Just some thoughts on Adam

[Maya]

I know my thoughts probably are too wild, but... and there is no more revelation on this than what is in the scriptures....

I was thinking of the Adams family. I was thinking what if... God created Adam to be like Him and not too different of the other "people" already living on the earth. However Adam was our Gods creation and his channel to get all His spiritchildren to habit the earth. God also made Eve as Adam and Eve is Gods image, alone they are imperfect. Now children of Adam, some of them married those "people" who already habited the earth, but who were not our Gods children. And thus they become a part of Adams family and Gods children.

You can find the consept of Nephites and Lamanites in the BoM and the Nephites were NOT always decendants of Nephi, just alike not all in Adams family were decendants of Adam and Eve, but decendant ... maybe even an other God, but they were taken in to Adams family and Gods children by babtism or such after they learned of the gospel. And some did not convert but held the wrong god and some of Adams family lost their faith in God.

In the flod however everyone else was destroyed, except Nooas family. There are some romers, that even a few others were saved, and it would not suprise me as Bible is the history of Noas family, just like BoM is a history of Lehis family... Yet there were other people around them too, which they married or took in the Gods family through teaching of gospel.

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

* Bible do not record ALL children born to Adam and Eve (no girls mentioned by name) ONLY those who were importnat to history.

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

* believers take wifes from those that did not believe in God or sons of God could they have been those that already excisted on earth?

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

* also? Refering maybe to other kind of fleshy peopel living on earth. Just a tought.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

* Bible dont tell names to those, that married out of Adams family. It dont either tell familylines of all wifes of Adams family.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

* The others had a bad infulence ... or men had bad infulence to the others?

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

* With children who have resighned the church and family (not dh and sons)who is not willing to listen, I can relate to that.

[hordak]

Just to put it out there in the US this is the Adams family.

http://thm-a03.yimg.com/nimage/ca2c82d56107c66e

Just wanted to beat Moksha to the joke:)

[Maya]

Hahhaha ha very funny Tickle me so I can laugh! I know Adams.

[hordak]

Hahhaha ha very funny Tickle me so I can laugh! I know Adams.

I didn't relize.

On the topic at hand i am an evolutionist so the idea that there were other people makes sense to me.

[HiJolly]

Doesn't sound too off to me, as I am a Theistic evolutionist.

HiJolly

[JohnnyRudick]

I have a little bit of a problem with some of it but of course I would:mellow:

I am a Creationist:)

Seven days but with a "gap theory" thrown in between the "Beginning" and the "Seven Days of [re-] Creation":D

[Seminarysnoozer]

I know my thoughts probably are too wild, but... and there is no more revelation on this than what is in the scriptures....

I was thinking of the Adams family. I was thinking what if... God created Adam to be like Him and not too different of the other "people" already living on the earth. However Adam was our Gods creation and his channel to get all His spiritchildren to habit the earth. God also made Eve as Adam and Eve is Gods image, alone they are imperfect. Now children of Adam, some of them married those "people" who already habited the earth, but who were not our Gods children. And thus they become a part of Adams family and Gods children.

You can find the consept of Nephites and Lamanites in the BoM and the Nephites were NOT always decendants of Nephi, just alike not all in Adams family were decendants of Adam and Eve, but decendant ... maybe even an other God, but they were taken in to Adams family and Gods children by babtism or such after they learned of the gospel. And some did not convert but held the wrong god and some of Adams family lost their faith in God.

In the flod however everyone else was destroyed, except Nooas family. There are some romers, that even a few others were saved, and it would not suprise me as Bible is the history of Noas family, just like BoM is a history of Lehis family... Yet there were other people around them too, which they married or took in the Gods family through teaching of gospel.

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

* Bible do not record ALL children born to Adam and Eve (no girls mentioned by name) ONLY those who were importnat to history.

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

* believers take wifes from those that did not believe in God or sons of God could they have been those that already excisted on earth?

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

* also? Refering maybe to other kind of fleshy peopel living on earth. Just a tought.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

* Bible dont tell names to those, that married out of Adams family. It dont either tell familylines of all wifes of Adams family.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

* The others had a bad infulence ... or men had bad infulence to the others?

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

* With children who have resighned the church and family (not dh and sons)who is not willing to listen, I can relate to that.

I am glad to see someone else who thinks like me. :) I have posted similar threads.

