Arnold Should Not Grant Him Clemency!

[sgallan]

And if you are LDS, remember that your Church teaches that this person will be going to a BETTER PLACE after his death, even if it is only the Telestial kingdom...which is a place more glorious than we can imagine. I doubt Tookie will go to Outer Darkness, as it is unlikely he sinned against the Holy Ghost.

So you might want to think that over...

It will just be rationalized as "but he will be away from God".

[Setheus]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 12 2005, 07:56 PM

It will just be rationalized as "but he will be away from God".

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You toss that out there as though being away from God is a minor thing.

You know the saying "Id rather be in a shack with my family than a mansion without them"......well, he may get a more glorious kingdom than earth but at least I'm in a state where I can commune with Heavenly Father ANY time I wish and know that He will answer me.

[sgallan]

You toss that out there as though being away from God is a minor thing.

For me it would be a good thing.

You know the saying "Id rather be in a shack with my family than a mansion without them"......well, he may get a more glorious kingdom than earth but at least I'm in a state where I can commune with Heavenly Father ANY time I wish and know that He will answer me.

One persons heaven is another persons hell.....

[sgallan]

FWIW.... y'all can party tonite. A guy is being killed. All the people he has touched and helped in the past 26 years years will be traumatized. But what do you care. They are people of race in a white world (yeah you deserve it because I remember the last debate along these lines was a white female who garnered much more sympathy). This should bring a smile to your face. If you have problems sleeping.... just count dead Tookies jumping over a fence.... you'll go right to sleep.

But trust me..... when a young family member makes a mistake, and wants an abortion, and needs a loan, I will remember this little instance, and not only give her the loan, but make sure she is well cared for, with little to nothing weighing on my conscience. Because like you..... I am a product of the society I live in, where life really doesn't mean all that much, on any side of the equation.

Just a thought. But a real world one. Because I have already done what I suggest I would do again.

I cant help but comment that it seems as though we of the LDSTalk message board are beign blamed for Tookie pa dookie's conviction and execution. I for one didnt even know who the man was until this thread started so surely I must be to blame for his death. Shame on us all.

Setheus was here X

[Jason]

Hey Scott,

Have you ever read Plato?

Socrates. Are we to say that we are never intentionally to do wrong, or that in one way we ought and in another way we ought not to do wrong, or is doing wrong always evil and dishonorable, as I was just now saying, and as has been already acknowledged by us? Are all our former admissions which were made within a few days to be thrown away? And have we, at our age, been earnestly discoursing with one another all our life long only to discover that we are no better than children? Or are we to rest assured, in spite of the opinion of the many, and in spite of consequences whether better or worse, of the truth of what was then said, that injustice is always an evil and dishonor to him who acts unjustly? Shall we affirm that?

Crito. Yes.

Soc. Then we must do no wrong?

Cr. Certainly not.

Soc. Nor when injured injure in return, as the many imagine; for we must injure no one at all?

Cr. Clearly not.

Soc. Again, Crito, may we do evil?

Cr. Surely not, Socrates.

Soc. And what of doing evil in return for evil, which is the morality of the many-is that just or not?

Cr. Not just.

Soc. For doing evil to another is the same as injuring him?

Cr. Very true.

Soc. Then we ought not to retaliate or render evil for evil to anyone, whatever evil we may have suffered from him. But I would have you consider, Crito, whether you really mean what you are saying. For this opinion has never been held, and never will be held, by any considerable number of persons; and those who are agreed and those who are not agreed upon this point have no common ground, and can only despise one another, when they see how widely they differ. Tell me, then, whether you agree with and assent to my first principle, that neither injury nor retaliation nor warding off evil by evil is ever right. And shall that be the premise of our agreement? Or do you decline and dissent from this? For this has been of old and is still my opinion; but, if you are of another opinion, let me hear what you have to say. If, however, you remain of the same mind as formerly, I will proceed to the next step.

Cr. You may proceed, for I have not changed my mind.

Soc. Then I will proceed to the next step, which may be put in the form of a question: Ought a man to do what he admits to be right, or ought he to betray the right?

Cr. He ought to do what he thinks right.

Soc. But if this is true, what is the application? In leaving the prison against the will of the Athenians, do I wrong any? or rather do I not wrong those whom I ought least to wrong? Do I not desert the principles which were acknowledged by us to be just? What do you say?

Cr. I cannot tell, Socrates, for I do not know.

Soc. Then consider the matter in this way: Imagine that I am about to play truant (you may call the proceeding by any name which you like), and the laws and the government come and interrogate me: "Tell us, Socrates," they say; "what are you about? are you going by an act of yours to overturn us- the laws and the whole State, as far as in you lies? Do you imagine that a State can subsist and not be overthrown, in which the decisions of law have no power, but are set aside and overthrown by individuals?" What will be our answer, Crito, to these and the like words? Anyone, and especially a clever rhetorician, will have a good deal to urge about the evil of setting aside the law which requires a sentence to be carried out; and we might reply, "Yes; but the State has injured us and given an unjust sentence." Suppose I say that?

Cr. Very good, Socrates.

Soc. "And was that our agreement with you?" the law would say, "or were you to abide by the sentence of the State?" And if I were to express astonishment at their saying this, the law would probably add: "Answer, Socrates, instead of opening your eyes: you are in the habit of asking and answering questions. Tell us what complaint you have to make against us which justifies you in attempting to destroy us and the State? In the first place did we not bring you into existence? Your father married your mother by our aid and begat you. Say whether you have any objection to urge against those of us who regulate marriage?" None, I should reply. "Or against those of us who regulate the system of nurture and education of children in which you were trained? Were not the laws, who have the charge of this, right in commanding your father to train you in music and gymnastic?" Right, I should reply. "Well, then, since you were brought into the world and nurtured and educated by us, can you deny in the first place that you are our child and slave, as your fathers were before you? And if this is true you are not on equal terms with us; nor can you think that you have a right to do to us what we are doing to you. Would you have any right to strike or revile or do any other evil to a father or to your master, if you had one, when you have been struck or reviled by him, or received some other evil at his hands?- you would not say this? And because we think right to destroy you, do you think that you have any right to destroy us in return, and your country as far as in you lies? And will you, O professor of true virtue, say that you are justified in this? Has a philosopher like you failed to discover that our country is more to be valued and higher and holier far than mother or father or any ancestor, and more to be regarded in the eyes of the gods and of men of understanding? also to be soothed, and gently and reverently entreated when angry, even more than a father, and if not persuaded, obeyed? And when we are punished by her, whether with imprisonment or stripes, the punishment is to be endured in silence; and if she leads us to wounds or death in battle, thither we follow as is right; neither may anyone yield or retreat or leave his rank, but whether in battle or in a court of law, or in any other place, he must do what his city and his country order him; or he must change their view of what is just: and if he may do no violence to his father or mother, much less may he do violence to his country." What answer shall we make to this, Crito? Do the laws speak truly, or do they not?

Cr. I think that they do. 

Soc. Then the laws will say: "Consider, Socrates, if this is true, that in your present attempt you are going to do us wrong. For, after having brought you into the world, and nurtured and educated you, and given you and every other citizen a share in every good that we had to give, we further proclaim and give the right to every Athenian, that if he does not like us when he has come of age and has seen the ways of the city, and made our acquaintance, he may go where he pleases and take his goods with him; and none of us laws will forbid him or interfere with him. Any of you who does not like us and the city, and who wants to go to a colony or to any other city, may go where he likes, and take his goods with him. But he who has experience of the manner in which we order justice and administer the State, and still remains, has entered into an implied contract that he will do as we command him. And he who disobeys us is, as we maintain, thrice wrong: first, because in disobeying us he is disobeying his parents; secondly, because we are the authors of his education; thirdly, because he has made an agreement with us that he will duly obey our commands; and he neither obeys them nor convinces us that our commands are wrong; and we do not rudely impose them, but give him the alternative of obeying or convincing us; that is what we offer and he does neither. These are the sort of accusations to which, as we were saying, you, Socrates, will be exposed if you accomplish your intentions; you, above all other Athenians." Suppose I ask, why is this? they will justly retort upon me that I above all other men have acknowledged the agreement. "There is clear proof," they will say, "Socrates, that we and the city were not displeasing to you. Of all Athenians you have been the most constant resident in the city, which, as you never leave, you may be supposed to love. For you never went out of the city either to see the games, except once when you went to the Isthmus, or to any other place unless when you were on military service; nor did you travel as other men do. Nor had you any curiosity to know other States or their laws: your affections did not go beyond us and our State; we were your especial favorites, and you acquiesced in our government of you; and this is the State in which you begat your children, which is a proof of your satisfaction. Moreover, you might, if you had liked, have fixed the penalty at banishment in the course of the trial-the State which refuses to let you go now would have let you go then. But you pretended that you preferred death to exile, and that you were not grieved at death. And now you have forgotten these fine sentiments, and pay no respect to us, the laws, of whom you are the destroyer; and are doing what only a miserable slave would do, running away and turning your back upon the compacts and agreements which you made as a citizen. And first of all answer this very question: Are we right in saying that you agreed to be governed according to us in deed, and not in word only? Is that true or not?" How shall we answer that, Crito? Must we not agree?

Cr. There is no help, Socrates.

Soc. Then will they not say: "You, Socrates, are breaking the covenants and agreements which you made with us at your leisure, not in any haste or under any compulsion or deception, but having had seventy years to think of them, during which time you were at liberty to leave the city, if we were not to your mind, or if our covenants appeared to you to be unfair. You had your choice, and might have gone either to Lacedaemon or Crete, which you often praise for their good government, or to some other Hellenic or foreign State. Whereas you, above all other Athenians, seemed to be so fond of the State, or, in other words, of us her laws (for who would like a State that has no laws?), that you never stirred out of her: the halt, the blind, the maimed, were not more stationary in her than you were. And now you run away and forsake your agreements. Not so, Socrates, if you will take our advice; do not make yourself ridiculous by escaping out of the city. 

"For just consider, if you transgress and err in this sort of way, what good will you do, either to yourself or to your friends? That your friends will be driven into exile and deprived of citizenship, or will lose their property, is tolerably certain; and you yourself, if you fly to one of the neighboring cities, as, for example, Thebes or Megara, both of which are well-governed cities, will come to them as an enemy, Socrates, and their government will be against you, and all patriotic citizens will cast an evil eye upon you as a subverter of the laws, and you will confirm in the minds of the judges the justice of their own condemnation of you. For he who is a corrupter of the laws is more than likely to be corrupter of the young and foolish portion of mankind. Will you then flee from well-ordered cities and virtuous men? and is existence worth having on these terms? Or will you go to them without shame, and talk to them, Socrates? And what will you say to them? What you say here about virtue and justice and institutions and laws being the best things among men? Would that be decent of you? Surely not. But if you go away from well-governed States to Crito's friends in Thessaly, where there is great disorder and license, they will be charmed to have the tale of your escape from prison, set off with ludicrous particulars of the manner in which you were wrapped in a goatskin or some other disguise, and metamorphosed as the fashion of runaways is- that is very likely; but will there be no one to remind you that in your old age you violated the most sacred laws from a miserable desire of a little more life? Perhaps not, if you keep them in a good temper; but if they are out of temper you will hear many degrading things; you will live, but how?- as the flatterer of all men, and the servant of all men; and doing what?- eating and drinking in Thessaly, having gone abroad in order that you may get a dinner. And where will be your fine sentiments about justice and virtue then? Say that you wish to live for the sake of your children, that you may bring them up and educate them- will you take them into Thessaly and deprive them of Athenian citizenship? Is that the benefit which you would confer upon them? Or are you under the impression that they will be better cared for and educated here if you are still alive, although absent from them; for that your friends will take care of them? Do you fancy that if you are an inhabitant of Thessaly they will take care of them, and if you are an inhabitant of the other world they will not take care of them? Nay; but if they who call themselves friends are truly friends, they surely will. 

"Listen, then, Socrates, to us who have brought you up. Think not of life and children first, and of justice afterwards, but of justice first, that you may be justified before the princes of the world below. For neither will you nor any that belong to you be happier or holier or juster in this life, or happier in another, if you do as Crito bids. Now you depart in innocence, a sufferer and not a doer of evil; a victim, not of the laws, but of men. But if you go forth, returning evil for evil, and injury for injury, breaking the covenants and agreements which you have made with us, and wronging those whom you ought least to wrong, that is to say, yourself, your friends, your country, and us, we shall be angry with you while you live, and our brethren, the laws in the world below, will receive you as an enemy; for they will know that you have done your best to destroy us. Listen, then, to us and not to Crito." 

This is the voice which I seem to hear murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, and prevents me from hearing any other. And I know that anything more which you will say will be in vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. 

Cr. I have nothing to say, Socrates. 

Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of God. 

THE END

Crito

[Outshined]

Well, they executed him. Not because he was "a person of 'race' in a white world" (ridiculous claim, by the way), but because he murdered four people and was sentenced to die for that crime. It's a bit childish to pretend members here will be happy about it.

Williams was condemned in 1981 for gunning down convenience store clerk Albert Owens, 26, at a 7-Eleven in Whittier and killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple's daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Williams claimed he was innocent.

Witnesses at the trial said Williams boasted about the killings, stating "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes, according to the transcript that the governor referenced in his denial of clemency.

I don't know if he was really "different" or just playing the system. Though he claimed to despise gang violence, he refused to help police disband his gang, and refused to cooperate with them on it, even refusing to name any gang members.

Oddly, he had less problem with facing his sentence than the critics.

In the days leading up to his execution, Williams' supporters and opponents appeared to be more occupied with his fate than he was.

“Me fearing what I’m facing, what possible good is it going to do for me? How is that going to benefit me?” Williams said in a recent interview. “If it’s my time to be executed, what’s all the ranting and raving going to do?”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10355657/page/2

Anyway, like it or not, he is dead.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Dec 12 2005, 08:14 PM

I agree.  Being in prison for life without parole is worse than death, from what I have heard about our prison system.  It is basically a sentence to be attacked and raped by other inmates, while the guards look the other way.  This may go on for years.  When it ends, the psychological damage it does to you will be a living hell for the remaining decades of your life. 

One might consider that to be justice...if the purpose of prison is for a criminal to suffer...

That's just it; I believe life without parole should be solitary, with no contact with other prisoners, no television, computers, weight rooms, or movies.

[sgallan]

Anyway, like it or not, he is dead.

And you seem happy about it. Go figure. Something I'll bring up when discussing the so-called religious values of conservative religions in my discussions with the little one.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 13 2005, 06:49 AM

Anyway, like it or not, he is dead.

And you seem happy about it. Go figure. Something I'll bring up when discussing the so-called religious values of conservative religions in my discussions with the little one.

←

Perhaps you can show where I've indicated that I'm "happy" about it? He murdered four people, laughed about it, and was sentenced to death. Sad but true. I would have been as content if he'd spent the next thirty years in solitary. He was a murderer.

Seems you may be looking for a reason to complain. You have quite a penchant for projecting your anger and hatred of religion on others.

Get over it.

[shanstress70]

Goodbye, Tookie, and good riddance!

"Witnesses at the trial said he boasted about the killings, stating "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes..."

[Outshined]

It was the sentence he received, and they carried it out. End of story as far as I am concerned.

[shanstress70]

One more thing... I think some forget that he was co-founder of the Crips around 1969. Think of how many lives have been lost as a direct or indirect result of that gang. Think of how many mothers had to mourn the loss of their sons because of this piece of #$@%. I'd say he helped far fewer than he hurt in his lifetime. Too little, too late buddy!

For the record, my beliefs in regard to this have nothing to do with religion. I'm not LDS, or a member of any organized religion right now. I just think this was a hideous man who committed hideous crimes, and the world is a better place without him.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Dec 13 2005, 07:14 AM

One more thing... I think some forget that he was co-founder of the Crips around 1969.  Think of how many lives have been lost as a direct or indirect result of that gang.  Think of how many mothers had to mourn the loss of their sons because of this piece of #$@%.  I'd say he helped far fewer than he hurt in his lifetime. 

←

True, and he refused to help the police with that. Countless lives have been damaged or destroyed (and continue to be) because of his actions. His stance against gangs seems to have been lip-service in attempt to avoid the death sentence.

[sgallan]

Seems you may be looking for a reason to complain. You have quite a penchant for projecting your anger and hatred of religion on others.

Since you seem to like generalities.... what is your opinion of the kind of Islam Osama practices? If you do not like it should I therefore make the broad generality that you hate religion? Or perhaps it is just a specific religion.

Get over it.

Why don't you follow your own advice?

[sgallan]

FWIW, I was a supporter of the death penalty. But to see how blood thirsty, and vengeful, so many in this nation are, I am not so sure anymore....

[Outshined]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 13 2005, 07:26 AM

Get over it.

Why don't you follow your own advice?

←

I have no problems; you're the one complaining about a murderer's sentence being carried out and attacking all who dare disagree with your views. I note you have yet to show where I said I was "happy" that he was executed.

And yes, you have anger issues.

[sgallan]

I note you have yet to show where I said I was "happy" that he was executed.

You don't have to say it.... it's an attitude.

And yes, you have anger issues.

Ironic coming from you, isn't it?

[Outshined]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 13 2005, 07:28 AM

FWIW, I was a supporter of the death penalty. But to see how blood thirsty, and vengeful, so many in this nation are, I am not so sure anymore....

←

You mean like Williams, who murdered four innocent people, laughed about it, and never showed any remorse for it?

Yes, that is bloodthirsty.

[sgallan]

You mean like Williams, who murdered four innocent people, laughed about it, and never showed any remorse for it?

Yes, that is bloodthirsty.

Yeah exactly.... you and him should have been homies.... both want to see people get killed.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 13 2005, 07:31 AM

I note you have yet to show where I said I was "happy" that he was executed.

You don't have to say it.... it's an attitude.

In other words, you were making a false assumption and need to rationalize it.

And yes, you have anger issues.

Ironic coming from you, isn't it?

←

Not at all. Sorry if the truth rubs you the wrong way... B)

[Outshined]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 13 2005, 07:34 AM

Yeah exactly.... you and him should have been homies.... both want to see people get killed.

←

More unfounded assertion. Very brave; at least you aren't afraid to display your ignorance.

[sgallan]

at least you aren't afraid to display your ignorance.

More irony....

[Outshined]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 13 2005, 07:38 AM

at least you aren't afraid to display your ignorance.

More irony....

←

Umm, yeah...

[sgallan]

Umm, yeah...

I am glad we are in agreement then.....

[Outshined]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 13 2005, 07:40 AM

Umm, yeah...

I am glad we are in agreement then.....

←

If we're agreeing that your assertions about the people here are baseless and immature, then of course! Reason seems a bit much to ask of your posts.

We'll be waiting breathlessly for an intelligent post rather than your usual blind attacks.