Arnold Should Not Grant Him Clemency!

[sgallan]

Finian -

Since you took the time for a post longer than a sentence or two it's only polite to respond.

First, nice psych exam. Can't pay you though.

This was actually the first board I ever posted on. 1999 if memory serves. But much like the ol' family wasn't a good fit in the LDS faith, I find myself no longer a good fit on religious boards in general. As a rule they are not real tolerant of non-religious types...... as non-religious types are not real tolerant of religious right types. So the board addiction doesn't get fed with the religous sites much anymore. Every now and again it's interesting to wander to one and remember why. Lasted 15 days this time. That's actually pretty good.

[Josie]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 14 2005, 01:41 PM

Basically I am reading y'all don't want my kind around.

I am cool with that.

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Sgallan, I respect your opinion and your right to disagree. That is the whole idea here. If we did not have different opinions we could not learn from one another and we could not grow. I understand your position, even If I do not agree with it, and appreciate your willingness to help us atleast take a different look at things.

I hope you stick around and continue to express your opinion. We are all different, the world would be very boring, if we all believed the same thing and wanted the same things in life.

[sgallan]

While it is doubtful your sentiments are shared by the majority of this board - nothing much has changed hear in about five years and is probably why the board is relatively slow - they are nice to hear. Thanks. :)

[Setheus]

Well if you kids are done with your pointless noise I had a thought that goes back to the original topic of this thread

The idea that we as a nation are "blood thirsty" for executing this man.....well, what about the due process of law and the 25 years of appeals etc....I cant think of anything thirsty for blood allowing a man to live that long if all they wanted was fresh meat.

Blood thirsty is the crowd that demanded Jesus be crucified.

[lisajo]

Originally posted by Setheus@Dec 14 2005, 05:47 PM

Well if you kids are done with your pointless noise I had a thought that goes back to the original topic of this thread

The idea that we as a nation are "blood thirsty" for executing this man.....well, what about the due process of law and the 25 years of appeals etc....I cant think of anything thirsty for blood allowing a man to live that long if all they wanted was fresh meat.

Blood thirsty is the crowd that demanded Jesus be crucified.

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AHHHHHHh Seth i agree with you there?

[Faerie]

so what happened to the riots and innocent killed due to tookie being put down? eh?

i miss this board

[sgallan]

so what happened to the riots and innocent killed due to tookie being put down? eh?

(sigh) No doubt. What a bunch of panzies.... I was kind of looking forward to having something to watch on the news. (sigh)

[Setheus]

Squallan, are you a vampire calling us blood thirsty? LOL

[sgallan]

Hmm, speaking of blood. Need some breakfast.

Here kitty, kitty....

[Guest sugarbay]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Dec 11 2005, 02:57 PM

Lauraltree, seeing that you are one of the moderators here goes:

http://www.capitalideasblog.com/

Not nearly as graphic as some of the stuff at Mike Savage's site, but don't open if you have a weak stomach.

background information:

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

←

It's a moot point now. The guy is toast. The scrioputres do support capital punishment. Let's not judge him but pray that he will embrace the gospel and get on with his progression. We don't know that he will be forgiven and we don't know that he won't. He is still our brother and we should pray that he will repent and we should try to keep an eternal eye open. I appreciate the autopsy photos. Man's inhumanity to man. But, let's remember to pray for this man who did this and also remember that without justice there can be no mercy.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

It's a moot point now.

Not really...the thread can continue as a debate on Capital Punishment, even if Tookie is dead.

The guy is toast.

If you are LDS, don't you mean that he is in Spirit Prison, being taught the Gospel?

The scriptures do support capital punishment.

Well the Koran, Old Testament and LDS Scriptures support it.

I don't think the New Testament supports it.

And most Buddhists do not support it.

I realize this is an LDS message board but alot of people in this thread are giving their non-LDS opinion.

Note: I mentioned a few days ago that...as a Buddhist...I would be confused about Capital Punishment because it promotes suffering...but also relieves suffering, if you consider life in Prison to be suffering.

But after reading some other Buddhist perspectives on it, I realize I am more opposed to Capital Punishment. I'll give a quote as to why when I can find it...

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Setheus@Dec 13 2005, 08:48 PM

I dont know if I'd call an "eternal sleep" a good thing.  I mean, I've been unconcious and if thats what death is then dont you think its a terrible thought?  The horror is that you cease to exist.  I would rather feel pain than to feel nothing.

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Unconscious is different I think...you can dream I would assume. I've never been unconscious so I don't know if it feels like a bad thing, or if it is just like sleep. Sleep can be good or bad, depending on the dreams.

As for non-existence...it is beyond good or bad, pleasure or pain, and even fear. When you cease to exist, there is no mind to suffer, or fear. That is a liberation.

But as I mentioned in my last post...even though death can be a liberation, I still do not think it is a good punishment for murderers, as long as we are able to keep society safe without the Death Penalty (life in prison with no parole).

But we can agree to disagree :)

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

A few comments on Capital Punishment from my online Buddhist community.

yes i believe there would be great suffering in prison.....the Buddha said that only with experiencing suffering can we want to be free from it, the precious human rebirth is special because it allows us to experience suffering and then apply antidotes to be free from it....

where as in any of the other realms this is very difficult..so should we be so quick to want to give up this precious life...for me again no we can not guarantee our rebirth as being favorable so let us make the most of this life.....

Note that by REBIRTH, Buddhists do not necessarily mean "reincarnation"...they also mean the rebirth from moment to moment that we experience in this life...every moment, you are different (if only in some small way) from the way you were in the previous moment...thus life is a continuous series of rebirths until you die.

A significant rebirth would be like the Christian concept of "born again" or a baptism.

Whether you are then reborn in another body is something that some Buddhists believe and others do not, and is irrelevant to this topic.

So what he is saying is that by executing the criminal, he is not learning from his suffering in prison...and not being given the opportunity for a rebirth (the chance to be born again in this same life) as a better person and therefore reduce his own suffering and those around him.

If you deny that such a person has the right to such a rebirth, then the Death Penalty is simply a form of revenge.

It was Ghandi who said that an eye for an eye only makes the entire world blind.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Another quote:

I think that neither choice really has more suffering, since sufering and its causes are inherent in the mind of the criminal either way.

Still, life in prison gives the prisoner the oppurtunity to reform somewhat and if the prisoner choses, the ability to change their attitudes.

I don't think that the prisoner should be given that choice (though they already have it if you consider suicide) between life and death, on the basis that their human life still holds the chance for benefit and the executioner isn't in the best position.

And this quote was supposedly from the Dalai Lama:

His Holiness, Tenzin Gyatso, The Fourteenth Dalai Lama

MESSAGE SUPPORTING THE MORATORIUM ON THE

DEATH PENALTY

In general, death is something none of us wants, in fact it is something we don't even like to think about. When death takes place naturally, it is a process beyond our control to stop, but where death is willfully and deliberately brought about, it is very unfortunate. Of course, within our legal systems there are said to be certain reasons and purposes for employing the death penalty. It is used to punish offenders, to prevent them ever repeating their misdeed and to deter others. However, if we examine the situation more carefully, we will find that these are not the real solutions.

Harmful actions and their tragic consequences all have their origin in disturbing emotions and negative thoughts, and these are a state of mind, whose potential we find within all human beings. From this point of view, every one of us has the potential to commit crimes, because we are all subject to negative disturbing emotions and negative mental qualities. And we will not overcome these by executing other people.

What is deemed criminal can vary greatly from country to country. In some countries, for example, speaking out for human rights is considered criminal, whereas in other countries preventing free speech is a crime. The punishments for crimes are also very different, but usually include various forms of imprisonment or hardship, financial penalties and, in a number of countries, physical pain. In some countries, crimes that the government considers very serious are punished by executing the person who committed the crime.

The death penalty fulfills a preventive function, but it is also very clearly a form of revenge. It is an especially severe form of punishment because it is so final. The human life is ended and the executed person is deprived of the opportunity to change, to restore the harm done or compensate for it. Before advocating execution we should consider whether criminals are intrinsically negative and harmful people or whether they will remain perpetually in the same state of mind in which they committed their crime or not. The answer, I believe, is definitely not. However horrible the act they have committed, I believe that everyone has the potential to improve and correct themselves. Therefore, I am optimistic that it remains possible to deter criminal activity, and prevent such harmful consequences of such acts in society, without having to resort to the death penalty.

My overriding belief is that it is always possible for criminals to improve and that by its very finality the death penalty contradicts this. Therefore, I support those organizations and individuals who are trying to bring an end to the use of the death penalty.

Today, in many societies very little importance is placed on education or the development of human values through social programs and entertainment. In fact, if we take television programming as an example, violence, including killing, is regarded as having a high entertainment value. This is indicative of how misguided we have become.

I believe human beings are not violent by nature. Unlike lions and tigers, we are not naturally equipped to kill with sharp teeth and claws. From a Buddhist viewpoint, I believe that the basic nature of every sentient being is pure, that the deeper nature of mind is something pure. Human beings become violent because of negative thoughts which arise as a result of their environment and circumstances.

I wholeheartedly support an appeal to those countries who at present employ the death penalty to observe an unconditional moratorium. At the same time we should give more support to education and encourage a greater sense of universal responsibility. We need to explain the importance of the practice of love and compassion for our own survival and to try to minimize those conditions which foster murderous tendencies, such as the proliferation of weapons in our societies. These are things even private individuals can work towards.

Tenzin Gyatso

[Fiannan]

How many people in and out of prison are at risk of being killed by Tookie at this time?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Another quote:

Another thing which most people have not yet figured out in the criminal justice system, paticularly in relation to gangs is that death penalties make certain crimes sexier because they carry more risk.

Among such communities, taking on such risks is a sign of power and bravery-- another issue is that most of these young guys are suprised if they make it to 21 let alone 30 years of age. For such young men, threat of death is nothing at all, since they risk their lives daily just by being in gangs and engaging in gang activities.

What has not been mentioned is that these young people regularly sentence each other to die, and carry out said excecutions-- what we refer to as "gangland slayings."

There is no way that our justice can be more brutal than theirs.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Dec 16 2005, 11:46 AM

How many people in and out of prison are at risk of being killed by Tookie at this time?

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None...he is dead.

However, if Tookie were alive, and kept in solitary confinement, with no parole...we would still be safe from Tookie, and so would all the people in prison who might fear him.

[Fiannan]

And if such a life is worse than death, why did Tookie fight so hard to get away from execution?

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Dec 16 2005, 12:55 PM

And if such a life is worse than death, why did Tookie fight so hard to get away from execution?

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Because he wasn't serving in solitary; he still had access to the general prison population, computers, television, drugs, etc...

That's why I say it should be a solitary life without those luxuries.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Dec 16 2005, 11:55 AM

And if such a life is worse than death, why did Tookie fight so hard to get away from execution?

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Maybe because he realized life was worth living and truly wanted to change his ways.

Or if he never really changed his ways, he probably just feared death.

In our culture we are taught to fear death...this is why we have religion. Unfortunately most Christian religions are telling him that he will be in Hell when he dies...so it is no wonder he was scared.

Of if he does not believe in Hell, maybe he (like Setheus) fears the idea of non-existence.

In reality (if one doesn't believe in Hell)...death is a liberation from suffering.

But I think that the state should give him the chance to be "reborn" in this life, by educating him...as long as he is kept away from people he might harm.

Killing him, or leaving him to rot in prison for life with no rehabilitation would only lead to more suffering...which is pointless unless we want revenge.

But we don't want revenge, do we? That is not Christ-like...

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Outshined+Dec 16 2005, 12:16 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Fiannan@Dec 16 2005, 12:55 PM

And if such a life is worse than death, why did Tookie fight so hard to get away from execution?

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Because he wasn't serving in solitary; he still had access to the general prison population, computers, television, drugs, etc...

That's why I say it should be a solitary life without those luxuries.

←

I agree, but do you think it should also include education, on the chance that he can truly be reformed?

Or do you think the solitary life should be used to further his suffering as a form of revenge?

[Fiannan]

He murdered 4 people in cold blood. That settles it in my books. He was given a fair trial, appeals and in the end even Arnold said he had to pay the price.

[sgallan]

He murdered 4 people in cold blood.

The blood would have been warm at the time of the murder.....

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Dec 16 2005, 02:02 PM

He murdered 4 people in cold blood.  That settles it in my books.  He was given a fair trial, appeals and in the end even Arnold said he had to pay the price.

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That settles it in your book, and Arnold's book...

Perhaps Mohammad, Moses, and Brigham Young would agree with this punishment...but would Jesus? Would Jesus stand by and watch someone executed? In the Bible, Jesus tended to stand up for sinners...to let God judge them...

I agree he deserved justice.

I agree that according to our system of Law, he recieved a fair trial (hopefully) and was sentenced according to our Law.

(although according to our law, Arnold could have spared his life, without contradicting any laws)

But that is behind us.

What I suggest is that going forward, I hope the law will be changed because although I obey the law, I believe it can be improved to give a better form of justice to criminals like this.

[Fiannan]

He murdered 4 people in cold blood.

The blood would have been warm at the time of the murder.....

Eew, sgallan I cannot even believe you would say such a thing.

Taoist Saint, I understand what you are saying, but I will note that Jesus never actually condemned the use of the death penalty -- just its use as a method to punish someone for sins that the persons holding the rocks had actually taken part in themselves. I do not believe Arnold or any member of the California criminal justice system that sentenced Tookie has ever committed murder.