Family Proclamation controversy

[FunkyTown]

You are an amazing guy, Vanhin, but he can't. He needs to be honest, forthright and truthful but he also needs to be understanding, compassionate and loving. He needs to respect his wife and discuss this.

Were I him, I would apologize to her. I would apologize and say, "The truth is, I'm just worried. I'm sorry I was so passionate about it. I don't want someone to think we hate him, but I also don't want someone to think we're willing to water down our beliefs for the sake of expediency. Does that make sense?"

I would hang it up and not worry about it. It is truth, and it shouldn't surprise anyone that latter-day saints disagree with things like homosexual sex, same sex "marriage", adultery, fornication, pornography, etc... It doesn't mean we can't be friends. One of my best friends and his wife, were our friends for years before they were actually married, yet they lived together, and they knew how we felt about the law of chastity. Never caused any problems, because what they did was none of our business.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

You are an amazing guy, Vanhin, but he can't. He needs to be honest, forthright and truthful but he also needs to be understanding, compassionate and loving. He needs to respect his wife and discuss this.

Were I him, I would apologize to her. I would apologize and say, "The truth is, I'm just worried. I'm sorry I was so passionate about it. I don't want someone to think we hate him, but I also don't want someone to think we're willing to water down our beliefs for the sake of expediency. Does that make sense?"

Thanks man. That's just what we would do in our house.

My wife and I have an honest relationship with each other. We don't withhold our feelings from each other just to appease the other or avoid confrontation, and she respects my counsel on these kinds of matters. My wife is amazing.

As I see it, this matter is not about hanging home décor, it's about the apparent shame that someone feels about the content of the proclamation. Which I admit, your example monologue acknowledges. My wife would get a little more advice than "yes ma'am" from me in this kind of discussion.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited January 15, 2010 by Vanhin

[Misshalfway]

As I see it, this matter is not about hanging home décor, it's about the apparent shame that someone feels about the content of the proclamation.

Except that we don't know that this wife feels shame about her beliefs. She could feel a miriad of things including promptings from the spirit. Not wanting to strut ones beliefs like a peacock in the city square is NOT evidence of feeling shame about ones beliefs. It shows to me that rather she is trying to be sensitive to a highly sensitive subject -- something this is highly emotional right now. Why wouldn't it be wise to try and de-escalate some of that?

[Vanhin]

Except that we don't know that this wife feels shame about her beliefs. She could feel a miriad of things including promptings from the spirit. Not wanting to strut ones beliefs like a peacock in the city square is NOT evidence of feeling shame about ones beliefs. It shows to me that rather she is trying to be sensitive to a highly sensitive subject -- something this is highly emotional right now. Why wouldn't it be wise to try and de-escalate some of that?

If it is the promptings of the Spirit, her husband will have received it too. I agree with DB37's assessment, and I think she would be wise to consider it above her own fears.

Where we left the issue last night is that we can hang it, but when these people come to our home she will simply take it down for a few hours. This honestly bothers me more than not hanging it at all. I was reading the scriptures last night before bed, and I came across this one:

Matthew 5:15

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

I feel like my darling wife is hiding her candlestick. Should I give in one way or another (hang it and take it down, or simply not hang it at all) or should I stand firm, as the eternal family and the sanctity of the family are the most beautiful part of the Gospel for me. It is what drew me back to the Church, and what ultimately encourages me more than anything else to strive to follow the commandments: I don't want to lose my wife and our future kids.

So for what it's worth, that's what I would go with.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Except that we don't know that this wife feels shame about her beliefs. She could feel a miriad of things including promptings from the spirit. Not wanting to strut ones beliefs like a peacock in the city square is NOT evidence of feeling shame about ones beliefs. It shows to me that rather she is trying to be sensitive to a highly sensitive subject -- something this is highly emotional right now. Why wouldn't it be wise to try and de-escalate some of that?

One more thought.

And why don't we de-escalate all of our beliefs, gays aren't the only ones who have felt offended by or otherwise contrary to our beliefs. Why didn't Joseph Smith simply de-emphasize his visions and revelations, and the Book of Mormon, like the Community of Christ (RLDS) has. It would have made life a lot easier for the Saints, if they had just feared men more than God.

We don't strut our beliefs in the city square, but we strut them proudly in our own homes. That's where I definitely draw the line. So, those who are against us because of our stand on homosexual marriage are welcome to strut their stuff in the city square, and outside our temples, and mock and taunt us, but we shouldn't display our beliefs in our home for fear of offending them? God forbid...