The one thing I would change about this theory though is that I think the fall allowed for a rapid change in DNA structure to allow for quick diversity. (Because I believe Adam was the first man) How else could cousins marry etc. without causing a lot of problems. But, inherent to the diversity and associated gene mutations would be a need to try to keep some range of similarity. I think this is why God gives importance to Seth looking like Adam and the importance of having a specific genetic link to the Savior. This is also why Abraham and Sarah had to have a child and Hagar's child was not good enough. And during Noah's day the genetic drift was so far off that it saddened God to see what that drift created, to the point that if spirits were placed in those bodies they would not have a chance at listening to their spirits.

This may also be why when we are perfected, we will have Jesus image in our countenance. And, possibly, when Joseph Smith sees the Father and the Son together they have to be introduced as I am the Father, this is my Son ... they look alike.

Of course, we haven't received those revelations but I think it is an interesting unrevealed topic.

Glad someone else sees these topics woven into the scripture and not just me. :)

[jadams_4040]

Just to put it out there in the US this is the Adams family.

http://thm-a03.yimg.com/nimage/ca2c82d56107c66e

Just wanted to beat Moksha to the joke:)

uncle ned!:)

[Hemidakota]

I was thinking of the Adams family. I was thinking what if... God created Adam to be like Him and not too different of the other "people" already living on the earth. However Adam was our Gods creation and his channel to get all His spirit children to habit the earth. God also made Eve as Adam and Eve is Gods image, alone they are imperfect. Now children of Adam, some of them married those "people" who already habited the earth, but who were not our Gods children. And thus they become a part of Adams family and Gods children.

If one is referring to bring man made speculation of humanoid archeology in-line with gospel, this is not the case. If it was the case, Joseph Smith would have stated it and correct Moses writings where Adam was called the first flesh – meaning – first man. Some will argue this point but for there sake, I rather wait for the correction to earth’s history by the unveiling the writings of the Brother of Jared.

As there is nothing in any findings since the dawn of man, meaning from diggings in the earth that even resembled any form that equals Adam’s corporeal but what was either destroyed in the last trial of mortal creation [animal kingdom] or to this mortal creation. Yes! I know there is argument dating of find objects that closely resembles a humanoid, but that is pure speculation based on our telestial state and the old theories that the earth was created in this belt [solar system]. Neither does DNA have the ability to improve upon itself without outside influence. This of course, is an old forum argument and not worth the time to revisit it for the hundred time. Maya, you have the ability as a member and a child of Heavenly Father to look into the past and see it for yourself.

You can find the concept of Nephites and Lamanites in the BoM and the Nephites were NOT always descendants of Nephi, just alike not all in Adams family were descendants of Adam and Eve, but descendant ... maybe even an other God, but they were taken in to Adams family and Gods children by baptism or such after they learned of the gospel. And some did not convert but held the wrong god and some of Adams family lost their faith in God.

[bofM mingling with other cultures] True but you are only reading from an observational writer’s viewpoint of specific plates. There are other plates that are lesser value to us but contains the civic side of history of the people. Who could of mingle with the Nephites? The Jaredites is one. Mulekites is another. Perhaps others were not only brought to the promise land. Even when reading the account from 1 Nephi to Jacob is the key of culture mingling no sooner than 30-years after landing in Mesoamerica. As I firmly believe, a few of people of Jared may have been left behind in Northern China before crossing the Pacific Ocean.

In Adam’s case, I would say NO! There were no humans here. Even if the garden was brought here [according to Young and Pratt], Joseph Smith was told by the Lord, ministering angels or spirits are those who lived here or will born here. That is key statement to live by. This is same reasoning to those who believe in aliens from other worlds. Not going to happen. Even if you encountered anything being from another world or location outside of this earth, these are they, lived here and were taken away and may return soon as the Lord deems necessary. It is His timeline and not ours when those who have been removed may come back. Most likely, the Terrestrial state of the earth since they already abide in that order. Again, this can be viewed for your own testimony.

In the flood however everyone else was destroyed, except Noah’s family. There are some roamers, that even a few others were saved, and it would not surprise me as Bible is the history of Noah’s family, just like BoM is a history of Lehi’s family... Yet there were other people around them too, which they married or took in the Gods family through teaching of gospel.

A good argumentum but never-or-less, I highly doubt Enoch, Moses, Joseph Smith, or the Lord Himself would lie about it and not state, there were others. As I can clearly see now where the Land of Shum was and how the earth itself not only tilted but changed before and after the flood. Read the revelatory sections concerning the flood or Noah when it is given by the Master unto the prophets.

