After a lovely trip through the internet, I find this...

[CommanderSouth]

Of course, now I am awash in doubt. Maybe not faith shattering doubt. But it's up there. I really don't know how to respond to this kind of thing. In a way I think it's funny, I joined the church because it provided answers (and what I believe to be the testimony of the Holy Spirit of course). And in finding those answers, I am now faced with even harder questions, that are so much more niche I have even fewer people to go to.

All this because of their smarky title for an article on the brother of Jared...

Edited March 18, 2010 by beefche
cannot link to anti-Mormon site

[CommanderSouth]

Mind you, I thought I had addressed and got past these questions when I was investigating. Obviously when I am not feeling the same things I felt before, I can much more easily question their validity as the spirit...

[bytor2112]

The best place to find answers is on your knees and I would suggest that you read the rules, because linking to anti material is against the rules.

That being said, sites like MRM are their to deceive and mislead and the damage can be as pernicious as pornography. My advice is to stay away and seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

[Palerider]

check out this link

Answers About Mormons and Mormon Belief (LDS FAQ - Latter-day Saints)

[CommanderSouth]

My first reaction is that along the lines of, Is MRM really Anti? I wasn't trying to break any rules, but other than a slight sarcastic streak that I have seen even in the pretty genuine places, I didn't see them as Anti. From what I can see they are any other evangelical group who is out there to try to "win the lost" just so happens we are lost. Coming from a pentecostal home I can see why someone who thinks we have to believe God sinned would post something such as that. And I am, and will continue to pray about such things, but when there isn't all that much in the standard works, where could I go but to others?

[confuzzled]

.........

Moro. 7: 5, 17

5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

[Faded]

CommanderSouth attacks against the Church of Jesus Christ have always been ongoing. Every anti-Mormon accusation has it's answer, but the enemies of Christ's Church and Kingdom on Earth enthusiastically flood the world with an endless barrage of attacks. So answering every single attack would be hopelessly time consuming.

One thing that I can offer you is this. Pick up your Book of Mormon and start reading and praying. This boils the whole thing down to something very simple and tangible. If the Book of Mormon is from God then everything that came thereafter was according to the will of God himself. If the Book of Mormon is not true then the whole Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is wrong obviously.

Once you have your answer on this matter, then we can more easily address any specific concerns.

You see, Satan is a sly trickster. If he can get a single doubt into your mind, he will keep reminding you of it and keep pestering you with it until your certainty of truth erodes into nothing. That is how he works. Anti-Mormons think they are doing God's work, and the jokes on them unfortunately.

Begin with the Book of Mormon and lets see where it goes from there.

[bytor2112]

Not sure I am following you. Are you suggesting that Latter Day Saints believe that God sinned????? Call them what you will....MRM peddles half truths and shapes alleged facts to fit there distorted view of our faith. Why? Is it really to save the lost? C'mon....if they really wanted to save the lost, they would have much more success by expressing what they believe to be true to those who are obviously not living a Christ centered life rather than attempting to "minister" to the Latter Day Saints with weak testimonies.

[annamaureen]

I have no advice or anything; but I do know how you feel. Whenever I stumble across articles by antis or former members, they always leave me feeling really down and doubtful.

The scripture that I always remember (and perhaps might be helpful to you to) is D&C 6:22-23. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things. Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?"

[Faded]

One important thing to point out about Anti-Mormon media: Their tactics are IDENTICAL to every method that Satan has always used and will always use to destroy the belief of God People. Twist the facts. Create a doubt. Distort things to make the truth look like obvious lies.

How does it make you feel? Do you feel enlightened and spiritually uplifted, or does it make you feel confused and sick inside? That should offer some insight as to the source of these materials. If it is of God, then it should make you feel uplifted, enlightened and good, shouldn't it?

[JohnnyRudick]

My first reaction is that along the lines of, Is MRM really Anti? I wasn't trying to break any rules, but other than a slight sarcastic streak that I have seen even in the pretty genuine places, I didn't see them as Anti. From what I can see they are any other evangelical group who is out there to try to "win the lost" just so happens we are lost. Coming from a pentecostal home I can see why someone who thinks we have to believe God sinned would post something such as that. And I am, and will continue to pray about such things, but when there isn't all that much in the standard works, where could I go but to others?

CommanderSouth.

I have been where you apparently are at this minute.

I have read just about every thing anti that is out there unless something different could be made up in the last 10 years which I seriously doubt.

Much is just recirculated every few years to catch the next generation of "seekers after Truth"

I wish to tell you, save your time and wear and tear on your spirit.

They are lies and half truths.

It is like when you see a thing from one angle in a certain light

it appears to be what it is not.

Been there and wasted a lot of time with it.

Some of this is pushed by well meaning people out to "Save" you

and I understand that.

But if you are in this Church, The Lords Church, and are doing all that you can to stay active in the things that the Lord would have you do, You are in no need of "Saving":).

Love God, Follow the Lord in His Church and all will will be well with you.

Even in times of trial, God will give you witness that He will stay with you beyond the End.