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited January 15, 2010 by Vanhin

[Misshalfway]

If it is the promptings of the Spirit, her husband will have received it too. I agree with DB37's assessment, and I think she would be wise to consider it above her own fears.

I appreciate this but this hasn't always been my experience. Just because one partner feels the spirit one way is no guarantee the other partner will feel the same thing.

Where we left the issue last night is that we can hang it, but when these people come to our home she will simply take it down for a few hours. This honestly bothers me more than not hanging it at all. I was reading the scriptures last night before bed, and I came across this one:

Matthew 5:15

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

I feel like my darling wife is hiding her candlestick. Should I give in one way or another (hang it and take it down, or simply not hang it at all) or should I stand firm, as the eternal family and the sanctity of the family are the most beautiful part of the Gospel for me. It is what drew me back to the Church, and what ultimately encourages me more than anything else to strive to follow the commandments: I don't want to lose my wife and our future kids.

As far as this quote goes, I am bothered by a few things.

First, the husband is looking at things in very black and white terms.

Second, hanging the proclammation is NOT a commandment and SHOULD NOT be used as a measure of someones commitment. This is one of those parts to religious thinking that is so very problematic when people deal with each other. It's why LDS people struggle so much with judging one another.

And why don't we de-escalate all of our beliefs, gays aren't the only ones who have felt offended by or otherwise contrary to our beliefs. Why didn't Joseph Smith simply de-emphasize his visions and revelations, and the Book of Mormon, like the Community of Christ (RLDS) has. It would have made life a lot easier for the Saints, if they had just feared men more than God.

I am not talking about de-escalating our beliefs. I am talking about de-escalating the emotional temperature around the subject. We do our best relating when things our calm. The spirit does not teach best when emotions are running high and people are at their most reactive state.

We don't strut our beliefs in the city square, but we strut them proudly in our own homes. That's where I definitely draw the line. So, those who are against us because of our stand on homosexual marriage are welcome to strut their stuff in the city square, and outside our temples, and mock and taunt us, but we shouldn't display our beliefs in our home for fear of offending them? God forbid...

I absolutely agree. See my first post on this thread. If an atheist came to my home, I wouldn't take down my picture of Christ. etc. etc.

BUT.....this issue here is that there are two folks who share the same home and have differing views about how their faith should be displayed. I am struggling to see that there are any absolute "rights" or "wrongs" here. The test is how the two deal with one another .

Edited January 15, 2010 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

One more thing....... Guilt trips are not of the Spirit.

[Vanhin]

I appreciate this but this hasn't always been my experience. Just because one partner feels the spirit one way is no guarantee the other partner will feel the same thing.

My experience has been completely different. I'm assuming he is living his life right and is entitled to the guidance of the Holy Ghost within his own stewardship, which his home would be. If indeed the Holy Ghost is inspiring her to hide her beliefs so as not to offend her gay friend, I am confident that the Spirit will inspire him as well, since by "divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness". (see The Family: A Proclamation to the World)

As far as this quote goes, I am bothered by a few things.

First, the husband is looking at things in very black and white terms.

So...? Why is that a bad thing? Some things are black and white, and maybe he feels this is one of those things.

Second, hanging the proclammation is NOT a commandment and SHOULD NOT be used as a measure of someones commitment. This is one of those parts to religious thinking that is so very problematic when people deal with each other. It's why LDS people struggle so much with judging one another.

Like I said, this is not about décor. The reasons given for wanting to take it down are at issue. She is afraid her Church's beliefs on family would be offensive to her gay friend, and doesn't want to display that in her own home when he comes to visit.

I am not talking about de-escalating our beliefs. I am talking about de-escalating the emotional temperature around the subject. We do our best relating when things our calm. The spirit does not teach best when emotions are running high and people are at their most reactive state.

Right, I understand that. He needs to be as sensitive with his wife and her friend without compromising his beliefs. It's clear that the Family Proclamation is not at issue here. I am probably safe in assuming that she doesn't want to offend her gay friend by bringing up the topic in any form or fashion, and probably avoids describing her Church's beliefs on marriage completely. Otherwise, why would she care if it was up on her wall to begin with?

I absolutely agree. See my first post on this thread. If an atheist came to my home, I wouldn't take down my picture of Christ. etc. etc.

BUT.....this issue here is that there are two folks who share the same home and have differing views about how their faith should be displayed. I am struggling to see that there are any absolute "rights" or "wrongs" here. The test is how the two deal with one another .