* Bible do not record ALL children born to Adam and Eve (no girls mentioned by name) ONLY those who were important to history.

Exactly! What was the Savior’s sister names? Not listed either. Typical addressement where women in the scriptures were not considered status level unless they are either doing evil, arranged special important marriages, or in-charge of the tribe or nation in absent of righteous males. However, today we have ignored this old terrible habit. How many daughters did Eve conceive? One non-canonized writing listed 15. According to that writing, they had 30 total.

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

* believers take wifes from those that did not believe in God or sons of God could they have been those that already excisted on earth?

Go back to an earlier statement.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

* also? Refering maybe to other kind of fleshy peopel living on earth. Just a tought.

If you note, what happened to the overall earth’s environmental conditions before the flood to one after the flood? Note the age length started to dramatically drop until we reach Moses.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

How tall were Adam and Eve? Abraham, Moses, even Joseph Smith seen them. How tall was Cain when he appeared before a member of the church on a donkey or a mule? Having perfect DNA and thus cloning ourselves from that point forward can cause some replication issues. Even some of the earlier diggings of the American antiquity Indian mounds have revealed skeletons up to 9-12 feet tall. Even when they discovered the Land of Desolation and the plates of Ether, the enormous size of the breastplates, swords, and so forth, were a lot bigger than the typical Nephite. Even the Brother of Jared’s Urim and Thummim was design for person of large status since Joseph had a hard time in wearing them and in the end, resulted to a seer stone instead. Abrahamic non-canonized writing stated that both Adam and Eve were of a great status. Perhaps, it really surprised Abraham in seeing them as did Joseph Smith. Even a local sister, who had a special vision or dream recounted, the Nephite ministering spirit that I witnessed, had to turn sideways and duck in order go through her door. Not surprising to me.

* Bible dont tell names to those that married out of Adams family. It dont either tell family lines of all wives of Adams family.

Question is who wrote the record and was it important? We have Moses condensed version but where are the plates of Adam to Noah? Brother Jared did have them.

I won’t labour on the rest but you see my point. They can be answered from a scholarly standpoint or could be viewed for your own edification.

[Elphaba]

Just wanted to beat Moksha to the joke:)

You beat me as well. Don't do it again.

Elph

[Justice]

I rather wait for the correction to earth’s history by the unveiling the writings of the Brother of Jared.

Very off topic here, and I apologize for it, but I wanted to make an observation. If there is interest in the discussion pehaps we can begin a new thread.

For most of my life, without giving it much thought or study, I have assumed that the plates Joseph Smith had in his possession included the Large Plates of Nephi and all the sets mentioned on the title page of the Book of Mormon. But, now that I am wiser and smarter, and read and study the scriptures with an open mind and don't let my current beliefs guide my reasoning as I read, I realize now that this was impossible.

The plates Joseph Smith had were only the plates Moroni had with him at the end, because Mormon buried the rest (Joseph Smith said he saw an underground room in vision filled with plates and writings). Therefore, he had the Plates of Mormon (or the portion of Mormon's abridgment of the Large Plates that was given to Moroni--I don't believe he had ALL of Mormon's abridgment). The Large Plates, clearly, were buried by Mormon, not Moroni.

Also, Joseph Smith had either the original Small Plates of Nephi or an exact copy made by Mormon. It seems odd Mormon would have given Moroni the originals and not made a copy, but that appears to be the case. However, I'm not ruling out the fact that he made a copy to give to Moroni or put a copy with the Lage Plates which he buried. It was his goal to preserve "all the records which had been handed down" to him. The Plates of Mormon, or Mormon's abridment of the Large Plates, was NOT passed down to him, so he did not feel compelled to bury and protect it. In fact, I feel this was the very purpose Mormon created his abridment, so that Moroni would have the scriptures while the originals would be preserved.

And also, Joseph Smith did not have the Brass Plates.

This brings me to my point. Since Moroni abridged Ether, it stands to reason that the sealed portion that Joseph Smith was not allowed to look at was, indeed, the writings of the Jaredites... including the writings of the brother of Jared. In my opinion, it is these plates, as Hemi pointed out, that will be re-given to us at some future period.

Anyway, back to the topic...

