Heavenly Mother and Scripture

[Jason_J]

Where did the belief in the existence of Heavenly Mother come from? From what I am aware of, she is not mentioned in any of the Standard Works. Now, on other forums, I have come across people that are "Standard Works Only LDS", who believe that official doctrines are only found in the Standard Works. If this is a valid viewpoint, how do they reconcile belief in Heavenly Mother?

Is there a revelation on her (since from what I gather, all LDS doctrines are believed to arise from revelations, in contrast to speculations of human origin, right?)?

Thanks!

[Guest mysticmorini]

I believe the doctrine came from some of the discourses of Brigham young. also there is some evidence in the declaration on the family with the mention of "heavenly parent's" plural.

[bytebear]

Well, the reason it isn't "official doctrine" is simply because we don't have a lot of information on the subject and there is no new revelations about her in the standard works, but rather, interpretation on existing scripture. In other words, there is no smoking gun scripture, like there is on the tangible body of the Father, for example.

There are only three "official" sources currently that I know of (although there are many statements from past leaders).

1.Genesis 1: 27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." In other words, God's image, which we believe to be a literal physical image contains both a male and female personage.

2. LDS Church Hymn "O My Father" which has the words:

In the heavens are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare!

Truth is reason, truth eternal Tells me I've a mother there.

3. The phrase "Heavenly Parents" being used in the official church manuals as well as leadership talks.

Edited February 12, 2010 by bytebear

[Justice]

There are more... sometimes they're just hard to see.

[Jason_J]

Thank you for the responses.

Bytebear,

Is it common to interpret Genesis 1:27 as not only referring to God/Godhead, but also the Heavenly Mother? I always assumed that the "us" in this passage referred to the Father and the Son (and perhaps the Holy Spirit), since Jesus created everything under the direction of the Father. So if the Heavenly Mother is also being referenced in Genesis 1:27, that means that "God" in this verse not only includes the Father (and the Son perhaps), but Heavenly Mother? Sorry, this just seems a little confusing as far as the interpretation of Gen 1:27 goes.

And thanks for the references to Church manuals. I'm really more curious about where the doctrine came from, i.e. if Joseph Smith or another prophet had a revelation that led to the belief, or if it came about from speculation/extrapolation of scriptural verses, and when any of this actually happened. Did Joseph Smith talk about Heavenly Mother/Heavenly Parents? When?

Also, I do know that there isn't much known about Heavenly Mother. I'm more interested in when what we do know entered into LDS theology, and how (mostly because of this "standard works only" view of LDS doctrine held by many, as well as the view that doctrines must come from revelations and not speculations (since these speculations pretty much causes all apostasies throughout all dispensations).

Thanks again.

[bytebear]

Thank you for the responses.

Bytebear,

Is it common to interpret Genesis 1:27 as not only referring to God/Godhead, but also the Heavenly Mother? I always assumed that the "us" in this passage referred to the Father and the Son (and perhaps the Holy Spirit), since Jesus created everything under the direction of the Father. So if the Heavenly Mother is also being referenced in Genesis 1:27, that means that "God" in this verse not only includes the Father (and the Son perhaps), but Heavenly Mother? Sorry, this just seems a little confusing as far as the interpretation of Gen 1:27 goes.

And thanks for the references to Church manuals. I'm really more curious about where the doctrine came from, i.e. if Joseph Smith or another prophet had a revelation that led to the belief, or if it came about from speculation/extrapolation of scriptural verses, and when any of this actually happened. Did Joseph Smith talk about Heavenly Mother/Heavenly Parents? When?

Also, I do know that there isn't much known about Heavenly Mother. I'm more interested in when what we do know entered into LDS theology, and how (mostly because of this "standard works only" view of LDS doctrine held by many, as well as the view that doctrines must come from revelations and not speculations (since these speculations pretty much causes all apostasies throughout all dispensations).

Thanks again.

The Genesis reference can be interpreted both ways. The physical world was created by Christ, but the spiritual was created by the Father, and the creation of Man from the dust of the Earth could be interpreted as by Christ (or the Godhead), or it could have been the one special instance when the Father did the work directly. But, the real key is the phrase "male and female.' God the Father is male, Jesus Christ is male, and the Holy Ghost is male (although a very few believe that the HG is actually a female spirit). The point is, human spirits are gendered, and as you know, we are of the same species as God, so God is gendered. I suppose as Justice has said, you could look at other verses like "Neither is the man without the women in God" to be another scripture defining the nature of God as not only gendered, but complete only with a female counterpart.

Now much of the discussion about Heavenly Mother is speculation, and anyone can believe whatever they want, but when one teaches aspects that are not doctrinal, then they may be subject to excommunication, as has happened during the feminist movement when HM was being reinterpreted and redefined in the role of worship.

I suggest reading this article. It will give you some background you are looking for.

Heavenly Mother (Mormonism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edited February 12, 2010 by bytebear

[marts1]

Anything published by the church is considered scripture. The book Gospel Principles says we have heavenly parents.

