Heavenly Mother and Scripture

[Soninme]

So, if the Book of Mormon is scripture about Christ, and Christians reject it, aren't His people still rejecting Him?

What would the difference be between then and now?

If the BOM is scripture about Christ and is rejected, then that one has rejected the revelation that God has given of Himself and thus rejected God.

If the BOM is not scripture about Christ and one accepts it as such then he has believed a false gospel.

IMHO I don't see another view.

[Maureen]

This is what wikipedia says about the origins of HM:

Origin of the Heavenly Mother theology

The theological underpinnings of a belief in Heavenly Mother is attributed to Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, who shortly before his death in 1844 outlined a controversial view of God that differed dramatically from traditional Christian consensus.[7] Smith's theology included the belief that God would share his glory with his children and that humans might become exalted beings, or gods and goddesses, in the afterlife (see Exaltation).

Although there is no clear record of Joseph Smith teaching of Heavenly Mother publicly, several of Smith's contemporaries attributed the theology to him either directly, or as a consequence of his theological stance. An editorial footnote of History of the Church, 5:254, presumably quotes Joseph Smith as saying: "Come to me; here's the mysteries man hath not seen, Here's our Father in heaven, and Mother, the Queen." In addition, a secondhand account states that in 1839, Joseph Smith had told Zina Diantha Huntington, one of Smith's plural wives, after the death of her mother, that "not only would she know her mother again on the other side, but 'more than that, you will meet and become acquainted with your eternal Mother, the wife of your Father in Heaven'."[8]

In addition, members of the Anointed Quorum, a highly select spiritual organization in the early Church that was privy to Smith's teachings, also acknowledged the existence of a Heavenly Mother.[9] Also, the Times and Seasons published a letter to the editor from a person named "Joseph's Specked Bird" in which the author stated that in the pre-Earth life, the spirit "was a child with his father and mother in heaven".[10]

In 1845, after the murder of Joseph Smith, the poet Eliza Roxcy Snow, published a poem entitled My Father in Heaven, (later titled Invocation, or the Eternal Father and Mother, now used as the lyrics in the popular Latter-day Saint hymn O My Father), acknowledges the existence of a Heavenly Mother.[11] This hymn contained the following language:

In the heavens are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare.

Truth is reason: truth eternal

tells me I've a mother there.

Some early Mormons considered Eliza Snow to be a "prophetess".[12] Later, however, Church President Joseph F. Smith (a nephew of Joseph Smith, Jr.) explained his own belief that "God revealed that principle that we have a mother as well as a father in heaven to Joseph Smith; Joseph Smith revealed it to Eliza Snow Smith, his wife; and Eliza Snow was inspired, being a poet, to put it into verse."[13]

The doctrine is also attributed to several other early church leaders. According to one sermon by Brigham Young, Joseph Smith once said he "would not worship a God who had not a father; and I do not know that he would if he had not a mother; the one would be as absurd as the other" (Journal of Discourses, vol.9, p. 286).

M.

[marts1]

I remember that song so well. When the missionairies were teaching me about how we have a Mother in heaven, I had a hard time accepting it. The day told me about this was on a saturday. The next day was the first time I heard it. I smiled as the missionairies turned around to see my reaction. I'm so glad my memory is still in tact. :)

[marts1]

I tend to think that the husband and wife should preside together equally. Perhaps a decision might need to be made where they both don't agree but that should be very rare.

[Justice]

This topic can get deep fast, but is the most logical thing I've ever heard (that there is a Mother in Heaven).

I see them having different roles in the perfecting of their children. It seems Father deals more with mortality, while Mother [probably] deals more with pre-mortality.

Different roles, or responsibilities, where both are required, yet work together for the same end.

I don't want to say too much, but it is very logical why men have the priesthood and deal with mortality. It is out of necessity, not choice.

[JohnOF123]

I tend to disagree on this point. I just gotta jump in here and remind everyone that we are not born children of God. I would say that we are Gods creation, but are not children of God until we are saved; we then become adopted as children of God.

We cannot ignore that there were Jews that claimed "Our Father is God", and Jesus told them “if God were your Father, ye would love me (in other words, God is not your Father). And a verse later Jesus said "Ye are of your father the devil"

Right there, here are some Jewish men, and we know that they were born. And Jesus just told them that they are not children of God. Men born not children of God. So on earth, we know there are men who are children of God and men who are not children of God.

We are further told

Galatians 3:26

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 1:5

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

So wouldn't you agree with Jesus that these men were not "children of God" and that the Bible says that we are rather adopted by faith in Christ. I'd be interested in your input, but from scripture, not based on our feelings or what makes more sense to us. If we feel one way, and scripture says we are wrong, then we have to conform to God's Word.