Edited April 17, 2010 by Justice

[loganmc10]

While these are all neat ideas, about Adams children mixing with others, or others existing before Adam, I find them inconsistent with the scriptures, for instance, 2 Nephi says:

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

Also in Moses:

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living dsoul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

If anyone would like to read further, President Smith wrote a book entitled "Man, His Origin and Destiny", which deals with all these topics, he is very clear that Adam and Eve are the first parents of any and everyone who ever has or will live on this earth.

[Hemidakota]

Very off topic here, and I apologize for it, but I wanted to make an observation. If there is interest in the discussion pehaps we can begin a new thread.

For most of my life, without giving it much thought or study, I have assumed that the plates Joseph Smith had in his possession included the Large Plates of Nephi and all the sets mentioned on the title page of the Book of Mormon. But, now that I am wiser and smarter, and read and study the scriptures with an open mind and don't let my current beliefs guide my reasoning as I read, I realize now that this was impossible.

The plates Joseph Smith had were only the plates Moroni had with him at the end, because Mormon buried the rest (Joseph Smith said he saw an underground room in vision filled with plates and writings). Therefore, he had the Plates of Mormon (or the portion of Mormon's abridgment of the Large Plates that was given to Moroni--I don't believe he had ALL of Mormon's abridgment). The Large Plates, clearly, were buried by Mormon, not Moroni.

Also, Joseph Smith had either the original Small Plates of Nephi or an exact copy made by Mormon. It seems odd Mormon would have given Moroni the originals and not made a copy, but that appears to be the case. However, I'm not ruling out the fact that he made a copy to give to Moroni or put a copy with the Large Plates which he buried. It was his goal to preserve "all the records which had been handed down" to him. The Plates of Mormon, or Mormon's abridgment of the Large Plates, was NOT passed down to him, so he did not feel compelled to bury and protect it. In fact, I feel this was the very purpose Mormon created his abridgment, so that Moroni would have the scriptures while the originals would be preserved.

And also, Joseph Smith did not have the Brass Plates.

This brings me to my point. Since Moroni abridged Ether, it stands to reason that the sealed portion that Joseph Smith was not allowed to look at was, indeed, the writings of the Jaredites... including the writings of the brother of Jared. In my opinion, it is these plates, as Hemi pointed out, that will be re-given to us at some future period.

Anyway, back to the topic...

I do believe, Moroni in his journey made many stops on route to the last location at the hill not far from Joseph's farm. Some of those areas en-route were bless for specific reasons and usage of future temples. It is there Moroni built a room to store all the plates that was given to him from his father. It is here Moroni sought safety from those who wondered northward and eastward into the land. It is the same story of the cave, where the brethren saw mounds of plates in a 15 by 15 foot room.

It was the record that Moroni copied from the original plates of both Ether and others that fell into the hands of the major prophets of the Nephites. I don't believe they were the original plates since the likeness of same material and size was a unison of those unsealed. We do know, Moroni did read what was on the other plates and was told not to write about it.

Justice, we need to remember, Joseph didn't really need to read the sealed portion since [read D&C 76] being in the Johnston home, both Joseph and Sidney saw the beginning to the end. The difference between his observation and Joseph was details. Brother of Jared saw the details. He even knows you by name.

Now, there is person who is being prepared for our day to be another great seer like the prophet Joseph. It is his responsibility to use the power of GOD in converting those plates for our generation to glean from and be added to the other testament writings concerning our beloved Savior Jesus Christ. Joseph was not allowed to mentioned or write anything that was shown or voiced to him in person. Same story with Nephi seeing the days of John and was told by his ministering spirit in not recording it.

[Hemidakota]

While these are all neat ideas, about Adams children mixing with others, or others existing before Adam, I find them inconsistent with the scriptures, for instance, 2 Nephi says:

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

Also in Moses:

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living dsoul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

If anyone would like to read further, President Smith wrote a book entitled "Man, His Origin and Destiny", which deals with all these topics, he is very clear that Adam and Eve are the first parents of any and everyone who ever has or will live on this earth.

I agree. Even if there are BYU scholars who truly object to President Smith's and the First Presidency statement.

[loganmc10]

Just a quote for anyone who's interested, this is from "Man his origin and destiny":

"All life comes from God and he did not create it temporally, that was achieved through the violation of a law. There is no Redeemer other than Jesus Christ for this earth and since Adam could not have brought death on pre-Adamite life, such life could not obtain the blessings of the resurrection. Yet the Lord has declared that through the atonement all things partaking of the fall will be redeemed. So there were no pre-Adamites.

