Christian Values

[sgallan]

Many of you folks suggest your religion is somehow for the good. Or could make you a better person. And so on. But every now and then a thread comes up.... like the clemency one..... where I don't see it. I see a viciousness that reminds me very much like that of the people who would kill us. Just a different religion.

So tell me. I am raising a gifted 10 year old in a secular environment. Not even have a Bible in the house. I suspect she will end up a godless type just as is her dear ol' dad. What value is within your religious beliefs - save protection from some bad and entirely unprovable hereafter - for my child that she isn't already getting from me.

[Fiannan]

I've known people from families like your's -- the kids generally become fundamentalists.

[sgallan]

I've known people from families like your's -- the kids generally become fundamentalists.

Yeah, I hear that all of the time. It's the arrogance of religion view. But the numbers don't bear it out. This is especially truly if the parents are good ones. Generally the kids adopt the views of their parents. If they didn't there'd be a heck of a lot more non-believers. Given I spend most of my time helping others, through coaching and teaching.... yeah even teaching inmates.... and even protected the kid from a drug addicted mother.... thus becoming a Mr. Mom, she'll be raised with those kinds values.

One thing for sure...... it beats the value of nothing to add except for pithy comments which is apparently all you have.

[Fiannan]

People will still yearn for God despite the obsticles a parent can place there -- in fact, I'll bet if you are an exceptional parent your child will be even more likely to seek religion.

Many people don't fear their own death, but fear the thought of a loved one just ceasing to exist. It is something the human mind cannot comprehend (non-existence) and so go ahead a be a great parent -- that may pave the way for your own child's salvation.

Also, in a classical Freudian sense Freud said the image we have of God is based on the image we have of our father. So be a great parent, love your child and make sacrifices for him/her. Not only will the child be grateful, but the religion the child seeks will probably be one with good values.

[sgallan]

People will still yearn for God despite the obsticles a parent can place there -- in fact, I'll bet if you are an exceptional parent your child will be even more likely to seek religion.

Ah, but I am smarter than that. I won't tell her she "can't" be religious. As a matter of fact as long as it doesn't harm her or anybody else (and she is under my roof) she is free to choose any religion she wants now. Go to church. And all of that. I even drove her once a couple of years ago. And what a selection choice she has. She is a little diest at the moment. Mom is a Christian. Granma is B'hai. Another granma is a liberal Christian (female Pastor). And her dad, one granpa and a Uncle are non-believers. None attend church.She comes from a family of non-convention and/or non-believers.

Many people don't fear their own death, but fear the thought of a loved one just ceasing to exist. It is something the human mind cannot comprehend (non-existence) and so go ahead a be a great parent -- that may pave the way for your own child's salvation.

Also, in a classical Freudian sense Freud said the image we have of God is based on the image we have of our father. So be a great parent, love your child and make sacrifices for him/her. Not only will the child be grateful, but the religion the child seeks will probably be one with good values.

You never know. But I doubt it. With the way she is being raised. The non-convention of the family. The fact we have good values now. And the various lessons I give her on religion..... comparative religions with none being more special than another.... I think I can educate away from a formal belief. Diesm maybe if she really has those genetics but so far she is a chip off the old block.

You still haven't answered my questions though.

Edited because I need to proof before I submit!

[Justlooking]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 10 2005, 04:08 PM

Many of you folks suggest your religion is somehow for the good. Or could make you a better person. And so on. But every now and then a thread comes up.... like the clemency one..... where I don't see it. I see a viciousness that reminds me very much like that of the people who would kill us. Just a different religion.

So tell me. I am raising a gifted 10 year old in a secular environment. Not even have a Bible in the house. I suspect she will end up a godless type just as is her dear ol' dad. What value is within your religious beliefs - save protection from some bad and entirely unprovable hereafter - for my child that she isn't already getting from me.

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How do you know what Godless is if you dont even own a bible?

