Christians & Secular Society

[prisonchaplain]

This string may be similar to the poll I posted recently about Christians and politics. However, my concern this time is the broader role of believers in society. Ultimately, our eschatology (beliefs about the end times) may influence our answers to these questions. Just how much can Christians hope to accomplish in America or the world? Should we try to control government? Is it possible for us to create a better world, or is the course set?

For my view, visit:

http://www.fedwaymirror.com

Click the "opinions" tab, and look for the Dec. 10 article, "Christians want to influence society, not take it over."

[roman]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Dec 11 2005, 01:31 AM

This string may be similar to the poll I posted recently about Christians and politics.  However, my concern this time is the broader role of believers in society.  Ultimately, our eschatology (beliefs about the end times) may influence our answers to these questions.  Just how much can Christians hope to accomplish in America or the world?  Should we try to control government?  Is it possible for us to create a better world, or is the course set?

For my view, visit:

http://www.fedwaymirror.com

Click the "opinions" tab, and look for the Dec. 10 article, "Christians want to influence society, not take it over."

←

I believe that we should always believe for the best in all situations. That we should yield our influence when and where we can. the voting booth is one place and the political arena of events is another. The local as well as the state and federal goverment. With out the Christian world view and influence America would soon disappear.

So what we are mocked in the media and with sound bites that seem to ridicule our faith. We are called to not only talk the talk but to walk the walk. And sometimes are best comes out in example---to truth, justice the way of the LORD

[sgallan]

With out the Christian world view and influence America would soon disappear.

Why? From my POV there are far less secular nations than this one, that are far less violent. Crime filled. Lock up less of their people. And have similar freedoms. Much of Europe for example and parts of Asia.

[roman]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 11 2005, 08:25 AM

With out the Christian world view and influence America would soon disappear.

Why? From my POV there are far less secular nations than this one, that are far less violent. Crime filled. Lock up less of their people. And have similar freedoms. Much of Europe for example and parts of Asia.

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I don't really get what point you are raising---but to answer your question as to why---Much of Europe is in utter darkness when it comes to spiritual matter and so are their economies.

The US was founded on Godly pricipales and it is substained by them---without Gods influence morality soon fades away. A nation the rejects the God revealed by Jesus Christ--is a nation awaiting judgment from God, or may be already receiving that judgement. God is the author of truth. Secular humanism and moral relativism are failing as we speak----When all the dust clears Jesus is the way the truth and the life---without him people are lost--believing a lie and are dead!

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Dec 11 2005, 10:40 AM

  The US was founded on Godly pricipales and it is substained by them---without Gods influence morality soon fades away.

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What is the rate of atheists incarcerated in the penal system versus the rate of "Christians" incarcerated in the penal system?

[sgallan]

I don't really get what point you are raising---but to answer your question as to why---Much of Europe is in utter darkness when it comes to spiritual matter and so are their economies.

Thewy seem to be doing alright. As are their economies. Canada as well. And the Asian nations are doing terrific. China is growing very quickly.

The US was founded on Godly pricipales and it is substained by them---without Gods influence morality soon fades away. A nation the rejects the God revealed by Jesus Christ--is a nation awaiting judgment from God, or may be already receiving that judgement. God is the author of truth.

Funny, from my perspective I suspect I would be either dead, or incarcerated very quickly in a Christian theocracy. Why? Because as your response shows.... there is no room for any save a Christian in your idea society. This is the way of most totalitarian governments whether they be religious or secular

Secular humanism and moral relativism are failing as we speak----When all the dust clears Jesus is the way the truth and the life---without him people are lost--believing a lie and are dead!

I am secular humanist. I spend most of my time helping others and doing good things. So my basic opinion of the posited god you just described is..... if such a god existed, he sounds more brutal to me than many of the secular humanists you are afraid of. I wouldn't want a minute with such a being much less an eternity. I sure wouldn't want to raise a child in an environment where ererybody except those who belong to my religion are somehow evil. But hey, that's just me..... I am funny that way I guess.

[roman]

Originally posted by Snow+Dec 11 2005, 12:50 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-roman@Dec 11 2005, 10:40 AM

  The US was founded on Godly pricipales and it is substained by them---without Gods influence morality soon fades away.

←

What is the rate of atheists incarcerated in the penal system versus the rate of "Christians" incarcerated in the penal system?

←

I don't know nor do i really see your point. But to engage you ---just because someone says they are christian---doesn't mean a thing---------Lifestyle and fruit prove that.

I have a brother in prision and had been there for 19 years. many will say they are a Christian just to be able to go to different activities not afforded others---so you account of the satistics will----IMHO be faulty

[sgallan]

But to engage you ---just because someone says they are christian---doesn't mean a thing---------Lifestyle and fruit prove that.

So does this mean you are the arbiter of what it is to be a Christian? How did you go about getting this position?