Another thing I wish to say. A man cannot serve God and mammon. Organic evolution is destructive of faith in God. It is rebellion against him. Those who accept this pernicious doctrine cannot consistently believe in the fall of Adam. If they do not believe in the fall of Adam they cannot believe in Jesus Christ, for if Adam had not transgressed the law under which he was placed on this earth, there would have been no occasion for a redemption. How could Adam be redeemed from something that never happened. We are taught that had not Adam partaken of the forbidden fruit all things would have remained in the condition in which they were before the fall."

Joseph Fielding Smith, Man, His Origin and Destiny, p.279 - 280

[Hemidakota]

I fail to add, Elder Eyring's father strongly object to this writing and voice his opinions to President Joseph F. Smith. From my own observation, I can attest, even Elder Eyings' father was wrong. It is matter of having an earnest desire to see it for ourselves on what happen. This is why we are given the priesthood and to being part of the last dispensation. Yes! I do know it takes great faith, but we all that ability to seek for an answer.

[Moksha]

Just wanted to beat Moksha to the joke:)

Alas, the descendants of Cousin It were unable to be Temple

Workers during the last part of the 20th Century, due to the

curse of the French beret.

[Justice]

I do believe, Moroni in his journey made many stops on route to the last location at the hill not far from Joseph's farm. Some of those areas en-route were bless for specific reasons and usage of future temples. It is there Moroni built a room to store all the plates that was given to him from his father. It is here Moroni sought safety from those who wondered northward and eastward into the land. It is the same story of the cave, where the brethren saw mounds of plates in a 15 by 15 foot room.

I think the Large Plates were far too many in number, if they filled a small room, for Moroni to carry around himself. Even if he could, the risk he would be captured with the plates was too great.

I believe it was Mormon who buried the Large Plates, while there were yet many thousands of Nephites living to carry and protect the plates as they moved them. He buried them just before the last and great battle. I believe the Large Plates were not buried in the *same* hill Cumorah, but some other place farther south and west. I also believe this is part of the confusion many have as to why the hill Cumorah appears to be described in a different location as the one we know in New York.

Mormon 6:

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

And then shortly after this, Mormon wrote:

Words of Mormon:

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

Mormon didn't even discover the Small Plates of Nephi until his abridgment of the Large Plates was complete and he was about to give it to Moroni. I picture that he searched through the Large Plates one last time to be sure he didn't miss anything, probably because he was propmpted, and that's when he found the Small Plates of Nephi.

This small piece of information completely changes the common interpretation held today of D&C 10, and what exactly was in the portion of the translation that was lost (116 pages). The common belief is that the 116 pages contained a record from Lehi through King Benjamin. Well, that just couldn't be true. What Joseph Smith let out of his possession was the Book of Lehi (see preface to D&C 10). Now, it very well could be, and probably was the case, that they had translated more than the 116 pages, but they only lost the Book of Lehi (D&C 10: 30 and 40-41). Notice the last part of verse 41 "or until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained."

Nephi's brother also sheds light on what may have been on the 116 lost pages:

Jacob 1:

1 For behold, it came to pass that fifty and five years had passed away from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; wherefore, Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment concerning the small plates, upon which these things are engraven.

2 And he gave me, Jacob, a commandment that I should write upon these plates a few of the things which I considered to be most precious; that I should not touch, save it were lightly, concerning the history of this people which are called the people of Nephi.

3 For he said that the history of his people should be engraven upon his other plates, and that I should preserve these plates and hand them down unto my seed, from generation to generation.

...

9 Now Nephi began to be old, and he saw that he must soon die; wherefore, he anointed a man to be a king and a ruler over his people now, according to the reigns of the kings.

10 The people having loved Nephi exceedingly, he having been a great protector for them, having wielded the sword of Laban in their defence, and having labored in all his days for their welfare—

11 Wherefore, the people were desirous to retain in remembrance his name. And whoso should reign in his stead were called by the people, second Nephi, third Nephi, and so forth, according to the reigns of the kings; and thus they were called by the people, let them be of whatever name they would.

The Large Plates didn't even have the same writers as the Small Plates. The prophets wrote on the Small Plates, while the Kings wrote, or caused to be written, the engravings on the Large Plates.

So, the only common author between the Large and Small Plates was Nephi.

Anyway, I'm getting way ahead of myself, and way off the topic of this thread.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Justice