President Monson dedicates bank building

[ehkape]

Well, if you don't trust the church and the outside auditors they hire to examine their books to be honest, then you probably shouldn't donate. The problem with opening the books is that everybody becomes an expert on how the church should direct funds donated to it. I suggest that if you can't trust the church to handle donated funds properly, then you probably should find another cause to give to.

Are they outside auditors? Do you know who does the auditing? I remember my dad doining the auditing in our stake when I was a boy... That was one of his callings, not his profession. Is that common practise elsewhere?

And whats wrong with opening the books? I'd like to know what the money is spent for. I don'T think people would become expert on how the church should spend the donations. Nobody becomes expert on who is the next bishop or RSpresident either. It would just be good to know.

[Guest mormonmusic]

And whats wrong with opening the books? I'd like to know what the money is spent for. I don'T think people would become expert on how the church should spend the donations. Nobody becomes expert on who is the next bishop or RSpresident either. It would just be good to know.

This is just my opinion.

Because we believe the Church is directed by Christ, and that our religion is deeply rooted in faith that the Lord will never allow the Prophet to lead us astray, there's a "cultural belief" that the Church is not formally accountable to its members for the use of its funds. It's accountable to God and Christ. Now, I'm sure the GA's think about how the membership might react when they decide where to invest and how to spend, but I don't see this as a primary criterion in their spending and use of funds.

Anyone who insists "I want to see the books" would also raise eyebrows or perhaps even be labelled pre-Apostate.

Also, most of the stalwhart Mormons I know say that after they've done their part in giving the money, it's in the Lord's hands. Or they say it's not their's to question what the GA's do with the money and that they, as members, will be blessed for giving it no matter what happens to it. So, the use of funds by the GA's is a non-issue with much of the membership.

Also, I think the issue of money is sensitive among certain groups within the Church. Not everyone is a stalwhart Mormon. Some are reluctant enthusiasts of the Church due to testimonial experiences, but also questioning minds.

For this group, to see a Church awash in cash while rank and file people have to work until they are 90 to meet basic necessities would hurt their faith. It would also also raise controversy as people in the World and Church make judgments about what the Church should and should not spend money on, based on their misunderstanding or simply judgmental attitudes toward us.

When you espouse certain religious values, you immediately make yourself a target. Certain factions in society will immediately start looking for ways to justify their belief that Mormons are hypocrites. I think the anti-Mormons would have a field day as they slant our spending to make it look like an organization that takes advantage of its people, when it doesn't.

So, I think opening the books might cause more harm than good given the foregoing. And also, I think only a small part of the Church membership would even think this is a necesary move by the GA's.

I personally would like to know, but its only curiousity for now.

In fact, at one time, I was able to do an Internet search and find the financial statements of any particular Ward in Canada. It's law that all charitable organizations have to make their financial statements a matter of public record. However, I was able to see only individual Ward's financials, and not the aggregate. Nor was I able to see consolidated financial statements for the Canadian operations as a whole.

However, I was able to see this -- the average Ward brought in about $200,000 in donations a year in my Stake, which had a mix of wealthy and lower-income wards. Of this, about 5-10% went back to the Ward to fund its budget. The rest was forwarded to higher levels of the organization to fund Stake, Regional, and other operations. The breadth or specific accounts to which these funds were dispersed, or on who they were spent wasn't clear from the information given.

Edited May 26, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Moksha]

Asking to see the books would be like questioning the appearance of impropriety for drinking something dark amber and bubbly. It's not like somebody is telling us to avoid the appearance of such a beverage. It's a matter of faith.

[ehkape]

mormonmusic, thanks for your opinion!

You made some interesting statements and I read your post a few times

This is just my opinion.

Because we believe the Church is directed by Christ, and that our religion is deeply rooted in faith that the Lord will never allow the Prophet to lead us astray, there's a "cultural belief" that the Church is not formally accountable to its members for the use of its funds. It's accountable to God and Christ. Now, I'm sure the GA's think about how the membership might react when they decide where to invest and how to spend, but I don't see this as a primary criterion in their spending and use of funds.