I hope he deals with her with love and righteousness. That is one issue, the other is the question about whether they should worry about offending their gay friend. To that I am saying, we wouldn't worry about it in our house, and I don't think gays would be offended by it anyway.

I was talking to my wife about it, and this is what she said: "I think her gay friend would lose respect for her if he found out while visiting that she was afraid to display a statement about her beliefs in her home because he was there."

Regards,

Vanhin

[Misshalfway]

Let's say you are right and she is simply being avoidant. Is that a black and white, spiritual life or death situation? Is this is situation where the spirituality of opposing partners should be compared to one another?

All I am saying is that this issue is getting blown into something it shouldn't. These issues around gay marriage are difficult. People are leaving our church over them. People are being polarized and labeled in the worst ways and all the political rhetoric trickles down to our dinner parties and study sessions.

Doesn't this woman have a right to be nervous? Is there room in the middle of all this religious piety for someone to struggle with the questions or grapple to find the wisest course without guilt trips and pride filled condemnation?

Ammon entered the kingdom as a servant. Not as a warrior. There is room for different ways to handle sensitive situations that all fall under the umbrella of valiancy in Christ.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Misshalfway

[MorningStar]

My view: It's a proclamation. How do you proclaim something if it's hidden in another room? The bathroom would be the best spot - directly in front of the toilet so people have more than enough time to read it.

I wouldn't expect people of another religion to hide their stuff for me. If I don't like it, I can choose not to go over there. There's also that scripture about not being ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the one that states he who loses his life for Christ will find it.

Your wife probably feels a little scared of being targeted or of unpleasant conversation. If there's hostility, they can just be asked to leave or she can explain the love we have for all of our brothers and sisters.

[MorningStar]

On second thought, I would hang it right next to my "Yes on Prop 8 sign". That way they wouldn't notice the proclamation.

[Vanhin]

Let's say you are right and she is simply being avoidant. Is that a black and white, spiritual life or death situation? Is this is situation where the spirituality of opposing partners should be compared to one another?

Oh my. I'm glad you changed the whole "spiritually superior husband" remark. My point is that if this was a "spiritual" prompting, and they were both living their lives right, then he would have access to the same prompting.

All I am saying is that this issue is getting blown into something it shouldn't. These issues around gay marriage are difficult. People are leaving our church over them. People are being polarized and labeled in the worst ways and all the political rhetoric trickles down to our dinner parties and study sessions.

Doesn't this woman have a right to be nervous? Is there room in the middle of all this religious piety for someone to struggle with the questions or grapple to find the wisest course?

Sure, she can be nervous if this sort of thing makes her nervous, and he should be sensitive to that. However, the only answer in this dispute is not just for the husband to apologize and "let it be" just to avoid confrontation. If he feels strongly about leaving it up, which he appears to feel, then she should have some understanding for his point of view as well. Right?

Regards,

Vanhin

[Misshalfway]

I appreciate Morning's humor and spunk. I always have. But I just wanna say that conversations like this remind me of why sometimes its very hard to be a member of this church. We put so much pressure on each other to act in certain ways or to demonstrate our devotion just like everyone else does. What if this woman doesn't feel comfortable standing for truth by hanging a frame but she is talented at opening her heart to people who are different. Why aren't her strengths allowed to find a path and celebrated just as strongly as Mornings flowered sign next to her toilet? :)

[Vanhin]

No one is trying to put pressure on anyone. We just have different advice for them. You don't have to be that way, that's just what I would do, and why I would do it, since someone is asking.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

On second thought, I would hang it right next to my "Yes on Prop 8 sign". That way they wouldn't notice the proclamation.

That's what I am talking about. It's a flippin proclamation TO THE WORLD!

[pam]

This is my perspective on it.

We are in the last days. We already know that it will become more and more difficult for us (LDS) as there will be more who will attempt to stop our cause. We see that even today. There will be more and more opportunities for us to stand up publically and defend our belief system.

If we can't feel comfortable doing this in our own home without feeling we are offending someone...how could we possibly do this publically when we need to? I feel we try so hard to be tolerant and politically correct that we lose what we are really all about.