[Jason_J]

The Genesis reference can be interpreted both ways. The physical world was created by Christ, but the spiritual was created by the Father, and the creation of Man from the dust of the Earth could be interpreted as by Christ (or the Godhead), or it could have been the one special instance when the Father did the work directly. But, the real key is the phrase "male and female.' God the Father is male, Jesus Christ is male, and the Holy Ghost is male (although a very few believe that the HG is actually a female spirit). The point is, human spirits are gendered, and as you know, we are of the same species as God, so God is gendered. I suppose as Justice has said, you could look at other verses like "Neither is the man without the women in God" to be another scripture defining the nature of God as not only gendered, but complete only with a female counterpart.

Now much of the discussion about Heavenly Mother is speculation, and anyone can believe whatever they want, but when one teaches aspects that are not doctrinal, then they may be subject to excommunication, as has happened during the feminist movement when HM was being reinterpreted and redefined in the role of worship.

I suggest reading this article. It will give you some background you are looking for.

Heavenly Mother (Mormonism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks, the wikipedia page pretty much covers what I was looking for. It's interesting though that there really isn't an explicit revelation on Heavenly Mother, nor an explicit reference to when the doctrine of her existence was restored.

[bytebear]

Anything published by the church is considered scripture. The book Gospel Principles says we have heavenly parents.

Not really. There is a difference between Church manuals and the Standard Works. Even the chapter headings, study guides and Bible Dictionary of the LDS version of the Scriptures are not authoritative as demonstrated in the change from "principal ancestors" to "among the ancestors" in the Book of Mormon Introduction.

But more importantly, we believe in continuing revelation, and that some things are made more clear, as evidenced by the Book of Mormon interpretation change above, or scripture that supersedes past revelations. We may yet be given specific revelation about Heavenly Mother, and it may contradict all understanding, but for now, we work with what we have.

Edited February 12, 2010 by bytebear

[Jason_J]

Anything published by the church is considered scripture. The book Gospel Principles says we have heavenly parents.

I thought only the Standard Works (and the "inspired words of living prophets") were scripture, according to Gospel Principles. That would exclude Gospel Principles itself....

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts four books as scripture: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These books are called the standard works of the Church. The inspired words of our living prophets are also accepted as scripture." Page 45 of Gospel Principles, Chapter 10-Scriptures.

[bytebear]

Thanks, the wikipedia page pretty much covers what I was looking for. It's interesting though that there really isn't an explicit revelation on Heavenly Mother, nor an explicit reference to when the doctrine of her existence was restored.

Well, you also need to understand that not all doctrine is taught in scripture. The instruction in the temple, although grounded in scriptural truth, is presented in such a way that personal revelation and interpretation abound. Remember that the gospel is not based on an instruction manual, but on a personal spiritual witness from God.

[ferretrunner]

The Book of Genesis when teaching about the creation indirectly mentions the Mother. Humans were created in the image of the Divine... male and female. How could a male only God create a female in His image? Rather indirect but it can be viewed as a strong implication there is a Mother involved somewhere.

I always thought that Her role in the creation and in spirituality is something that we still haven't received full revelation of yet. I don't think humanity was ready once the patriarchies became so firmly established. I think once humans are ready to hear more about Her and respect femaleness more, we will hear more about Her. I'm not trying to dog men, just pointing out that our world hasn't been very female friendly for thousands of years.

[marts1]

I have heard it said the reason the Mother or Mothers have not been mentioned is because our Father did not want Her ridiculed by Her children as He is which makes sense to me.

[JohnOF123]

The Book of Genesis when teaching about the creation indirectly mentions the Mother. Humans were created in the image of the Divine... male and female. How could a male only God create a female in His image? Rather indirect but it can be viewed as a strong implication there is a Mother involved somewhere.

I always thought that Her role in the creation and in spirituality is something that we still haven't received full revelation of yet. I don't think humanity was ready once the patriarchies became so firmly established. I think once humans are ready to hear more about Her and respect femaleness more, we will hear more about Her. I'm not trying to dog men, just pointing out that our world hasn't been very female friendly for thousands of years.

I mentioned this yesterday but perhaps it would all make sense once we look at how God also told us that we need to "Conform to the Image of Jesus Christ".

Wouldn't it be make sense to conclude that we are "made in the image of God" by having moral character as He does, emotions, ability to use logic, etc.. We were created a thinking, loving being as God is, but not necessarily looking like Him. Similarly we are supposed to conform to the image of The Son by morally and spiritually changing, not with plastic surgery.

God didn't decide to make woman until He saw that man shouldn't be alone and could not find a suitable helpmate among the existing creation. Hope that helps a little from my view of things

[bytebear]

I thought only the Standard Works (and the "inspired words of living prophets") were scripture, according to Gospel Principles. That would exclude Gospel Principles itself....

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts four books as scripture: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These books are called the standard works of the Church. The inspired words of our living prophets are also accepted as scripture." Page 45 of Gospel Principles, Chapter 10-Scriptures.

Well, anything spoken of through the spirit is scripture, but it requires not just the speaker but the listener to have it confirmed by the spirit to be truth. It's a symbiotic relationship, where both the speaker and the listener need to be in tune.

