TAPriceCTR Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) I know this is going to be much hated and may even be sencored but... I honestly suspect that this is a puritan tredition which has remained within the church. not every word spoken from the mouth of a prophet is inspired and to think otherwise is to agree with the antis who try proving the church wrong with "unfulfilled prophesies" my doubts on this topic do not mean I do not believe the church is true, god nearly killed both joseph smith and moses so clearly even prophets are still humans capable of mistakes, . I am not intending to persuade anyone to agree with me on this, but presenting the unrepresented side. if masturbation is so severe then why is it nowhere in the standard works? we have literally thousands of pages of scripture some of which goes so specific as to prohibit blended fiber fabric... and none of it deals with masturbation, not in the NT or OT, not in the BOM, it is not in the PoGP and it is not even contained within the D&C. virtually all the ethos on the topic is derrived from a talk given by boyd k packer in 1976. a talk which is based on a wholey inaccurate analogy (the clear flaws and the fact that that talk is not available on LDS.org are further evidence that this talk was spoken from his mind instead of inspiration) but people are afraid to question it because they forget that the Alma 32 instructs us to "experiment upon the word" and that there is no point to experimentation if you do not pay attention to the results. the word of wisdom is a modern commitment but there are even hints of it in the OT. and science has toggled back and forth somewhat agreeing other ways for times disagreeing but the fact is that science has supported the WOW in many ways... there have been thuorogh scientific studies which have confirmed any alleged debtriments of masturbation and there have been many which have shown that a long term lack of ejaculation is debtrimental. choose for yourself what you believe on this but know that the prohibition on masturbation is not supported by scripture, the most cited authority on the topic is one of the most inacurate analogies and is unavaiable on LDS.org, and science has only refuted it. (to anyone who thinks science should not be sited on this site, you need to study the doctrine a little more, "all truth belongs to the church, if there is truth in hell it belongs to the church" science is imperfect, but it does frequently find truth.) Edited November 7, 2011 by TAPriceCTR new information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEthePrimate Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) TAPriceCTR, FWIW, I agree with you--people make too much of an issue of masturbation. A friend of mine who happens to be a therapist at BYU told me that lot of people come for counseling out of feelings of guilt for masturbating. He told me that 95% of Mormon men masturbate, and the other 5% lie! Also, more women masturbate than one might expect. Basically, my friend counsels people to not panic about it. If they want to reduce how much they masturbate, he's happy to help them, of course. But extreme feelings of guilt and shame can actually be counterproductive and make it harder for them to reduce masturbation. It's a vicious cycle: you feel bad about masturbating, try to refrain for a while, but still feel bad, and masturbate to relieve the tension. So he also teaches people other coping mechanisms, so they have alternatives. But you're right--as far as I know, there's no actual commandment against it. The Law of Chastity is, simply put, to not have sex with people you're not married to. IMHO, that doesn't prohibit masturbation. Some people would disagree and say that masturbation is sex with yourself, and you're not married to yourself, and so it's wrong. I say that's just silly. Other people, like Spencer W. Kimball, have claimed that masturbation leads to homosexuality. That's even more silly! If that were true, the vast majority of men on the planet would be gay, and the human species would die out! Edited November 7, 2011 by HEthePrimate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) I get so tired of people, including those that claim to be LDS, that come to this site spouting the nonsense that masturbation is not a sin. That because the scriptures don't mention the word masturbation that it's not a sin. I get tired of people who make derogatory remarks about former leaders and the counsel they have given us over the years regarding this. No the scriptures don't use the word masturbation. The scriptures also don't use the word pornography though they use a form of it. What the scriptures do teach us is about becoming slaves to the flesh. What is masturbation? Becoming a slave to the flesh. People can follow the ways of the world and justify all they want. The world teaches that it's not harmful. What's amazing is the number of people that come to this site and say, "Don't go to your Bishop...it's not that serious of a sin." Yet that is not what we, as LDS, are taught and counseled. Wheat and tares? Yep, that's exactly what we are seeing. Even here on lds.net. People here can debate all they want. We have yet to see a general authority, prophet or member of the first presidency come out and say that it's just a small sin, it's healthy, it's normal, it's okay. Nor do I think we ever will. Edited November 8, 2011 by pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAPriceCTR Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 yes, I claim to be LDS. and I do not spout nonsense nor did I say anything derogatory about any leaders unless you will declare that the leaders of the church are perfect individuals who are incapable of speaking from their own minds... and if you are making that claim you are not paying attention, never have the church leaders claimed infalability. we instruct investigators to study and pray, the BOM says to experiment on the word. the church endorses education which inticates they believe in promoting our individual intelligence rather than supressing our intelligence as though it is evil. you consider masturbation being