Edited February 14, 2010 by JohnOF123

[marts1]

You were right Justice, its getting deep now. :)

[JohnOF123]

You were right Justice, its getting deep now. :)

I agree, let's go deep, lol. I find it very interesting to talk about how these teachings are reconciled in light of what Jesus and the Bible claim. I'm interested in Justices perspective on this, and others of course.

[Justice]

Again, without the light of modern scripture and the additional witness of the Book of Mormon, I'd say these truths are near impossible to see in the Bible. It's all in your interpretation of those words.

Remember that we passed through the fall, which brought spiritual death, or separation from God. Death does not mean the same thing to God as it does to us. There is no "cease to exist" like we think it means. If you test your understanding of "death" against the teaching that we are children (offspring) of God, follow it though the fall (spiritual DEATH), and then rebirth through Christ, we ARE adopted back into the family of God because of Christ. We are "spiritually reborn" through an in Christ.

Modern scripture:

Moses 6:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

So, we're back to square one. This is what I warned you about in the other thread. You can't rely on what you know and interpret from the Bible, because, frankly and bluntly, you are wrong but you don't see it. I think you do very well without modern revelation. I have no idea where I'd be in life or what I would believe without the Book of Mormon and modern prophets. Probably not as close to Christ as you are.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Justice

[JohnOF123]

Again, without the light of modern scripture and the additional witness of the Book of Mormon, I'd say these truths are near impossible to see in the Bible. It's all in your interpretation of those words.

Remember that we passed through the fall, which brought spiritual death, or separation from God. Death does not mean the same thing to God as it does to us. There is no "cease to exist" like we think it means. If you test your understanding of "death" against the teaching that we are children (offspring) of God, follow it though the fall (spiritual DEATH), and then rebirth through Christ, we ARE adopted back into the family of God because of Christ.

This is what I warned you about in the other thread. You can't rely on what you know and interpret from the Bible, because, frankly and bluntly, you are wrong. I think you do very well without modern revelation. I have no idea where I'd be in life or what I would believe without the Book of Mormon and modern prophets. Probably not as close to Christ as you are.

What is there to interpret when men claim to be children of God and Jesus says No, you're children of the devil? It seems whenever you don't agree with something so clearly said, (children, adoption) you say it's based on interpretation. Ok, wait, I don't mean to be rude here, but what I mean to say is that can't we just let the Bible speak for itself? I can give you a map and you can attempt to interpret it anyway you wish, but it's not going to be of any use to you unless you trust what it plainly says.

"Our Father is God", and Jesus said “if God were your Father, ye would love me.

And a verse later Jesus said "Ye are of your father the devil"

Galatians 3:26

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 1:5

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

Edited February 14, 2010 by JohnOF123

[Justice]

John, you're picking and choosing what you want to believe also.

Luke 3:

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

In Adam's geneaology it says he is the son of God. I have showed you other places where it says this as well. Both must agree. So, you have to interpret one or the other.

I have told you, and posted modern scripture, where we fell and died spiritually. If you are not re-born in Christ then, yes, you remain a child of who you serve.

There is some symbolism in this, and analogy. You have to choose what you want to believe.

As I already told you, you're not going to understand modern revelation if you keep comparing back to what you are misinterpreting from the Bible.

[JohnOF123]

John, you're picking and choosing what you want to believe also.

Luke 3:

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

In Adam's geneaology it says he is the son of God. I have showed you other places where it says this as well. Both must agree. So, you have to interpret one or the other.

I have told you, and posted modern scripture, where we fell and died spiritually. If you are not re-born in Christ then, yes, you remain a child of who you serve.

There is some symbolism in this, and analogy. You have to choose what you want to believe.

I'll agree here, Adam was the son of God. And I'll also agree with Jesus that those men were not the "children of God".

[marts1]

My mother was raised a strict catholic and it is largly because of her that I had and have a belief in God. I knew her to do no wrong. So I somewhat have a bond with the catholic faith. I agree with Justice when he says you are exceptional considering you are catholic.:) I have been acquainted with some very good people who are catholic. An exception would have been my step grandmother who actually punched me when she found out I joined the lds church.:) You and other fine catholic people remind me of how it didn't matter what truths I spoke to my mother about, she would not let go of anything concerning her religion. A funny little story...When I was born my mother felt no pain and said that I would be a priest. Little did she realise it would in the lds church.:)

[marts1]

Wow! Got somebody going.:)

[Justice]

Very interesting reads, changed. Something to ponder about. Thank you.

Buried in your words is the message that without modern revelation there are some things that are very difficult to see in the Bible.

We are told that earthly things are made to remind us of heavenly things. If any honest seeker of truth opens their mind and ponders it for a while, they will see that God is our Father in Heaven, and therefore, we have a Mother in Heaven. It does not get any simpler than that.

It's not spelled out in the scriptures (Bible or Book of Mormon) in as many words, but the symbolism is everywhere, starting with the fact that all species of life have male and female. God "created" man after His image; in His likeness, both male and female. The pattern couldn't be more clear.