Read D&C 71, and see how God explained it to Joseph Smith.

Also read Alma 12 which talks about how a prophet can interpret scripture and "explain things beyond, or to unfold the scriptures."

Edited February 12, 2010 by bytebear

[ferretrunner]

I mentioned this yesterday but perhaps it would all make sense once we look at how God also told us that we need to "Conform to the Image of Jesus Christ".

Wouldn't it be make sense to conclude that we are "made in the image of God" by having moral character as He does, emotions, ability to use logic, etc.. We were created a thinking, loving being as God is, but not necessarily looking like Him. Similarly we are supposed to conform to the image of The Son by morally and spiritually changing, not with plastic surgery.

God didn't decide to make woman until He saw that man shouldn't be alone and could not find a suitable helpmate among the existing creation. Hope that helps a little from my view of things

There are two versions of the story. In one version, men and women are created at the same time. In the other version, males are created first then women.

"001:026 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our

likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,

and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over

all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth

upon the earth.

001:027 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God

created he him; male and female created he them.

001:028 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and

multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have

dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the

air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

[JohnOF123]

There are two versions of the story. In one version, men and women are created at the same time. In the other version, males are created first then women.

lol, yea us men are lost without women. But as the book of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are all different accounts of the story, it has been accepted that these two accounts of the creation of man are also talking about the same event. But I was mostly trying to get my point across about the whole "God's image".

[bytebear]

God didn't decide to make woman until He saw that man shouldn't be alone and could not find a suitable helpmate among the existing creation. Hope that helps a little from my view of things

I understand that position, but it is incompatible with LDS theology. If we were created as spirits before the earth was created, then God already knew he was going to create Eve.

[Jason_J]

I mentioned this yesterday but perhaps it would all make sense once we look at how God also told us that we need to "Conform to the Image of Jesus Christ".

Wouldn't it be make sense to conclude that we are "made in the image of God" by having moral character as He does, emotions, ability to use logic, etc.. We were created a thinking, loving being as God is, but not necessarily looking like Him. Similarly we are supposed to conform to the image of The Son by morally and spiritually changing, not with plastic surgery.

God didn't decide to make woman until He saw that man shouldn't be alone and could not find a suitable helpmate among the existing creation. Hope that helps a little from my view of things

Interesting, thank you. I assume you're referring to Romans 8:29-

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So in this case, "image" (or "likeness" in the NIV) isn't referring to a physical image. So in the Bible, one can't say that "image" always refers to a physical image. I'd also be interested in an LDS view.

[Justice]

Here is sound evidence that the Father has a wife:

Genesis 2:

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

There had not yet been a "mother" that Adam could see, other than his own. He had a wife at that point, but still being in the Garden, and before he ate the fruit, I don't think he fully understood what a mother was yet, he just knew he had one.

As I said, there is evidence throught the scriptures.

Here's one I like in Proverbs 3 that could possibly be speaking of her:

13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.

16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.

17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.

18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

You may have to read that one a few times to see it.

There are many scriptures like these.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Justice

[Blackmarch]

Where did the belief in the existence of Heavenly Mother come from? From what I am aware of, she is not mentioned in any of the Standard Works. Now, on other forums, I have come across people that are "Standard Works Only LDS", who believe that official doctrines are only found in the Standard Works. If this is a valid viewpoint, how do they reconcile belief in Heavenly Mother?

Is there a revelation on her (since from what I gather, all LDS doctrines are believed to arise from revelations, in contrast to speculations of human origin, right?)?

Thanks!

Logic mainly, perhaps personal revelation.

[JohnOF123]

Here is sound evidence that the Father has a wife:

Genesis 2:

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

There had not yet been a "mother" that Adam could see, other than his own. He had a wife at that point, but still being in the Garden, and before he ate the fruit, I don't think he fully understood what a mother was yet, he just knew he had one.

As I said, there is evidence throught the scriptures.

Here's one I like in Proverbs 3 that could possibly be speaking of her:

13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.

16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.

17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.

18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

You may have to read that one a few times to see it.

There are many scriptures like these.

I can understand that you believe something to be fact, but I have to point out that you are reading way too much into the text. These scriptural references aren't related with the subject. Some Hebrew nouns have a gender – either masculine or feminine. Some Hebrew words have dual form, those passages wouldn't tell me that God is trans-gendered. Perhaps in this case you could read up a little on the Hebrew language. Another great study skill can be obtained by a Hermeneutics course; they also have great books on the subject. I'm not trying to be condescending, I truly am trying to be helpful here.

[marts1]

Tend to agree with John on that one.

[ferretrunner]

One issue that is present within Scripture is the role of women in the time it was written. In other words, the Bible especially is written from a patriarchical point of view. Perhaps mention of the Mother was rare due to the societal issues at that time. Women weren't valued very much beyond chattel. Would a Goddess be any more acceptable? Unless you're talking about some of the ancient pagan Mother religions....

There's a challenging term. We don't call Heavenly Mother a Goddess. Why not?

[Justice]

I have thought about that before. I wonder if the rank or term "God" is tied to the Priesthood somehow?

Just something I've wondered about.