Perhaps you are being a bit too hard on yourself.

Check out what the bible teaches and see for yourself if it is good or not. That is the only way to find out. Dont listen to what people think about God, find out what God says in Bible :)

God bless :)

[sgallan]

JustLooking -

I've read the OT three times. The NT five times.

I had a Bible but I am in the process of trying to clear out stuff for a move (long story). Bible got donated.

How come nobody is answering the questions? :)

Just to put a face to the questions.... here is a pic of the kid having a moment with an Olympic gold medalist from Egypt a couple of years ago. He took a liking to her. She is a bit of a young prodigy in that sport herself beating up the boys (most of them anyhow as she's 4 time state champion) and the girls (2-time national champion). Pretty smart too.....

http://www.amateurwrestlingphotos.com/meng...aber%200089.htm

[prisonchaplain]

How come nobody is answering the questions?  :)

Just to put a face to the questions.... here is a pic of the kid having a moment with an Olympic gold medalist from Egypt a couple of years ago. He took a liking to her. She is a bit of a young prodigy in that sport herself beating up the boys (most of them anyhow as she's 4 time state champion) and the girls (2-time national champion). Pretty smart too.....

http://www.amateurwrestlingphotos.com/meng...aber%200089.htm

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First, it's no wonder you're proud. She does look active, attractive and smart--almost as wonderful as my 3 cherubs

Second, THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION: This is actually quite simple. If there is no God, or God has left us to our own devices, or God is unknowable, or even if the LDS Church is right, and almost everyone gets into some type of heaven, then you're probably right--religion has very little to offer your child, that you do not already provide her. However, if Christians are right, and there is a definite Way that a personal God is calling his creation to, then we offer your sign posts assisting your discovery of that path. Furthermore, the LDS would tell you, why settle for a decent heaven, when you could spend eternity in exaltation?

It's not a matter of arrogance or humility, or who does the most volunteer work, or who has the best personality. It's who's right. The Apostle Paul admits that if there is no resurrection, then Christians are the most pathetic people in the world. So, we're either pathetic, or we are saved, Spirit-filled, and headed for eternal glory.

[Winnie G]

I have to say your post interested me.

Every time someone makes a deal out of gracing me with his presence with the sentence “I am a Christian” I think “really or do you profuse it or do you live it”?

A real Christian cares enough to act like one and to allow others to be who they are.

This comes from an up bringing in a family that is multi faiths.

Those who profuse the hardest lost the most respect in my book.

They missed many family gatherings by not being invited.

Bible pounding zealous are a black eye to Christ him self and I stand by that.

I mean really, why would our father in heaven bring his son in to a family of the Jewish faith then in turn ask others to disrespect them?

My step – father was Jewish and my was mother Episcopalian.

The wisest words I ever heard in my house were. “There are ten roads to get you to Chicago all get you there some just take longer then other” (mother)

Having a stepfather a Holocaust survivor gave me and those that know him such insight.

Respect for others faith was drilled home to me by his actions and deeds that I cannot even number.

I miss my family a grate deal but I would not trade were I live with them.

For a country that professes it, self as “The Melting Pot” there lives an underground of intolerance. American and have the same rights as those bore generations ago or have immigrated from other lands.

A case in point is the right to worship. Let us look at General conference. Those who profess being Christians browbeat and scream at families out side of there place of worship. They wrap them self’s in the constitution and the flag.

Christian Yah please.

I know I have repeated this before but again north of this grate country federal law would mark this as a hate crime and jail time the answer.

I joined the LDS faith because of it understanding that Jews had respect (BOM) and the freedom for others to worship as they see fit. My Jewish relatives have more respect for my faith then those who call them self’s Christian’s and force their do it or burn policy.

If you do not ask your self “what would Jesus do” with understanding and tolerance then your not a Christian.

[prisonchaplain]

WinnieG says: I have to say your post interested me.