That God is alone is such a dismal thought. The entire Christian world accepts that He has a Son but refuses to accept that He has a wife. You can't have a son without a mother.

John, forget about what you've been taught and just think about it.

There is a movie I enjoy called The Forbidden Kingdom. A kung-fu master is trying to teach a young man kung-fu. This student has watched kung-fu movies and read about it in books his entire life, but he didn't know how to use what he had learned. He was a walking encyclopedia about king-fu but never learned to apply it. One night as the master was pouring hot water into the boy's cup, he kept pouring after it was full and the cup began to run over. The boy said, "OK it's full!" The master told him that he was like that cup. He said it was impossible for him to teach him king-fu because his mind was already full. He told him he needed to "empty his cup" before he can learn.

This is a perfect analogy for how many people try to learn about the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Their minds are already so full of what they interpret the Gospel to be, they don't allow the truth to freely enter.

John, that is you, my friend.

Empty your cup.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Justice

[marts1]

Reminds me of how some things are just too simple to see.:)

[JohnOF123]

I think making keeping covenants change us from:

Spirit children - those who kept their first estate - God loves/accepts us

Spiritually begotten - those who kept their first estate and are also trying to keep their 2nd estate too - We love and accept God.

Hello Changed. I think I halfway agree with you here. I agree that we are changed from A to B, however I think I disagree with what those A and B are and also the means to which we are changed. Let me explain.

I believe at first we are A: creation, lost, spiritually dead, enemies with God.

We then become B: saved, spiritually alive, born of Zion above, adopted children of God.

And here is an example of somebody being saved.

I believe our means to salvation is that those whom God draws to him, see themselves for what they truly are (a wretched lost sinner with no way to appease God's wrath apart from faith in Christ) completely humble themselves before God, die to themselves, throw themselves at the foot of the cross for mercy and are supernaturally changed? At this time, they are changed and adopted as a child of God (their heart of stone is ripped out and given a heart of flesh) and by nature they do good works. Out of this new nature comes good works.

A cow goes moo because it's in his nature to do so. (Saved people do good works because it is in their new nature)

Mooing cannot make you a cow. (Doing good works cannot make you saved)

Good fruit does not make a tree good.

A good tree bears good fruit.

Buried in your words is the message that without modern revelation there are some things that are very difficult to see in the Bible.

But I found all of the above in the Bible, all clear and straight forward.

God is our Father in Heaven, and therefore, we have a Mother in Heaven. It does not get any simpler than that...

...You can't have a son without a mother.

I would have to disagree here. I think it is clear that Jesus created us, so I don't see how we can all be brothers with a spiritual mother.

Colossians 1:15-17

...his dear Son: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And this is also backed up by John 1:1-3

John, that is you, my friend.

Empty your cup.

I like your analogy (and kung-foo movies ), but I have to say that I emptied myself completely before God. He fills me daily with His Word, and I think what you might be asking me to do, without knowing it, is for me to empty myself of God's Word [bible] to fill it with modern revelation.

I could be wrong here, but are you asking me to empty myself of the Bible to fill myself with modern revelation? Or can I keep myself filled with God's Word and examine other doctrine? I will agree with you that some people can just interpret things, but many times it is clear as day and states things as fact, without need for interpretation. For example, did Jesus create all things in heaven (and on earth) by Himself and for Himself?

Edited February 14, 2010 by JohnOF123

[Jason_J]

Not sure if anyone has already mentioned this, but FAIR has a helpful article on this topic:

FAIR Topical Guide: FAIR Papers

Click on "Do We Have a Mother in Heaven?".

[bytebear]

Hello Changed. I think I halfway agree with you here. I agree that we are changed from A to B, however I think I disagree with what those A and B are and also the means to which we are changed. Let me explain.

I believe at first we are A: creation, lost, spiritually dead, enemies with God.

We then become B: saved, spiritually alive, born of Zion above, adopted children of God.

And here is an example of somebody being saved.

I believe our means to salvation is that those whom God draws to him, see themselves for what they truly are (a wretched lost sinner with no way to appease God's wrath apart from faith in Christ) completely humble themselves before God, die to themselves, throw themselves at the foot of the cross for mercy and are supernaturally changed? At this time, they are changed and adopted as a child of God (their heart of stone is ripped out and given a heart of flesh) and by nature they do good works. Out of this new nature comes good works.

I cannot believe man was created by God as a spiritually dead, enemy with God being. God is perfect. He cannot create imperfection, but perfection is not completion and we had to be placed into an imperfect world to become compete. Imperfection does not come from the creation but from free will, as the transgression of Adam shows.

