Trinity

[Guest]

anatess, you really don't see the similarity in the 3 (body, soul, spirit - Father, Son, HS) and man and God respectively? If you don't, then I can't explain it any further.

M.

No, I don't see it. Not even through my years of Trinitarian study in Catholic school. I don't know of any other trinitarian who does besides you, to tell you the truth. I've never heard body, soul, and spirit equated to the trinity in that manner, ever.

The thing about it is - your explanation makes it all the more misleading. Because, it is completely not it. It is not the same relationship as body, soul, spirit. Because, Jesus is not body, nor God the Father is not soul, and neither is the Holy Ghost spirit in the same sense that man has all 3. Completely, absolutely, irrevocably not the case even if you go and ask a seasoned theologian about it.

Your explanation is what confuses non-trinitarians because it is exactly what leads them to the conclusion that Trinitarians believe Jesus is praying to himself when he is praying to the Father.

Because, when your body is communing to your spirit... she is essentially talking to herself.

And that is why I pursued this discussion even if it should just be laid to rest. Because I don't like it when my fellow LDS members say that Trinitarians believe "God the Father spoke to himself when His voice came down from heaven at the baptism of His son". Of course that's just plain silly. But they will find basis for this kind of thinking when you give them that body/spirit/soul thing for an explanation!

[Faded]

anatess, you really don't see the similarity in the 3 (body, soul, spirit - Father, Son, HS) and man and God respectively? If you don't, then I can't explain it any further.

M.

Okay, so if God (the Father) is a spirit, the Holy Spirit is a spirit, and only Jesus Christ has a body but also has a spirit and soul then it adds up to:

Spirit + Spirit + Body + Soul + Spirit.

It would make the correlation you're trying to establish here fall apart. I understand that you're trying to make "made in His image" make any kind of sense. While I do applaud your attempt at helping us understand, I think this one either needs better clarification or a separate thread altogether. As it stands, I think it adds more confusion to the matter than clarity.

[Maureen]

anatess, I think you're making this more complicated than it really is. Here's an article that might explain it better.

Man A Trinity (Spirit, Soul, Body) | Bible.org; NET Bible, Bible Study

M.

[Maureen]

...Because, Jesus is not body, nor God the Father is not soul, and neither is the Holy Ghost spirit in the same sense that man has all...

I am not saying that there is a direct correlation between man's body, soul and spirit and Father, Son and HS. I'm only saying that man can also be considered "three" as God is also "three". A very basic similarity.

sim·i·lar - adj. - Related in appearance or nature; alike though not identical.

M.

[Vanhin]

Maureen,

Some LDS believe that we are an entity called intelligence, who is clothed in both spirit and physical element. So, in a way they are describing a triple being (intelligence, spirit, body).

But I don't believe that. I believe our intelligence is our spirit, and our spirit is immortal, and that we come to earth to gain bodies of flesh. We are dual beings. Though the word soul is sometimes used synonymously with "spirit" in the scriptures, LDS believe that a spirit joined with a physical body make up a living soul.

And the spirit and the body are the soul of man. (D&C 88:15)

At our core, we are spirit, and in order for us to experience the fullness of joy, we must obtain bodies of flesh.

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; (D&C 93:33)

So, that might be another reason why we cannot see the analogy. The other reason is the fact that in Mormonism, God the Father is an individual person, who is a Spirit clothed in an immortal body of flesh and bone, and so is God the Son (after his resurrection). The Holy Ghost, is also a human Spirit, as individual as you and I, yet He is in complete harmony with the will of the Father and the Son in his purpose and love for us. He is a God, but he does not have a body (yet).

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. (D&C 130:22)

So, the part about your analogy that fails, for me anyway, is that each component of our soul must be sentient in order for the analogy to work. And that is simply not the case. Our physical bodies are lifeless and quite inanimate without our spirits at the helm. it is a vessel. So, our bodies cannot be considered persons by themselves. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, are each individual sentient beings - persons, if you will.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Guest]

anatess, I think you're making this more complicated than it really is. Here's an article that might explain it better.

Man A Trinity (Spirit, Soul, Body) | Bible.org; NET Bible, Bible Study

M.

