Heavenly Mother and Scripture

[JohnOF123]

Not sure what the past couple pages have to do with the fact that we have a Heavenly Mother.

Many threads veer off topic.

But the question remains unanswered.

[marts1]

Satan is the cause of a huge amount of sin in this world. Also the fact that the memories of any prior existance not being readily available, would also be a factor.

[john doe]

So are you asking this question because you don't have the answer and just KNOW there has to be a third reason? Or do you have an idea and want us to guess what you think?

[JohnOF123]

So are you asking this question because you don't have the answer and just KNOW there has to be a third reason?

I would say there is only one reason. My conclusion was this...

Humans have free agency [and a sinful nature],therefore they choose to sin (and can be naturally prideful/arrogant/lustful).

Saying it's free agency alone does not work. Since beings can exist whom also have free agency, but choose not to sin. So free agency by itself does not make one sin. There must be something else there. I've inserted what I believe the Bible says in Romans 5:12 and Psalm 51:5.

I think that all humans have a sinful nature and therefore naturally choose to sin (and are prideful, lustful). Otherwise, why do all men sin. If it's only natural for men to sin, then men have a sinful nature, right?

Satan is the cause of a huge amount of sin in this world. Also the fact that the memories of any prior existance not being readily available, would also be a factor.

I agree, good observation Marts. But Satan tempted Jesus as he does us, though Jesus never chose to sin. I would say Jesus has free agency but did not have a sinful nature and therefore never sinned.

Whereas, Moses also had free agency and a sinful nature and therefore chose to sin.

If we did not have a sinful nature, we could be tempted, but would choose not to sin.

[Justice]

I think he's trying to get at "sin nature" as many Christians believe we inherited from Adam. If he's not, he's getting very close. This makes sense since he's using only one (his) interpretation of the Bible.

Moroni 7 explains this dilemma better than any other scripture, imo:

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

There is no 3rd option.

We are placed in a world with good and evil. God made the good, and Satan twisted the good into evil, and now evil exists also. When a man is born into the world he is enticed by both sides. Satan uses addiction to try to force people to choose his side. Christ invites with peace and love.

Without modern scripture you will spend the rest of your life spinning your wheels in search of this answer.

I agree we have agency, but the question is Why do we all sin in our free will [our agency]? So the answer cannot be "because we have agency."

We sin because we have free agency and choose it. We are not forced to by a nature or else we would not be responsible. If we were forced into sin by a nature then we wouldn't have agency, would we? You cannot have both. Since you already said you agree we have agency, then you must also believe there is no sin nature that we are forced to obey.

Do you agree that we are responsible for our actions?

If you do, then you must concede we are only responsible because we are accountable for the choice. And, again, then it was not a nature impossible to overcome, but a choice.

If you do not think we are responsible, then I ask you to explain why the atonement was necessary.

Ok so all children begin to sin because...

Because they choose to. It's not complicated.

[Justice]

And, as far as your use of Romans 5: 12 to prove your point, you are mis-interpreting it.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Read it close, and set aside the erronious interpretation you've been taught, or arrived at yourself.

"by one man sin entered the world"

This does not mean sin is forced on all who enter the world, as many suppose. It means that because Adam fell, evil entered the world, and now both good and evil are present.

It goes on to say that since all men have sinned, death was passed to all men.

Again, this does not mean all men were forced to sin, it means no man could choose not to die since they chose to sin.

Christ is the only One who did not choose sin, and He overcame death.

Follow me closely here. Since Christ did not choose to sin, He overcame death... and in some way incomprehensible to us, He is able to pass this on to all.

This verse does not preclude choice, as many suppose it does.

There is no sin nature that cannot be overcome by choice. Christ proved it.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Justice

[Justice]

Oh, and if a man has a sin nature it is because he chose it.

I am not trying to say "sin nature" does not exist.

[bytebear]

The idea of us being naturaly sinful, does remind me of the scripture "The natural man is an enemy to God" The problem I have is that this is not the nature we are born with, but comes from living in an imperfect world. Read the verse, (and the chapter) for better understanding.

Mosiah 3

" 19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. "

[JohnOF123]

God made the good, and Satan twisted the good into evil, and now evil exists also. When a man is born into the world he is enticed by both sides.

I think you are referring to "temptation"by Satan. I will show how this is not the core reason below.

...all children begin to sin because...

Because they choose to. It's not complicated.