[Guest]

I appreciate Morning's humor and spunk. I always have. But I just wanna say that conversations like this remind me of why sometimes its very hard to be a member of this church. We put so much pressure on each other to act in certain ways or to demonstrate our devotion just like everyone else does. What if this woman doesn't feel comfortable standing for truth by hanging a frame but she is talented at opening her heart to people who are different. Why aren't her strengths allowed to find a path and celebrated just as strongly as Mornings flowered sign next to her toilet? :)

Unfortunately Misshalfway, this is a marriage. There are 2 people involved. She can't always just have her way on things if the husband feels strongly in the opposite direction. The answer is not who gets to have their way. And I vehemently disagree with the jokingly-stated-but-always-true advice to men to learn to say, Yes Dear after saying I Do.

[Misshalfway]

Unfortunately Misshalfway, this is a marriage. There are 2 people involved. She can't always just have her way on things if the husband feels strongly in the opposite direction. The answer is not who gets to have their way. And I vehemently disagree with the jokingly-stated-but-always-true advice to men to learn to say, Yes Dear after saying I Do.

When exactly did I say that both partner shouldn't be carefully considered? If that is what you think I am saying you are entirely missing my point.

[Vanhin]

Missahalfway,

Just to be sure I understand your point, are you saying that this may not be so big of an issue that the couple should need to argue about it, and that the husband should just be sensitive to her worries right now, and let this go for the peace of the family, since it will not affect their standing in the Church to take down the proclamation? (That might actually be a run-on sentence)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Guest]

When exactly did I say that both partner shouldn't be carefully considered? If that is what you think I am saying you are entirely missing my point.

You didn't. Except that the post I responded to only stated the wife's side, so I wanted to make sure somebody also champions the husband's side.

But, the answer really is not the wife's or the husband's side. The answer is for both of them to find the PURPOSE for hanging the proclamation in the living room without bringing into consideration a gay friend's comfort. The issue is far deeper than what the wife feels about her classmate's feelings. The issue is the sanctity of the home. And for this - both have to be in agreement. This is not something that is open for compromise - where one just have to give in to end the discussion. This is something that a married couple will have to come to terms with and stick with for the long haul. Because, just doing something for that one gay friend is just putting a band-aid on the situation. The discussion is not going to resolve itself when the gay friend leaves the house.

[Misshalfway]

Vanhin, I appreciate that you are trying to understand what I am saying. And you are close.

Yes I think the husband should be sensitive and unjudgemental. Should he let this go? No. His wishes are just as valid as hers. What bothers me is that we put so much importance on outward expressions of inner devotions and if we don't have the "right" display then we must not have the devotion. This is when the forest gets missed for the trees and all the jots and tittles placed more important than the people we profess to love.

[Vanhin]

Vanhin, I appreciate that you are trying to understand what I am saying. And you are close.

Yes I think the husband should be sensitive and unjudgemental. Should he let this go? No. His wishes are just as valid as hers. What bothers me is that we put so much importance on outward expressions of inner devotions and if we don't have the "right" display then we must not have the devotion. This is when the forest gets missed for the trees and all the jots and tittles placed more important than the people we profess to love.

If the fate of this outward expression didn't implicate such a strong inward dilemma, from the husband's perspective, I would agree with you. But he seems to be saying, this is our home, we want people to see what matters to us, not hide it because it would offend them.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Misshalfway]

This is my perspective on it.

We are in the last days. We already know that it will become more and more difficult for us (LDS) as there will be more who will attempt to stop our cause. We see that even today. There will be more and more opportunities for us to stand up publically and defend our belief system.

If we can't feel comfortable doing this in our own home without feeling we are offending someone...how could we possibly do this publically when we need to? I feel we try so hard to be tolerant and politically correct that we lose what we are really all about.

This is so very true and I thank you for sharing this.

I'm just not convinced that this wife's reluctance means she isn't being valiant. It just might mean she wants to express her defense in different ways or maybe wants to be allowed the space to explore all the ways she might do this.

[Misshalfway]

If the fate of this outward expression didn't implicate such a strong inward dilemma, from the husband's perspective, I would agree with you. But he seems to be saying, this is our home, we want people to see what matters to us, not hide it because it would offend them.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

Regards,

Vanhin

I appreciate that. Thanks for highlighting it. I hope this couple can see that they have lots of ways of looking at their feelings and many options that could be good for all involved.

[pam]

I guess I don't understand how taking down something off your wall because you are afraid it will offend someone is expressing any kind of defense for something you feel is important.

I understand the need to try not to offend. But in the process of trying not to offend someone coming into your home..you are offending the ONE person who has made everything possible. To me it's like saying "Heavenly Father I truly believe and appreciate the family and its structure etc etc...but..... That's just the way I see it.

Edited January 15, 2010 by pam