I understood you quite well. Even without the link. And I'm not making it more complicated than what you are saying, or the link is saying... But even with the link, it still doesn't make it sound right even as a Trinitarian.

Hey, PC - what's your take on this one?

[prisonchaplain]

Okay, so God the Father has no body according to Trinitarians. If there are no votes to the contrary ...? I do want to have the clearest understanding possible of course.

That is correct. There are no Trinitarians that I know of who believe that the Father has a physical body.

[prisonchaplain]

Hey, PC - what's your take on this one?

I understand that there is some deep theological debate about whether human nature is tripartite or bipartite. One of the advantages of the first is that it does lend itself to being a trinitarian analogy. No analogies are perfect, but what the analogy shows is that the just as body, soul and spirit all work independently in once sense, yet in unity as a human being, so the Father, Son and Holy Spirit each have their sovereign existence and volition, and yet they are one essence, absolutely one God. It does not have to show any more than that.

[Guest]

I understand that there is some deep theological debate about whether human nature is tripartite or bipartite. One of the advantages of the first is that it does lend itself to being a trinitarian analogy. No analogies are perfect, but what the analogy shows is that the just as body, soul and spirit all work independently in once sense, yet in unity as a human being, so the Father, Son and Holy Spirit each have their sovereign existence and volition, and yet they are one essence, absolutely one God. It does not have to show any more than that.

So, the only analogy is the words three and one. Having this much exposure with LDS thus far, though PC, do you see how this analogy to the Trinity makes it more confusing for non-trinitarians, even more so than steam, water, ice? The confusion stems from me as a person has some meaning to me that is not present with the chemical composition H2O?

[prisonchaplain]

The effort is to show anything that contains three substances that have meaning individually, but in composite, have another meaning.

Eggs are complete when they are shell, white and yoke. You can cook with egg whites, as heart-healthy folk know. Yokes are used in French vanilla ice cream. And, of course, the shells are all sent to McDonald's as a prime ingredient in their breakfast entrees. :-)

Water: Water, Ice and Mist can appear simultaneously. Each is different, yet they are all H2O.

Human Beings: Spirit, Soul and Body can each be said to be distinct with meaning. How often do old people decry their 20-year old Spirits, with mature souls, stuck in an 80-year-old decaying body?

I suppose you can debate the distance these analogies can travel, but they are simply meant to show how three separate matters can each have their own purpose, while being combined to be something more.

[Maureen]

...The Holy Ghost, is also a human Spirit, as individual as you and I, yet He is in complete harmony with the will of the Father and the Son in his purpose and love for us. He is a God, but he does not have a body (yet).

Vanhin,

This one is new to me. LDS believe that the Holy Ghost (Spirit) is a human Spirit? Why? If the HG is God, wouldn't he have a divine Spirit?

So, the part about your analogy that fails, for me anyway, is that each component of our soul must be sentient in order for the analogy to work. And that is simply not the case. Our physical bodies are lifeless and quite inanimate without our spirits at the helm. it is a vessel. So, our bodies cannot be considered persons by themselves. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, are each individual sentient beings - persons, if you will.

So when you say "each component of our soul" you mean body and spirit, correct? Sentient? I don't understand why you see it that way. I am not saying that man's body, soul and spirit represent the 3 persons of the Trinity. I am saying that God knew that he was a tri-unity, and he wished to create man in his image, so man was also created as a tri-unity. That is all, nothing strangely metaphysical, just similar in the 3 in 1 sense. If you believe man can be a dual being, is it that much harder to see man as a tripartite being?

M.

[Faded]

Vanhin,

This one is new to me. LDS believe that the Holy Ghost (Spirit) is a human Spirit? Why? If the HG is God, wouldn't he have a divine Spirit?

In the LDS viewpoint, there is no distinction between "human spirit" and "divine spirit" because both are the same type of spirit. The only real difference in our viewpoint is that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are perfected, Omnipotent, Omniscient, etc. Much like the pre-mortal Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost has progressed to Godhood prior to having had a mortal life. It is expected that the Holy Spirit will one day gain a physical body just as Christ did.

It's much like angels, these are things that other religions categorize as separate from humanity that we do not. The way we view it, God, angels and mankind are all of the same species, but on different levels of progression.

As far as God intending to create man to be three in one, just as he is, it is an interesting way to make the Trinity work with "made in our image" but it's certainly not explained as such anywhere in the scriptures. It does represent a very creative approach to essentially make sense out of "made in the image of God" while retaining God as being in no way similar to man.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Faded

[Guest]

Note that in Catholic faith (don't know about other Christian sects) - angels are a different species altogether - neither God nor human. They're usually represented with wings. My Catholic teaching maintains they, physically, do not have wings (they don' thave bodies, so how can they have wings?), but that wings are symbolic of their pure spirit nature. They can intercede on our behalf in our communication with God.

LDS makes more sense if you look at it in the pattern of life. I named all my children after names of angels.

Edited February 9, 2010 by anatess

[Jason_J]

It's a good point to clarify if I'm ever going to have any hope of understanding the Trinity.

Okay, so God the Father has no body according to Trinitarians. If there are no votes to the contrary ...? I do want to have the clearest understanding possible of course.

As others have said, the Father in Trinitarianism does not have a body. A corporeal Father is one of the distinctive doctrines of the LDS Godhead.

[Vanhin]

Vanhin,

This one is new to me. LDS believe that the Holy Ghost (Spirit) is a human Spirit? Why? If the HG is God, wouldn't he have a divine Spirit?

Faded already pointed this out, but in Mormonism, God is an Exalted Man. One of Heavenly Father's many names is "Man of Holiness", and his Son is "The Son of Man" (see the following Moses 6:57). The Holy Ghost is also a Man, or an pre-embodied Spirit of a Man. They are three actual persons, who are Holy and in perfect harmony with the will of the Father, who is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe.

The Holy Ghost is not an immaterial power or force. Perhaps his influence can be described as such, but He himself exists and takes up space. The same is true of all the spirits of mankind. Check out the following:

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131:7-8)

To further illustrate what I mean, I offer the following account from the Book of Mormon. Shortly after the tower of Babel, when the Lord confounded the languages, Jesus Christ appeared to a prophet called "the brother of Jared". This was obviously before Christ's earthly ministry, so Jesus did not yet have a resurrected body of flesh and bone. It is quite interesting and can help you understand our beliefs better.

In this account, the brother of Jared brought some white stones and asked God to touch them, so that they would give off light in the vessels they had build to traverse the ocean. Here's what happened:

6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. (Ether 3:6-16)

From this occurrence we learn so much. One thing in particular we learn, is that we truly were created in the image and likeness of God, and if you could see our spirits, you would see that our physical bodies look like our spirits. In other words, it has hands, feet, arms, legs, torso, and a head.

At our core, mankind is spirit, and right now, you and I, are spirits clothed in flesh. Heavenly Father, is a Holy Man, who has an exalted glorified body inseparably united with his Spirit, and the Son also. The Holy Spirit is a indeed a Holy Man, who does not yet have an exalted physical body.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Faded]

As others have said, the Father in Trinitarianism does not have a body. A corporeal Father is one of the distinctive doctrines of the LDS Godhead.

I suppose that Trinitarians came to this conclusion based on the fact that no mention of God the Father's body occurs in the Bible. It is interesting to note.

So what would God the Father look like (in the Trinitarian view) if we could see him right now? Would he resemble a man? Or would he look like something else? Or would he have no form at all?

Maureen mentioned that he would be a "divine spirit". What is that like?

[Jason_J]

I suppose that Trinitarians came to this conclusion based on the fact that no mention of God the Father's body occurs in the Bible. It is interesting to note.

Perhaps...or one could posit that the influence of Greek thought helped cause this conclusion. But again, it's also a matter of Biblical interpretation, since I think that it's clear that the Bible does mention that God has some "bodily features". The question is, what to make of these anthropomorphisms.

So what would God the Father look like (in the Trinitarian view) if we could see him right now? Would he resemble a man? Or would he look like something else? Or would he have no form at all?

This is a question that I have long struggled with. PC can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't believe that Trinitarians believe that the Father "looks" like anything, since that implies a material aspect that is denied. I think that most Trinitarians would conclude that the Father has no form since He is incorporeal. I also believe that the Father lacking form adds to the trait of omnipresence in Trinitarianism.

Maureen mentioned that he would be a "divine spirit". What is that like?

The Father is a spirit, and therefore has no form (this is from the Trinitarian perspective, since LDS have a different view on whether spirits have form). The Father does not look like anything, since spirit is not composed of matter. One thing I always thought was that, while the Father may not look like anything or have form, that does not preclude Him from taking on form when dealing with humans.

I'm currently reading one LDS author's view of this matter, in the book "How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God" by Richard Hopkins. It's a little polemical (it's definitely written for a LDS audience), however it does a good job of looking at different Greek philosophies, how they are similar to (and different from) the traditional concept of God, what the Bible says, the LDS concepts (and how they are more Biblical and ancient), the various Christian heresies, the Hellenization of Judaism and Christianity, how the traditional God concept adds ideas not found in the Bible but found in Greek philosophy, etc. Perhaps you would be interested in that as well.

Google Books Preview: How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the ... - Google Books

Edited February 10, 2010 by Jason_J

[WillowTheWhisp]

If God the Father has no form, and Jesus was yet to be born, how come human beings have a body when God said "Let us make man in our image." ?

[Jason_J]

If God the Father has no form, and Jesus was yet to be born, how come human beings have a body when God said "Let us make man in our image." ?

I believe this was answered above. Trinitarians do not interpret that verse to mean a physical image. Instead, we are in God's image by having wisdom, love, knowledge, etc.

[WillowTheWhisp]

That then is a far bigger difference between us than the terms 'Godhead' and 'Trinity'.

[Jason_J]

That then is a far bigger difference between us than the terms 'Godhead' and 'Trinity'.

Well yes, it was already mentioned in this thread that Trinitarians do not believe that the Father is corporeal (has a body), and therefore they would interpret that verse in Genesis differently than LDS who do believe in a corporeal Father.

[Faded]

Coming from an LDS perspective, it certainly becomes very difficult to conceive of a completely immaterial divine spirit as Our Father in Heaven. The whole idea makes Him seem a lot less personal and a lot more distant. I find that notion very strange. I suppose that isn't any different from Trinitarians finding our belief of a corporeal God the Father who is flesh and bone to be strange. But the biggest trouble: In wrapping my mind around the Trinity version of God the Father, it feels like losing a real parent and trading them in for a formless cosmic mass of some kind.

But I suppose that Trinitarians don't actually believe in the notion that we are literally children of God. Considering how many times the scriptures call us God's children, are we to assume that Trinitarians consider those statements to be metaphorical?

[prisonchaplain]

We are God's children because He created us, not because he literally birthed us.

[AnthonyB]

Faded,

From a trinitatrian point of view seperating the persons into differing beings means that it was a lesser God who atoned for us. It was no longer God himself dieing for us but a lesser, stand in, proxy, second but not God himself. It was the 2IC not the CEO.

Much of the contortions of trinitarian thought is the attempt to maintain the full divinity of Jesus, to ensure that the atonement was an act fully born by God himself. Whilst also maintaining the distinction in the persons, that God didn't abandon the rule of the universe during the incarnation.

You feel the distancing of the Father, I feel the lessening of the glory of Christ and the loss of geniune atonement.

PC,

Not disagreeing with your posts but maybe....

Genesis also has God imparting his own breath into man and only man is recorded as having that, neither beasts not angels are recorded as having had the breath of God imparted. Man was brought alive by the direct imparting of the spirit of God. God birthed humanity (birth is in some sense taking breath) by breathing life into Adam, making a body he had crafted a "living soul" by the impartation of his spirit/breath.

Edited February 11, 2010 by AnthonyB
cutting excess words

[Hemidakota]

Hi sorry to bother you all with such a basic question.

The trinity, here also called the Godhead, is apparently a hotly contested doctrinal difference between LDS and non-LDS. could someone explain to me in simple terms what the differences in understanding / doctrine are?

Thanks!

If one's spiritual eyes were open and could view the throne of GOD, you will find in the middle, GOD the FATHER, to his right, HIS beloved Son, Jesus the Christ, and on the other side, is the Holy Ghost, whom is a male without a resurrected body. All three of which, have the same purpose and in unity, to bring salvation onto man [woman] kind.