- I agree. But then it should be no problem/harm/embarassment to let us know about it

Anyone who insists "I want to see the books" would also raise eyebrows or perhaps even be labelled pre-Apostate.

- But why? It's only fair to know what my (and your) money is used for. I don't think it's because of a lack of faith that people ask this question.

Also, most of the stalwhart Mormons I know say that after they've done their part in giving the money, it's in the Lord's hands. Or they say it's not their's to question what the GA's do with the money and that they, as members, will be blessed for giving it no matter what happens to it. So, the use of funds by the GA's is a non-issue with much of the membership.

Thats what I observe as well. But I find it sad that so many people don't care

Also, I think the issue of money is sensitive among certain groups within the Church. Not everyone is a stalwhart Mormon. Some are reluctant enthusiasts of the Church due to testimonial experiences, but also questioning minds.

For this group, to see a Church awash in cash while rank and file people have to work until they are 90 to meet basic necessities would hurt their faith. It would also also raise controversy as people in the World and Church make judgments about what the Church should and should not spend money on, based on their misunderstanding or simply judgmental attitudes toward us.

This implies that the church is spending our money in a "wrong" way. If the church does what it says - spending the funds agreeable to the Lords will - there should be no reason to make judgements. In fact, quite the opposite. People could see how much good the church does.

When you espouse certain religious values, you immediately make yourself a target. Certain factions in society will immediately start looking for ways to justify their belief that Mormons are hypocrites. I think the anti-Mormons would have a field day as they slant our spending to make it look like an organization that takes advantage of its people, when it doesn't.

Thats your most interesting statement... How could they possibly do it, if every penny is accounted for and for the world to see that it is spent wisely? They could only use the report if it reveals that it isn't.

So, I think opening the books might cause more harm than good given the foregoing. And also, I think only a small part of the Church membership would even think this is a necesary move by the GA's.

I personally would like to know, but its only curiousity for now.

thats at least 2 members then :)

In fact, at one time, I was able to do an Internet search and find the financial statements of any particular Ward in Canada.

It's law that all charitable organizations have to make their financial statements a matter of public record.

If it is the law, why doesn't the church make it public? Our articles of faith state that we believe in living according to the law of the land. (Or is it only Canadian law and not U.S.?)

However, I was able to see only individual Ward's financials, and not the aggregate. Nor was I able to see consolidated financial statements for the Canadian operations as a whole.

However, I was able to see this -- the average Ward brought in about $200,000 in donations a year in my Stake, which had a mix of wealthy and lower-income wards. Of this, about 5-10% went back to the Ward to fund its budget. The rest was forwarded to higher levels of the organization to fund Stake, Regional, and other operations. The breadth or specific accounts to which these funds were dispersed, or on who they were spent wasn't clear from the information given.

looking forward to read your answers,

ehkape

[Guest mormonmusic]

mormonmusic, thanks for your opinion!

You made some interesting statements and I read your post a few times

Nice to know someone actually read my long post!

By the way, when I wrote that response, I was trying to adopt/explain the perspective of the typical faithful Mormon. I actually think differently than most active members on this issue -- I think more like you.

Also, to extend the idea even further, I'm one of those people who could make the money/temporal aspects of the Church an issue for my commitment if I wanted to (not that you would, I'm not implying that). Realizing this, I deal with it be avoiding thinking about it, or minimizing my interaction with it. It's amazing the things a testimony will allow you to accept.

- I agree. But then it should be no problem/harm/embarassment to let us know about it

However, remember the factions in the Church like myself who find issues of money a sticking point. Even though every penny might be spent wisely, the fact that the Church has so much of it when members are doing without elsewhere might be enough to set people off.

I also imagine someone like Michael Moore or PBS showing the fancy temples, the huge investments the Church owns, the upper middle class mission and temple president homes owned by the Church, or other above average assets I'm not aware of. And then, juxtapositioning it against a faithful poor family who lives in a trailer and whose father works 3 jobs so he can make ends meet and pay his tithing. Or whose children couldn't find the money to go to college.