[prisonchaplain]

sgallon says:  Funny, from my perspective I suspect I would be either dead, or incarcerated very quickly in a Christian theocracy. Why? Because as your response shows.... there is no room for any save a Christian in your idea society. This is the way of most totalitarian governments whether they be religious or secular

Here's the shockaroo, sgallon I agree with you. I've never supported a Christian party, or the establishment of a Christian theocracy. Lord Acton was right when he said, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I have been disappointed at times with the off-the-cuff remarks of some of our religious conservative leaders. They are indeed susceptible to getting drunk with power when they are too successful. It is also unfortunate that we have been driven into one political party. The polarization is not healthy, and has the potential to result in political fantaticism.

[sgallan]

I have been disappointed at times with the off-the-cuff remarks of some of our religious conservative leaders. They are indeed susceptible to getting drunk with power when they are too successful. It is also unfortunate that we have been driven into one political party. The polarization is not healthy, and has the potential to result in political fantaticism.

Unfortunately that is the tact the leadership of the religious right, and it's adherents (like DeLay) have taken. They seem to want this to be a war. And talk in warlike terms all of the time. Does the left do this too? No doubt. But I have a hard time with any organization which declares war on me, and people like me, whether it be for the left, or right side of the political spectrum.

[roman]

sgallon

first of all you seem to be a rather bitter person or at the least very hostile towardsGgod and his followers. You say I explained a god to you and you want nothing to do with that---I did no such thing.

Next i'm not afraid of you or any secular humanist. On the contrary I understand your position better than you think------I can experience your while you can not mine---not without faith in God and a direct revelation from him to you----so you really don't know what your actually saying----especially with all the evidence that God exsist----evidence you are denying.

Third ---I never said I was the one who decided what a Christian was---i was just making an obsevation on what is a fact---not all you claim the name of Christ are really believer---God said that not me.

Fourth---I never said that I was for a theocracy. Just that I favored the Christian world view as it has its bases in American history, But most Christens do believe that the LORD himself will set upon a throne on this earth for 1000 years

Fifth----you ain't evil just without a divine revelation

You are assuming way to much as far as I can see from your posting on my points anyway---and besides---I think you have declared war on faith

[sgallan]

first of all you seem to be a rather bitter person or at the least very hostile towardsGgod and his followers. You say I explained a god to you and you want nothing to do with that---I did no such thing.

My, my, aren't you a bit full of yourself. See..... this is only true if you are the only definition of Christianity. Fortunately you are not. Most Christians I know are much much nicer and are a credit to their faith. You are just a portion of the whole.

Next i'm not afraid of you or any secular humanist. On the contrary I understand your position better than you think------I can experience your while you can not mine---not without faith in God and a direct revelation from him to you----so you really don't know what your actually saying----especially with all the evidence that God exsist----evidence you are denying.

This is a faith thing. You can't "prove" anything. But it doesn't keep you from somehow thinking you are superior to me. Aren't you the special one. Does God know you are taking some of His territory?

Third ---I never said I was the one who decided what a Christian was---i was just making an obsevation on what is a fact---not all you claim the name of Christ are really believer---God said that not me.

See the above.

Fourth---I never said that I was for a theocracy. Just that I favored the Christian world view as it has its bases in American history, But most Christens do believe that the LORD himself will set upon a throne on this earth for 1000 years

So? What does that have to do with now.

Fifth----you ain't evil just without a divine revelation

Prove it with something besides faith. You can't of course.... so at the moment about the only value I see in your faith is that you think you are better than everybody else. I can be arrogant too.... and I don't need a god to do so.

You are assuming way to much as far as I can see from your posting on my points anyway---and besides---I think you have declared war on faith

Nah.... just demi-gods such as yourself who have already declared war (you want the quotes?) on folks like me, my gifted little one, and my friends and family.

[roman]

My My having to make stuff up to make a point Huh! Well if that floats your boat.

I will say this though about evidence-------eyewitness accounts---an empty tomb---secular historical writings-----all you deny

You object to my faith---but you will not reconize the faith system of your own and also how much of your life is under a Christian influence

What quotes could you possibly have of me against your family and friends------with wild accusations like this--no wonder you have to resort to the tactics you do

I like your side stepping of issue #4------pure &*TYVJHVBUYTUYV8997 AND NOW i MOVE ON

[sgallan]

I will say this though about evidence-------eyewitness accounts---an empty tomb---secular historical writings-----all you deny

I have heard of eye witness accounts of Bigfoot, UFO's with intelligent beings, Voodoo stuff, and an endless amount of other events. Some of these have millions of believers. I don't believe in those things either. What makes your "proofs" so special to the skeptic.

You object to my faith---but you will not reconize the faith system of your own and also how much of your life is under a Christian influence

Huh?

What quotes could you possibly have of me against your family and friends------with wild accusations like this--no wonder you have to resort to the tactics you do

What would you legislate on such issues as homosexuality, abortion, school prayer, pornography, and so on. If you say nothing you have my mea culpa.