Bro. Rudick

[CommanderSouth]

Not sure I am following you. Are you suggesting that Latter Day Saints believe that God sinned????? Call them what you will....MRM peddles half truths and shapes alleged facts to fit there distorted view of our faith. Why? Is it really to save the lost? C'mon....if they really wanted to save the lost, they would have much more success by expressing what they believe to be true to those who are obviously not living a Christ centered life rather than attempting to "minister" to the Latter Day Saints with weak testimonies.

One of the articles they posted basically posited that we HAVE to have believed God sinned. If someone really thought that, I could understand them thinking that person lost. I used to think that way myself.

Though I may let more slide on sarcasm than I should. They titled an article something to the effect of "Did Mahonri Moriancumer discover America?" which I found to be a tad sensationalist. Which I am sure was their goal, it did get me on their site. I just don't want to be so cynical that I think everything that disagrees with the church is "anti" (I am NOT saying I feel you are saying this), but then again, wolves in sheep's clothing I suppose is sometimes true...

[Faded]

One of the articles they posted basically posited that we HAVE to have believed God sinned. If someone really thought that, I could understand them thinking that person lost. I used to think that way myself.

The essence of any accusation that LDS believe that God sinned has absolutely no factual basis whatsoever.

Though I may let more slide on sarcasm than I should. They titled an article something to the effect of "Did Mahonri Moriancumer discover America?" which I found to be a tad sensationalist. Which I am sure was their goal, it did get me on their site. I just don't want to be so cynical that I think everything that disagrees with the church is "anti" (I am NOT saying I feel you are saying this), but then again, wolves in sheep's clothing I suppose is sometimes true...

Bear in mind, they are mislead. Here's the really sad fact: They try to save "those poor misguided Mormons" from an eternity in Hell by deception. Most know very well that they are taking statements WAY out of context, sensationalizing things and being deceptive. But they think that they are doing it for our own good.

Yeah, lying to the Mormons to save them. Very strange indeed.

Then again, the Spanish Inquisition killed people to save them from hell, so the general idea of "doing something bad to save people from themselves" has been around for a long time.

[CommanderSouth]

I don't know but for some reason I was thinking of this when I started this thread, and I feel it appropriate now as well, the chorus to a song that really fits:

Where could I go oh where could I go

Seeking a refuge for my soul

Needing a friend to save me in the end

Where could I go but to the Lord

[CommanderSouth]

Then again, the Spanish Inquisition killed people to save them from hell, so the general idea of "doing something bad to save people from themselves" has been around for a long time.

That, and no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Sorry to go from fervent to flippant like that, but I don't have opportunities for wit like that often...

[Faded]

That, and no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Sorry to go from fervent to flippant like that, but I don't have opportunities for wit like that often...

Where is the Laugh button when you need it!?

[bytor2112]

One of the articles they posted basically posited that we HAVE to have believed God sinned. If someone really thought that, I could understand them thinking that person lost. I used to think that way myself.

Though I may let more slide on sarcasm than I should. They titled an article something to the effect of "Did Mahonri Moriancumer discover America?" which I found to be a tad sensationalist. Which I am sure was their goal, it did get me on their site. I just don't want to be so cynical that I think everything that disagrees with the church is "anti" (I am NOT saying I feel you are saying this), but then again, wolves in sheep's clothing I suppose is sometimes true...

But, you of course know that we absolutely do not believe that God sinned, right? Bill Mckeever and his ilk make a living bashing Mormons. To stop, would destroy his lively hood and he wouldn't be so important in the circles he runs in.

I believe that the Church is true.....because of the Holy Spirit and it is that continuous witness of the Spirit that strengthens my faith and teaches me Eternal truths that are only understood by the power of the Spirit. Without it, I wouldn't believe in this or any other religion or creed.

[CommanderSouth]

But, you of course know that we absolutely do not believe that God sinned, right? Bill Mckeever and his ilk make a living bashing Mormons. To stop, would destroy his lively hood and he wouldn't be so important in the circles he runs in.

I believe that the Church is true.....because of the Holy Spirit and it is that continuous witness of the Spirit that strengthens my faith and teaches me Eternal truths that are only understood by the power of the Spirit. Without it, I wouldn't believe in this or any other religion or creed.

My understanding is that Most take the God was a savior stance, or the "I don't know" stance. I have not met a saint that proclaims that God sinned.

The massive irony of this whole topic, is that God having sinned was the logic train I was mulling about when I had the most intense encounter with what I believe to be the spirit in my whole life. A major part of my testimony no less, but I have refined my thought process since then to simply acknowledge the possible mortality of God at some previous point. Or, If still the spirit was what I felt (and God has never been mortal), it was nothing more than an answer, not necessarily related to my thoughts, as the result of that encounter, was a belief in all of it, the church was true, and I didn't care about Infinite Regression, or none of it. A feeling I have yet to feel so intensely since.