a slave to the flesh, I do not. I see it as a tool to compensate for the fact that we are no longer getting married between ages 12-14. if satisfying a hunger which is not required for survival is "becomming a slave to the flesh" then you should never eat chocolate, or candy. just like masturbation you could go your entire life without ever partaking of refined sugar but humans crave it. the church leadership has made statments in the past which were untrue, Brigham Young said the church would never abandon polygamy, does this mean he was not a prophet or great man? NO it means he was a human and was in this case wrong... and those who disagreed with him were not unfaithful for thinking he was wrong any more than anyone who accepts his being wrong with hindsight is unfaithful. there is a big difference between the philosophies of men and provable facts. as Henry B Eyring said "Believe everything scholars can strictly prove and suit yourself about the rest." and frankly the prohibition on masturbation does not ring true. science has shown that that degree of abstinence nearly tripples the likelihood of prostate cancer... and do you really beleive that feeling like he has been kicked in the groin is how god rewards the righteous? look at our statments and ask yourself which one is more inline with Moroni's promise? yours where you make false accusations of insulting church leadership and simply say "authority is everything"... or mine where I say to study it out and decide for yourself. I suppose I should have added pray to it, but you did not bring up prayer either... I have not said you can not beleive it is a sin, but someone had to have the integrity and strength to voice the opposing and unpopular argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) you consider masturbation being a slave to the flesh, I do not. I see it as a tool to compensate for the fact that we are no longer getting married between ages 12-14. if satisfying a hunger which is not required for survival is "becomming a slave to the flesh" then you should never eat chocolate, or candy. just like masturbation you could go your entire life without ever partaking of refined sugar but humans crave it. Oh I'm so glad you brought this up. I've seen the argument that many consider masturbation much like eating food though you used chocolate and candy. Many will say it's a need much like food is a need. Even with food we need to learn to curb our appetites or we become a slave to it. I love chocolate but I also know that due to a medical condition the adverse effects that eating chocolate has on me. So I have had to learn to curb my desires for chocolate a lot. Eating is a necessity to live or we die. Sex or any form of it is not.If you felt I was pointing you out regarding the making of derogatory remarks about church leaders..I never mentioned a name. If I wanted to point you out specifically I would have. Edited November 8, 2011 by pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) I want you to show me ONE statement by a general authority that says masturbation is okay. Also out of curiosity..are you a NOM? Edited November 8, 2011 by pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAPriceCTR Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I am not the some people who bring up food in general, I brought up sweets. sweets are in no way shape or form essential for life or good for you, in the absolute BEST case scenerio they are neutral. as such if the mere fact that one does not have to satiate a hunger makes doing such "becomming a slave to the flesh" then anyone who eats sweets even in moderation is a slave to the flesh. nice attempt to lie without lieing... you imply that you were not speaking of me when you spoke of making derogatory comments but you do not actually say it. so if the statment that triggered that accusation was not mine then which statment in this thread did trigger it? when did I say there had ever been a statment by church leaders to say masturbation is ok? I said I think this is a puritan tredition which has remained since the days when parents told their children it would make them go blind. saying that we can only listen to and must 100% agree with the words of church leadership is to say the anti's are right when they claim mormons follow with blind obedience, this is in opposition to the words of Joseph F Smith "Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly." Joseph Smith believe the unbiblical tredition that polygamy is wrong even beyond the day when he was commanded to do it, with the BOM actually speaking against polygamy do you believe the church would have ever learned the that polygamy is not evil had the need to impliment it not risen? again, I did not say church leaders have ever said it is ok. I have said that the degree of abstinence which is asked for is garaunteed to inflict excruciating pain and has been shown in scientific studies to tripple the likelihood of prostate cancer, hardly just rewards for righteousness. I personaly know a woman who lost her husband to prostate cancer at age 25. I said study it out. look at the words of doctors, GAs, scripture. I have said experiment upon the word as directed in alma 32... and decide for yourself what it is that you beleive. and I have said to remember that the GAs making a human mistake does not mean the church is untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Oh, the "Justify Our Sins" game! I like this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I'm always amused at how quickly "free-thinking" Mormons who pride themselves on their nuanced doctrinal understanding, revert back into the "God-only-gives-us-commandments-because-they-bring-immediate-blessings-in-the-here-and-now" (aka "Deus ex Santa Claus") line of argument whenever the Church asks them to give up something they'd rather keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 And we're done here. A reading of the site rules would be helpful to posters especially since they agreed to them when they signed up for this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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