I like your side stepping of issue #4------pure &*TYVJHVBUYTUYV8997 AND NOW i MOVE ON

What am I side stepping? That is your faith. I don't believe in it. You can't prove it to the skeptic. So I just wasn't stepping on it.

Is this all you have? I guess I am comfortable in not wanting what you have for either me or my child. You can always feel comfort in our eternal demise though. It should help you sleep at night.

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman+Dec 11 2005, 01:07 PM-->

Originally posted by Snow@Dec 11 2005, 12:50 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-roman@Dec 11 2005, 10:40 AM

  The US was founded on Godly pricipales and it is substained by them---without Gods influence morality soon fades away.

←

What is the rate of atheists incarcerated in the penal system versus the rate of "Christians" incarcerated in the penal system?

←

I don't know nor do i really see your point.

←

If you were familiar with the data the point would be obvious.

Evangelicals make us a disporportionately high percentage of the prison population. Atheists make up a disporportionately low percentage of the prison population.

In this particular example, without God's influence, morality goes up.

It goes without saying Mormons are significantly under-represented in the ranks of the incarcerated.

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Dec 11 2005, 01:07 PM

just because someone says they are christian---doesn't mean a thing---------Lifestyle and fruit prove that.

←

In other words - being a Christian is a matter of faith AND works.

... hmm, they call come around sooner or latter.

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Dec 11 2005, 06:17 PM

Fifth----you ain't evil just without a divine revelation

←

What a perfectly Mormon thing to say.

... they all come around sooner or later.

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Dec 12 2005, 12:07 AM

I will say this though about evidence-------eyewitness accounts---an empty tomb---secular historical writings-----all you deny

←

You needn't respond to this Roman, I'll take it from here.

Roman tried this approach once before... trying to say that there was proof of Christ's divinity because there were eye witness accounts to the empty tomb, and resurrection and secular historical support.

It goes without saying to anybody who has bothered to look into the matter that there are no known, verified eyewitnesses and no then contemporary secular accounts of Christ's divinity let alone his existence. It as silly a claim that can be made.

[prisonchaplain]

Snow asks: Evangelicals make us a disporportionately high percentage of the prison population. Atheists make up a disporportionately low percentage of the prison population.

In this particular example, without God's influence, morality goes up.

It goes without saying Mormons are significantly under-represented in the ranks of the incarcerated.

I wonder what prisonchaplain has to say about this? First, I'm not sure the claim that evangelicals are overrepresented in prison systems rings true. Our highest faith group is Catholic, followed by No Preference.

I think a better indicator would be the rate of spousal and child abuse. There is a myth out there that the number is quite high, proportionally, amongst fundamentalist/evangelical Christians. Ironically, a Catholic sociologist decided to dig deeper. Here's what he found:

1st: The number was indeed high amongst those men who claimed to be fundamentalist/evangelical/Bible-believing type Christians--IF THEY WERE NOT REGULAR CHURCH ATTENDERS

2nd: The number was well below the national average amongst men who both claimed conservative Christian beliefs AND THEY WERE REGULAR CHURCH ATTENDERS.

Conclusion: Aberrant social behavior is going to be highest amongst hypocrites, and shallow believers (you know--doctrine that's a mile wide, but only an inch deep), and lowest amongst those with a rigorous spiritual belief and practice.

BTW: I've heard many reports that the so-called fundamentalist Muslim suicide bombers and terrorists, generally are men with a very poor track record of personal piety.

[prisonchaplain]

SNOW says: In other words - being a Christian is a matter of faith AND works.

... hmm, they call come around sooner or latter.

Absolutely BECOMING a Christian merely requires the faith to receive. BEING a Christian means not only receiving from the Master, but turning and following him.

[sgallan]

Sgallon claims: Evangelicals make us a disporportionately high percentage of the prison population. Atheists make up a disporportionately low percentage of the prison population.

I didn't say this....

[Outshined]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 13 2005, 06:51 AM

Sgallon claims: Evangelicals make us a disporportionately high percentage of the prison population. Atheists make up a disporportionately low percentage of the prison population.

I didn't say this....

←

Just as I never said anything about being "happy" that 'Tookie' Williams' sentence was carried out. That didn't stop you, did it? B)

[Outshined]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Dec 13 2005, 01:37 AM

SNOW says:  In other words - being a Christian is a matter of faith AND works.

... hmm, they call come around sooner or latter.

Absolutely   BECOMING a Christian merely requires the faith to receive.  BEING a Christian means not only receiving from the Master, but turning and following him.

←

Agreed.

[prisonchaplain]

Sgallon claims: Evangelicals make us a disporportionately high percentage of the prison population. Atheists make up a disporportionately low percentage of the prison population.

I didn't say this....

Sorry about that It was Snow who asked. I've modified my post.