Every time someone makes a deal out of gracing me with his presence with the sentence “I am a Christian” I think “really or do you profuse it or do you live it”?

Jesus told us to do both--not to be ashamed of him, to be ready to give an answer for our faith, yet at the same time to love our neighbor, love our enemy, pray for those who despitefully use us, etc.

A real Christian cares enough to act like one and to allow others to be who they are.

Yes, we should act like Christians. However, to allow others to be who they are? The apostles would not have had to go to all the trouble of getting martyred, if that's all God wanted us to do. Of course, we cannot force God on anyone. However, I will not be ashamed to proclaim "the offense of the cross," even if it sometimes offends.

On the other hand, I always hope I can disagree without being disagreeable. And, I never want to force a religious conversation on someone who just isn't interested. And, yes, I can have good friends who do not believe as I do. So, please don't pigeon-hole all Christians as hate-filled bigots.

This comes from an up bringing in a family that is multi faiths.

Those who profuse the hardest lost the most respect in my book.

They missed many family gatherings by not being invited.

Bible pounding zealous are a black eye to Christ him self and I stand by that.

A jerk is a jerk, regardless of faith. However, to fault someone for having strong religious beliefs requires little courage. Far easier to say, "Live and let live" than to engage one another in conversation, and perhaps learn from each other. I appreciate this forum because Mormons gather with agnostics, evangelicals, lutherans and others, and engage in challenging, yet mostly polite religious conversation. How refreshing!

I mean really, why would our father in heaven bring his son in to a family of the Jewish faith then in turn ask others to disrespect them?

I don't disrespect Jews at all. I highly admire their devotion to God--especially how the Orthodox observe all 613 basic commandments of the Torah. However, I respectfully disagree with the Talmud's declaration that Jesus was a false prophet, just as Mormons strongly disagree with the position of many evangelicals that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. You can say "10-ways to heaven" all you want. Either Jews or Christians are right about Jesus, and either Mormons or evangelicals are right about Joseph Smith. We may all end up in the same place, but does it not behoove us to at least attempt to understand God's truths. Is it so offensive to even suggest that one person's notions may be superior to anothers?

If you do not ask your self “what would Jesus do” with understanding and tolerance then your not a Christian.

Just so long as we keep in mind that this same Jesus did say: Take up your cross and follow ME.

[Justlooking]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 10 2005, 08:16 PM

JustLooking -

I've read the OT three times. The NT five times. 

I had a Bible but I am in the process of trying to clear out stuff for a move (long story). Bible got donated.

How come nobody is answering the questions?  :)

Just to put a face to the questions.... here is a pic of the kid having a moment with an Olympic gold medalist from Egypt a couple of years ago. He took a liking to her. She is a bit of a young prodigy in that sport herself beating up the boys (most of them anyhow as she's 4 time state champion) and the girls (2-time national champion). Pretty smart too.....

http://www.amateurwrestlingphotos.com/meng...aber%200089.htm

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Congratulations on your child. :)

Ok, since you have read the bible, so how do you define yourself as godless?

[sgallan]

Furthermore, the LDS would tell you, why settle for a decent heaven, when you could spend eternity in exaltation?

It is just a book to me and I do not believe in a God. Not even a little. :)

[sgallan]

That was a really nice post Winnie. Right there I saw value in your faith.

[sgallan]

Good answer Preacher. :) In answer to the question below....

Furthermore, the LDS would tell you, why settle for a decent heaven, when you could spend eternity in exaltation?

Because I wouldn't want to spend an eternity with this God, even if he were proven to exist, perhaps.

[Snow]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 10 2005, 02:08 PM

Many of you folks suggest your religion is somehow for the good. Or could make you a better person. And so on. But every now and then a thread comes up.... like the clemency one..... where I don't see it. I see a viciousness that reminds me very much like that of the people who would kill us. Just a different religion.

←

Well there's a difference between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives generally think that is alright to put to death brutal multiple murderers but that innocent life ought be protected while liberals generally think that multiple murderers ought be spared (and sometimes nominated for Nobel prizes) while innocent life (through abortion) is perfectly acceptable.

[sgallan]

Well there's a difference between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives generally think that is alright to put to death brutal multiple murderers but that innocent life ought be protected while liberals generally think that multiple murderers ought be spared (and sometimes nominated for Nobel prizes) while innocent life (through abortion) is perfectly acceptable.

Well as long as we are continuing generalities..... those same conservatives forget about those who are actually born..... except when around 20 years later (often less) those born committ some crime, where their answer is to then lock-em up and throw away the key. It does look like a pretty brutal society all the way around from my view.

[Guest sugarbay]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 12 2005, 08:38 AM

Good answer Preacher.  :)  In answer to the question below....

Furthermore, the LDS would tell you, why settle for a decent heaven, when you could spend eternity in exaltation?

Because I wouldn't want to spend an eternity with this God, even if he were proven to exist, perhaps. 

←

The alternative is unthinkable. I am sorry you don't have that comfort and find it interesting that you are here at this site, in these forums. That's a good thing, Sgallan. Always an interesting post from you.

[sgallan]

The alternative is unthinkable. I am sorry you don't have that comfort and find it interesting that you are here at this site, in these forums. That's a good thing, Sgallan. Always an interesting post from you.

I tried this religion a number of years back. That is how I found the board. It was my last attempt at religious beliefs. It didn't really change me for better, or worse. And it was an interesting experience. I hold no grudges. Being somewhat familar with the faith, and it's posited God..... well I am not big fan of the conservative American God definition (remembering to me there is no such being). I could give a hundred reasons as to why. Therefore not wanting to spend an eternity with such a god, or a number of his denizens (like Roman or many of the more hardcore Utah LDS), is pretty natural to me.

[Fiannan]

Ever read Paul Vitz's "The psychology of atheism"?

[sgallan]

I know of it. Why do you ask?

[Ray]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 12 2005, 07:11 AM

[The Bible] is just a book to me and I do not believe in a God. Not even a little.  :)

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Yes you do. You just don't realize you do. :)

And just to help you out a little, the word "God" is simply a word we use to refer to the most supreme being in all of existence, so no matter which parameters you use to determine which beings are more supreme than others, you do believe in "God".

[sgallan]

Yes you do. You just don't realize you do.

And just to help you out a little, the word "God" is simply a word we use to refer to the most supreme being in all of existence, so no matter which parameters you use to determine which beings are more supreme than others, you do believe in "God".

Using that definition I am God. Just ask my dogs.

[Ray]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 12 2005, 02:19 PM

Yes you do. You just don't realize you do.

And just to help you out a little, the word "God" is simply a word we use to refer to the most supreme being in all of existence, so no matter which parameters you use to determine which beings are more supreme than others, you do believe in "God".

Using that definition I am God. Just ask my dogs. 

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Heh, I won't need to ask them, because from our previous conversations I also learned enough to know that you think you are God too. :)

[sgallan]

because from our previous conversations I also learned enough to know that you think you are God too.

Oddly, I get that same feeling about you. But seriously.... NOT! If I were God I'd do something about my shoulder popping out all of the time. The rotator cuff pain. And wouldn't need to live on Ibuprofrin. Oh yeah, and my frickin estranged wife wouldn't have started up on meth.... ending up abandoning her husband and child.

Then again maybe I am God. Most religious versions seem to deal up with a various amount of dysfunction as well.

[Ray]

Scott,

I’m sorry about what has happened between you and your wife, but it is still possible for your wife and family to overcome all of the obstacles that are keeping you apart and become even closer than you were before.

There’s nothing like a good family, you know, and with God all things are possible.

And btw, if I was God, I would still worship Jesus Christ and our Father in heaven, because I would still know that it is only through Them that I have become truly perfect.