Edited March 18, 2010 by CommanderSouth

[CommanderSouth]

Also, I should say upfront, I know all my experiences, and may not elaborate enough to make them make sense to you all. So if I fall into that, let me know and I can expound. I want to make sense, and I do to myself, but I need to make sure I do to others as well :)

[Faded]

My understanding is that Most take the God was a savior stance, or the "I don't know" stance. I have not met a saint that proclaims that God sinned.

Oh THAT schpeel!

Let me guess.

"As man is God once was. As God is, man may become." + [Jump to a bunch of conclusions] = "Mormons believe that God was once a sinful man."

But let's look at this tactic and recognize it for what it is: Nitpicking and making unfounded conclusions in order to introduce a thread of doubt into your mind. There's an endless list of these little spiritual jabs.

I strongly recommend taking the opposite approach. Find out from God whether this Church is God's Church and Kingdom on Earth. Go read the Book of Mormon and keep in mind exactly how it came to us. Delivered by an angel of God and translated into English by an uneducated farm-boy (and prophet) not by scholarship but by the gift and power of God. The way the Book of Mormon came into the world makes it the ideal litmus test of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel.

If it is of God, then Joseph Smith was a true prophet from God and apostle of Jesus Christ. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet and apostle, then this really and truly is God's Church and Kingdom on Earth, established according to His will and under his continual direction.

[Traveler]

I don't know but for some reason I was thinking of this when I started this thread, and I feel it appropriate now as well, the chorus to a song that really fits:

Where could I go oh where could I go

Seeking a refuge for my soul

Needing a friend to save me in the end

Where could I go but to the Lord

I read this idea - "Where could I go"? If I want to learn anything, I go to an expert. If I want to learn mathematics then I would go to an expert in mathematics. What I would not do is try to learn mathematics from someone that has taken a course or two in mathematics and failed or someone not really interested in Math but none the less critical of every mathematical effort and notion.

Do not waist your time with failures and complainers. Look to what a person stands for and does well not what they are against.

If you would like to discuss something about Mormon doctrine - you will find many here willing to discuss your questions in a positive and uplifting manner.

The Traveler

[JohnnyRudick]

I read this idea - "Where could I go"? If I want to learn anything, I go to an expert. If I want to learn mathematics then I would go to an expert in mathematics. What I would not do is try to learn mathematics from someone that has taken a course or two in mathematics and failed or someone not really interested in Math but none the less critical of every mathematical effort and notion.

Do not waist your time with failures and complainers. Look to what a person stands for and does well not what they are against.

If you would like to discuss something about Mormon doctrine - you will find many here willing to discuss your questions in a positive and uplifting manner.

The Traveler

Very well put.

Reminds me of the critic who says

"Joseph Smith could not have seen God the Father and God the Son

because there is no God."

A real expert on such matters we have there, right?

As a really bright person so rightly said recently. . .

Absence of proof does not equal Proof of absence.

[InquisitiveSoul]

One thing I'd suggest, I've been checking out the church for years. The break through for me has come recently and the thing that stands out after I visited Anti Web Sites is the negativity which radiates from these sites. The things of the Spirit and Light are POSITIVE. When searching for light and truth, you will not feel negative when you find it. Light and truth radiate positive energy. The spirit you have previously felt brought you light.

Thus while some of these sites may feed you some truths, I've found nearly all of their truths are taken out of context.

Best of luck to you!

Edited March 18, 2010 by InquisitiveSoul

[Finrock]

Hello InquisitiveSoul! I hope you are well today. :)

One thing I'd suggest, I've been checking out the church for years. The break through for me has come recently and the thing that stands out after I visited Anti Web Sites is the negativity which radiates from these sites. The things of the Spirit and Light are POSITIVE. When searching for light and truth, you will not feel negative when you find it. Light and truth radiate positive energy. The spirit you have previously felt brought you light.

Thus while some of these sites may feed you some truths, I've found nearly all of their truths are taken out of context.

Best of luck to you!

I'm chuckling at myself because I'm starting to feel like I'm the "InquisitiveSoul" fanboy!

Seriously, your posts are spot on and I am thoroughly enjoying seeing what appears to me to be your conversion!

I love the Preach My Gospel manual. On page 97 it states that President Hinckley answers the question: "How do we recognize the promptings of the Spirit?" by reading Moroni 7:13, 16-17. President Hinckley then states:

That's the test, when all is said and done. Does it persuade one to do good, to rise, to stand tall, to do the right thing, to be kind, to be generous? Then it is of the Spirit of God...If it invites to do good, it is of God. If it inviteth to do evil, it is of the devil...And if you are doing the right thing and if you are living the right way, you will know in your heart what the Spirit is saying to you. You recognize the promptings of the Spirit by the fruits of the Spirit-that which enlighteneth, that which buildeth up, that which is positive and affirmative and uplifting and leads us to better thoughts and better deeds is of the Spirit of God"

Thank you InquisitiveSoul for your Spirit filled words.

Kind Regards,

Finrock

[Faded]

It is sometimes helpful to learn to group Anti-Mormon materials with similar types of material. For example: