My View Of Evangelicals

[Snow]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 5 2005, 07:09 PM

Snow:  Just so you and I (and anyone else) have a clear understanding of where I stand.  I personally believe that coming unto Christ has much more to do with loving your neighbor than it does espousing a doctrine or religion.  (Or even getting yourself saved).  I do not believe it is about self.

The Traveler

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... and I think that's the whole crux of the matter. If you want to be esteemed, do esteemable acts. If you want to be Christlike, act like Christ and do as he commanded.

You can't earn your salvation by works but you cannot seperate obedience (as you defined it - forgiving others and serving them) from your acceptance of Christ.

[prisonchaplain]

Snow says: Well now it looks like we are getting somewhere. So, after accepting Christ and becoming "saved," we are then required to obey the commandments, at least in some measure, in order to maintain our salvation. Right?

The short answer is: right.

The longer answer is: Jesus says that if you love him you will keep his commands. He says we must love one another for love is of God and anyone that does not love does not know God (i.e. is not saved). Several of the seven churches in Asia minor are warned that if they do not return to their first love, do not reject the false teachings of the Nicolaitan, do not abandon spiritual pride and lukewarmness, etc. that "their candles would be removed." Jesus parable of the seed and the sower, suggests that some seed (gospel) would result in immediate conversion, but the convert would, after a seemingly rapid spurt of growth, whither and die. Other seed would seem to grow, but then would be choked by the concerns of this world. I'll even cite a line from a popular contemporary Christian song: What about the change...what about the difference? (this query, after the new converts speaks of getting the fish symbols and Jesus bumperstickers). So, the longer answer is also yes--Jesus is coming back for a glorious bride, not a blemished one.

Forgiveness is available to the believer. However, we are indeed called to life in the Spirit.

[prisonchaplain]

Snows says: Man! It's hard to get a clear answer from you. You are less explicit than even the Bible.

Hey...I'm neither a prophet, nor will my writings ever be canonized.

So when you correctly acknowledge the giver of the gift - are you required to affirm certain things about Him - for example homoousis, cosubstantiality, indivisibility and ungeneration? Or are you required to disaffirm certain thing about the giver, like not believe that He was the brother of Satan?

In other words, how wrong can you be about who God and Jesus are, and still be saved? At what point do one's beliefs about God become so wrong, that we could say, "You're not approaching the giver of the gift." I'm going to punt at this point, and defer my answer until I've completed the "How Wide the Divide Book."

Concerning the gift: If God says it is offered to whoever believes in his Son, and that no one else can have it. But, you turn around and say: Almost everyone can have the gift. However, God has an even better gift for those who will join our church, submit to our rituals, and obey our spiritual regimen. If evangelicals are right about this, then at bare minimum, God would rightly be miffed.

Snow asks: What about if you lived in the jungle hundreds of years ago and had only heard tidbits about the giver of the gift and didn't know enough to believe and understand correct doctrine or not but accepted him as your Savior anyway?

Some evangelicals will tell you that they were lost. They did not know Jesus, and Jesus is the only way. Others have suggested that they will be judged by how they responded to what little they knew. Romans 1 speaks to creation itself being a testimony of God. When we are encouraging our people to support missions we tell them that we are safer to assume that those who do not hear may be without hope, and so we had better get the word to them! However, my bottom-line answer is that I'm not sure. I know that God is good. God is just. On the Day of Judgment, when we see who is redeemed and who is doomed, there will be no second-guessing, and no hesitation. All will declare that God was good and merciful and just.

[Ray]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Dec 6 2005, 01:06 AM

I know that God is good.  God is just.  On the Day of Judgment, when we see who is redeemed and who is doomed, there will be no second-guessing, and no hesitation.  All will declare that God was good and merciful and just.

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So on the Day of Judgment, if you were to see all the faithful LDS judged as being faithful to the knowledge we were given of God, you wouldn’t be miffed?

Heh, I think I can safely predict that as a “No” and say “Thank you”.

As a counter point, I will say that if I were to see you and other Christians judged as being faithful to the knowledge you were given of God, I wouldn’t be miffed either.

But I’m pretty sure that some of us will end up with more knowledge of God than others of us, because from among all the knowledge of God we are all trying to share with each other, some of us believe some things that some others of us do not believe, so it only stands to reason that only those who accept all the knowledge of God that He gives us will be rewarded for accepting the truth that some others have rejected.

For instance, Joseph Smith was either a prophet of God or he wasn’t, and if he was, then we all should accept his knowledge of God, because if we do not accept the knowledge of God that God gave to us through Joseph, then we will have essentially cut ourselves off from the benefits of the knowledge we would have gained by accepting that knowledge of God.

And btw, I am among those who will now tell you that I believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and I believe I will be rewarded for accepting the knowledge of God that gave to us through him, so if you want to get in on the benefits that will come from accepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God, you should go ahead and do that ASAP, otherwise you will only lag behind those who know and will continue to know more.

[prisonchaplain]

Rays asks:  So on the Day of Judgment, if you were to see all the faithful LDS judged as being faithful to the knowledge we were given of God, you wouldn’t be miffed?  Heh, I think I can safely predict that as a “No” and say “Thank you”.

It is said that the two greatest surprises on Judgment Day are who gets into heaven and who doesn't.

As a counter point, I will say that if I were to see you and other Christians judged as being faithful to the knowledge you were given of God, I wouldn’t be miffed either.

I trust you will be unmiffed even if it turns out the Celestial Kingdom (exaltation) is the only heavenly realm, and you're stuck for all eternity with us.

But I’m pretty sure that some of us will end up with more knowledge of God than others of us, because from among all the knowledge of God we are all trying to share with each other, some of us believe some things that some others of us do not believe, so it only stands to reason that only those who accept all the knowledge of God that He gives us will be rewarded for accepting the truth that some others have rejected.  For instance, Joseph Smith was either a prophet of God or he wasn’t, and if he was, then we all should accept his knowledge of God, because if we do not accept the knowledge of God that God gave to us through Joseph, then we will have essentially cut ourselves off from the benefits of the knowledge we would have gained by accepting that knowledge of God.

If Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, then, as things stand now, you'll be in the Celestial Kingdom, and I'll be in the Terrestial one. If he was not a prophet, but you're still in heaven, then, I don't know--maybe I'll have extra stars in my crown? Maybe I will have accomplished more because the faith I taught was not hampered by misunderstanding?

I am certain of this: lovers of God want the fullest and most accurate understanding of him possible. We want to know whom we love. And, my guess is that all believers in God would say, "Amen!" to that.

[Ray]

prisonchaplain,

I recommend that you think and ponder more about “heaven” while realizing that our Lord himself said there are many “mansions” there.

And along with your own pondering, I also recommend that you read about the inspiration Joseph Smith had (or claimed to have) as he pondered upon this subject, which he later wrote down in what is now known as Doctrine & Covenants section 76

And btw, it helped me to read the preface too, which is as follows:

A vision given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, February 16, 1832. HC 1: 245—252. Prefacing his record of this vision the Prophet wrote: “Upon my return from Amherst conference, I resumed the translation of the Scriptures. From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled. It appeared self-evident from what truths were left, that if God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body, the term ‘Heaven,’ as intended for the Saints’ eternal home, must include more kingdoms than one.

Accordingly, while translating St. John’s Gospel, myself and Elder Rigdon saw the following vision.” It was after the Prophet had translated John 5:29  that this vision was given: