians is completley false.

homosexualiy is normal, thats exactly the problem with it. Resisting natural sinful urges of the flesh- hence the contrast between the flesh and spirit, and their respective fruits.

The Fifth Amendment has no bearing on homosexuality.>>

The pursuit of life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness has everything to do with it

<<God has demonstrated his condemnation of homosexuality in the destruction of Sodom & Gommorah.>>

-the condemnation of homosexual offenders is not in question.

<<As Christians, we are taught to "love the sinner and hate the sin".>>

-Which is why you should attack the sin and not the sinner. As a christian you have no right to pass judgement on an unbeliever, no right as an american or christian to force your own morality onto them.

If you want to get rid of homosexuals you should seek to convert them, not force them into meaningless actions (or lack there of).

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The poll was publicized on Christian radio...Dennis Praeger quoted the statistics. Another poll from Faith Under Fire quoted statistics in the same percentage range.

Homosexuality is abnormal and a perversion and is detrimental to the family.

The Fifth Amendment is in regard to not perjuring oneself and due process of law, and pertains not to homosexuality.

Why would you misconstrue what I have said to mean that I am attacking homosexuals? These are facts, not sentiments.

The Court's early rulings--we are a Christian nation:

Holy Trinity Church v. United States, 1892

Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 1824, Supreme Court of Massachusetts

The People v. Ruggles, 1811, Supreme Court, State of New York

Commonwealth v. Abner Kneeland, 1838, Supreme Court of Massachusetts

Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 1844, United States Supreme Court

John M'Creery's Lessee v. Allender, 1799, Supreme Court of Maryland

Runkel v. Winemiller, 1799, Supreme Court of Maryland

The Commonwealth v. Sharpless and others, 1815, Supreme Court of Pennsylvania

Davis v. Beason, 1889, United States Supreme Court

Murphy v. Ramsey & Others, 1885, United States Supreme Court

City of Charleston v. S.A. Benjamin, 1846, Supreme Court of South Carolina

The Commonwealth v. Wolf, 1817, Supreme Court of Pennsylvania

United States v. Macintosh, 1931, United States Supreme Court

Zorach v. Clauson, 1952, United States Supreme Court

[DisRuptive1]

How does someone being a homosexual hurt you or your children or your husband? How does homosexuality hurt families?

God has demonstrated his condemnation of homosexuality in the destruction of Sodom & Gommorah.

God destroyed Sodam and Gemmorah due to inhospitality not homosexuality. But let's keep on topic.

[Guest Ari 2]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Nov 15 2005, 07:24 PM

How does someone being a homosexual hurt you or your children or your husband?  How does homosexuality hurt families?

God has demonstrated his condemnation of homosexuality in the destruction of Sodom & Gommorah.

God destroyed Sodam and Gemmorah due to inhospitality not homosexuality. But let's keep on topic.

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You really need to get yourself a dictionary!