[JohnOF123]

I cannot believe man was created by God as a spiritually dead, enemy with God being. God is perfect. He cannot create imperfection, but perfection is not completion and we had to be placed into an imperfect world to become compete. Imperfection does not come from the creation but from free will, as the transgression of Adam shows.

Hard to swallow, I know. I am just saying what the Bible teaches.

Romans 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Psalm 10:4

The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

As far as your analogy goes, "Imperfection" is also found in eye sight, natural disasters, mentally retarded individuals, birth deformities, etc, etc.

The truth is that we are all sinners. We would never seek after God unless He first draws us to Him. We are selfish and sin everyday. We have broken all of His commandments.

We are born spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"

We were warned

Genesis 2:17

"for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"

They didn't physically die, they spiritually died. And we are born spiritually dead.

"No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again’” (John 3:3-7).

The phrase "born again" literally means "born from above."

Edited February 15, 2010 by JohnOF123

[JohnOF123]

I just want to say something; off topic. I really enjoy talking to everyone on here. You all have very interesting view points and ideas. I commend all of you for having such a zeal for God and for truth. Most people are only concerned with "getting their work done" then having time to themselves. But you are on here to preach and learn about God. It is great to learn each others view points so we can better understand real people out in the real world. Clean, respectful debate can be healthy in this sense. And a big thanks for talking to me, and to the moderators for allowing me to talk.

[bytebear]

Hard to swallow, I know. I am just saying what the Bible teaches.

Romans 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Psalm 10:4

The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

As far as your analogy goes, "Imperfection" is also found in eye sight, natural disasters, mentally retarded individuals, birth deformities, etc, etc.

The truth is that we are all sinners. We would never seek after God unless He first draws us to Him. We are selfish and sin everyday. We have broken all of His commandments.

We are born spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins"

We were warned

Genesis 2:17

"for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"

They didn't physically die, they spiritually died. And we are born spiritually dead.

"No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again’” (John 3:3-7).

The phrase "born again" literally means "born from above."

We aren't born spiritually dead. Babies don't have pride. They don't actively choose to sin. They learn that because they are born into an imperfect world. That's why Jesus said we must become as little children, innocent and sinless. (Matt. 18: 3)

[JohnOF123]

We aren't born spiritually dead. Babies don't have pride. They don't actively choose to sin. They learn that because they are born into an imperfect world. That's why Jesus said we must become as little children, innocent and sinless. (Matt. 18: 3)

Jesus didn't say children were sinless. In the next verse, Jesus explains that we must humble ourselves as a little "child"

See, there are many men who refuse to believe, or change their belief. They lack humility like that of a child. The Pharisees were a good example of this, they were too proud to change their mind.

Matthew 11:25

Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

I have seen angry 2 and 3 year olds and I can tell you they are a perfect example of our sinful state. They will lie, yell, be selfish, bite you, etc etc. Some kids are better than others but we are all born in sin.

Psalm 51:5

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I have to believe these passages and it explains reality, with children and men.

Edited February 15, 2010 by JohnOF123

[bytebear]

In the next verse, Jesus explains that we must humble ourselves as a little "child".

There are many men who refuse to believe, or change their belief. They lack humility like that of a child.

Matthew 11:25

Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

I have seen angry 2 and 3 year olds and I can tell you they are a perfect example of our sinful state. They will lie, yell, be selfish, bite you, etc etc. Some kids are better than others but we are all born in sin.

Psalm 51:5

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I have to believe these passages and it explains reality, with children and men.

Well, fortunately we have the Book of Mormon to clarify things.

Mosiah 3: 16 little children . . . Christ atoneth for their sins.

Mosiah 15: 25 little children also have eternal life.

Moro. 8: 22 all little children are alive in Christ.

And modern scripture that clarifies things even more:

D&C 74: 7 children are holy, being sanctified through the atonement.

D&C 93: 38 men became again, in their infant state, innocent.

D&C 137: 10 all children who die before . . . accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom.

D&C 20: 71 unless he has arrived unto the years of accountability.

D&C 29: 46 children are redeemed . . . through mine Only Begotten.

So, the simple answer is, the atonement purifies children up to the age of accountability, and we must become as little children to also become purified. So, the Bible along with modern revelation makes perfect sense.

[JohnOF123]

Well, fortunately we have the Book of Mormon to clarify things.

And modern scripture that clarifies things even more:

Please answer 2 questions for me. Feel free to start off your answer with a yes or no.

Let's start from the Bible, since we can both agree that it's the Word of God.

1. Biblically speaking, is everyone a child of God, or are we His enemies until we are [saved] adopted as children of God?

Romans 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Galatians 3:26

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 1:5

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

John 8:42,44

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me...

44Ye are of your father the devil..

John 1:12

..to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

So born as enemies... or as children of God?

And

2. Biblically speaking, are we born in sin?

Psalm 51:5

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men

Romans 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners

Edited February 15, 2010 by JohnOF123