Jesus demonstrated it is not Free Agency (choice) alone. Jesus had free agency but never chose to sin.

We have free agency and do choose to sin. So free agency is not what cause us to sin.

And the answer is not Satan either, since Satan tempted Jesus.

Satan tempted Jesus. Jesus had Free Agency. Jesus never sinned.

Satan also tempts men. Men also have Free Agency. But men sin.

Clearly, the answer is not Satan or Free Agency, since Jesus had both varibles but never sinned. We have both variable and do sin.

Satan tempts men. Men have free agency and have a sinful nature. Therefore, men sin.

Satan also tempted Jesus. Jesus also had free agency but did not have a sinful nature. Jesus never sinned.

So again, why do all men sin. (The answer is not simply Satan or Free Agency) There is a core difference between the nature of Jesus and the nature of man.

[Dravin]

If you think people are saying that agency causes us to sin then there has been a communications breakdown.

Men sin because they are tempted to do so and choose to do so.

Jesus didn't sin because he was tempted to do so and choose not to do so.

Both are examples of agency, though one is the better use than the other. We have a fallen nature, it lends itself towards sin. Satan also does his best to get us to use our agency to choose sin (just as he did with Christ). However, these things don't cause us to sin, they tempt us and we give into them. When you talk about a sinful nature are you talking about the predilection towards sin mentioned above (fallen nature)? If you are I think some are taking it to mean* the child is guilty of sin before they have exercised agency to commit sin, and thus the all the talk about agency.

* The joys of theological cross talk.

So in short, as far as I understand the issue.

If:

Sinful nature = Predilection to sin. Then we (generically) are in agreement.

But if:

Sinful nature = Child is born guilty of sin and in need of repentance before that child has been able to exercise its agency to give in to temptation and sin itself. Then we (generically) have a disagreement.

[bytebear]

Again, you are forgetting two other examples. Adam who lived in a perfect environment, and the inhabitants of the city of Enoch. They overcame their "natural" state. Yes, Jesus is unique in that he remained perfect in an imperfect world. We are not capable of living perfectly, but we are capable of becoming perfect and overcoming. We must rely on the atonement of Christ and repentance to get there.

[Dravin]

Did I just seriously misjudge what the topic was at this point?

I do that from time to time.

[marts1]

You did, it just wasn't serious.:)

[marts1]

I find it hard to compare us to Jesus in some respects, when his father was not human.

[JohnOF123]

If:

Sinful nature = Predilection to sin. Then we (generically) are in agreement.

But if:

Sinful nature = Child is born guilty of sin and in need of repentance before that child has been able to exercise its agency to give in to temptation and sin itself. Then we (generically) have a disagreement.

Thanks for making your viewpoints clear and to the point. It saves hard drive space! We are in agreement with everything except I believe that we are all born in sin, even though there may be an age of accountability, whereas babies are not accountable.

[marts1]

It saves hard drive space! lolol I can see this thread ending soon.:)

[Justice]

Thanks for making your viewpoints clear and to the point. It saves hard drive space! We are in agreement with everything except I believe that we are all born in sin, even though there may be an age of accountability, whereas babies are not accountable.

What exactly do you mean by "born in sin?"

I'm confused because you say babies aren't accountable, yet they are born in sin.

Accountability is required in order to sin. Sin is a choice; without a choice there is no sin.

So, please explain how we can be born in sin if we are not accountable when we're born.

[JohnOF123]

What exactly do you mean by "born in sin?"

I'm confused because you say babies aren't accountable, yet they are born in sin.

Accountability is required in order to sin. Sin is a choice; without a choice there is no sin.

So, please explain how we can be born in sin if we are not accountable when we're born.

Psalm 51:5 KJV

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

We are born in sin, hence all of us ALL have a sinful nature. Ever notice how we all sin? No matter where we live, or who we live with, we are sinners. Perhaps a baby is not accountable, but we are born sinners.

Psalm 51:5 ESV

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5 NIV

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Psalm 51:5 NASB

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

Psalm 51:5 NLT

For I was born a sinner - yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

[pam]

Let me ask this. Just to get this straight in my mind. When you say we are "born sinners" are you saying the reason is because of the fall of Adam?

[Justice]

So you don't believe in an age of accountability. You confused me because you said you did (or might).

So, you do believe in a sin nature that we can't overcome. We must sin because of our "sin nature." That means we are not accountable because there was nothing we could do. We were forced. We do not have a choice.

Why didn't you just say so?

There is one thing about this belief I have yet to understand. Maybe you can explain how we can have a sin nature that we can't overcome and at the same time be accountable, since it's not a choice, it's a must...

How can we be held accountable when sin if forced on us and we have no choice?

[JohnOF123]

i'll be back in like an hour guys, and i'll edit this with my answer...

[Justice]

Psalm 51:5 KJV

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

We are born in sin, hence all of us ALL have a sinful nature. Ever notice how we all sin? No matter where we live, or who we live with, we are sinners. Perhaps a baby is not accountable, but we are born sinners.

Again, you misinterpret what was being said. This does not say the baby was sinful, it says the mother was. I don't know how his conception happened, but David thought it was in sin. It says he was "brought forth" in iniquity and "in sin did [his] mother conceive [him]." Where does this say David was sinful?

How does the fact that a mother brings forth a child in sin have any bearing on whether or not the baby is sinful? You're saying ALL babies are brought forth in sin? Even those babies conceived by a legally wedded mother and father? C'mon, you have to admit that doesn't make any sense. All I ask is that you think about it. If you have a good answer, please share.

Psalm 51:5 ESV

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51:5 NIV

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Psalm 51:5 NLT

For I was born a sinner - yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

You can disregard these other translations, they are made by people who believe like you trying to make the words say what they believe. They are not an accurate translation.

All mankind were born sinners? So, we have no choice? That's just man's way of justifying his sinful choices to make him feel better about himself.

The restored Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that we have a choice.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Justice

[JohnOF123]

Again, you misinterpret what was being said.

Stop. Go read Psalm 51.

Read the context man. The author is humiliated before God. He's distraught!

He's saying Lord I'M A SINNER.

Forgive me, please! Wash me! I've only sinned against you!

I was even born in sin! I was conceived in sin!

The context is me, sin, me, sin, me, sin, please have mercy on me!

Not, "ohh and by the way, my mom was sinful too Lord."

No, that doesn't even flow in this prayer.

What do you think the author is doing, trying to tell God "forgive me, I'm a terrible sinner, wash me! ohh but I'm not all that bad because my mommy sinned too? No! He's begging God for forgiveness. That would destroy this man's prayer and break the humility.

Try to read and feel out his sorrow, passion and humility. Read it in context for yourself.

1Have mercy upon me, O God,

according to thy lovingkindness:

according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies

blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity,

and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions:

and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned,

and done this evil in thy sight:

that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest,

and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;

and in sin did my mother conceive me.

That's just man's way of justifying his sinful choices to make him feel better about himself.

The restored Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that we have a choice.

We all believe we have a choice. It doesn't make us feel better. We hate our sin. It's the biggest frustration in a Christians life. But the Bible sheds a light on the true nature of man; a fallen, wretched, sinful being in need of God's mercy.

Edited February 16, 2010 by JohnOF123

[bytebear]

I think The Psalmist is speaking more metaphorical about the "natural man" which I mentioned earlier. For example

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

But, how many babies come out of the womb speaking at all, let alone speaking lies?

Could it be he is speaking of disbelievers who are raised without the covenant? Remember Israel is a family and being born into it in the OT was different from Gentiles who had to convert and even then it only happened after the coming of Christ. So if you are born outside the covenant of Abraham, you are essentially born without redemption.

It seems to me this is less about original sin, and more about cultural tribalism, but that's just my interpretation.

As to David in Psalms 51, he is lamenting his sin of going after Bathsheba. He basically is saying that his sin is so grave that it reverberates to all of time, and that he such a sinner and so evil for this act, that he was even sinful at birth. in other words, he is overemphasizing his transgression,but we should not take his guilty lamentation as prophetic doctrine, particularly considering, he was a fallen prophet at the time.

Edited February 16, 2010 by bytebear

[bytebear]

D&C 93:38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

So, I think if we think it out we are almost in agreement. The only difference, is you believe we are sinful upon creation, but LDS believe we are innocent.

Basically, if we were all created in the Garden before the fall, we would remain innocent, but could not progress. So the fall was necessary so we could progress. We are born innocent in an imperfect world, which allows for progression and if we learn to return to our infant state of innocent, we can be redeemed. Children are redeemed until an age of accountability, although they may not be sinless, Christ's atonement covers their sins.

How much of this do you disagree with?