Armed with the books, the slanted perspectives that enemies of the Church could put forward (probably laced with falsehoods) may well do more harm to faithful members' testimonies unecessarily. It isn't worth it. And it could make missionary work even harder than it is due to anti-Mormon propaganda that would spring up. Those anti-mormons can take the best thing and turn it into something evil. We've all seen it.

- But why? It's only fair to know what my (and your) money is used for. I don't think it's because of a lack of faith that people ask this question.

I don't either, but again, remember the top-down culture of this religion. Callings are given by revelation, we don't speak poorly of or criticize our leaders, obedience is the first law of heaven, etcetera. It's part of our culture that you don't question your leaders because everyone believes these leaders are installed and directed by God.

So, it's out of faith that people DON'T ask this question (I'm not saying you don't have faith -- some of us have faith and ask questions anyway, you and me both). It's actually symbolic of our faith that the Church is what it is -- an institution blessed and set up by God himself.

Thats what I observe as well. But I find it sad that so many people don't care

I don't think it's that they don't care. I care deeply when I write that check for thousands of dollars that could reduce my mortgage or get me a decent car rather than the old jalopies I've purchased my whole life to achieve my savings targets. Or position me to buy more investments that generate passive income so I don't have to work as hard. I also bite my tongue in PEC meetings when I'm struggling to have a good quorum program and I get a budget of only $70 for the whole year. I routinely felt stunted that I give so much of my money to the Lord, and then find only 5% of the gross donations of a Ward goes back to fund its programs, to help make them good.

Or. that as a priesthood leader I had to personally fund a mailing list for 3 years when I have a child with an expensive chronic illness, and have to work 3 months of the year just to clear off my tithing obligation, and work two jobs to generate enough savings that I can sleep at night.

However, although those things bother me at times, I let them go because of my testimony of the truthfulness of the Church. Sustaining and not questioning leaders is part of the whole package, so I reluctantly accept it and try not to make an issue of it. In fact, I try to do it willingnly or else there are no blessings. It's one of life's challenges for me in the Church.

This implies that the church is spending our money in a "wrong" way. If the church does what it says - spending the funds agreeable to the Lords will - there should be no reason to make judgements. In fact, quite the opposite. People could see how much good the church does.

I think they would see a certain amount of money spent on doing good. But they would also see money tied up in investments or instruments they don't agree with. People will always disagree on matters of money. Also, when they see the huge sums of money the Church has, they are going to infer that's the motive of the higher-ups of the Church -- money. People always do when large sums of money are involved.

In fact, it's part of being a good person/organization to accept that even when your motives are pure, cynical people will wrongly infer selfish motives. Mother Teresa, Jesus, and Ghandi were all subject to this. It would happen to the Church too. I can't think of a group that is more cynical about our motives than the anti-Mormons. I personally don't want to give them any more information to distort than they already have.

Thats your most interesting statement... How could they possibly do it, if every penny is accounted for and for the world to see that it is spent wisely? They could only use the report if it reveals that it isn't. thats at least 2 members then :) If it is the law, why doesn't the church make it public? Our articles of faith state that we believe in living according to the law of the land. (Or is it only Canadian law and not U.S.?)

I think there are probably areas where it ISN'T spent wisely. That's the nature of spending, unfortunately. Even though you try your best, there is always unintentional waste. Think of your own budget -- do you ever make a mistake with it? I have -- after careful thought and study I decide to spend in area X. And then, it turns out it was a mistake.

Just because the Church leaders try to act under inspiration, I'm sure they make mistakes sometimes.

By the way, it's law in Canada that the books have to be open on the unit level. I'm not sure if it's national or just the province I lived in. In America, I'm not aware of any such law, so the Church is in compliance in both countries as far as I know.

Now, let me get on my soapbox.

I was reading the writings of Ghandi -- a book called "My experiments with truth'. And he said that charitable organizations that serve noble, higher purposes should NOT have sources of revenue beyond donations from members. For example, they should NOT take surplus moneys from donations and invest it in businesses that generate income (like the Church does).

Why? Because then these orgs are no longer dependent on their membership for funds, and are more inclined to disregard their interests as a result. Revenue from sources other than membership donations makes the organization "unaccountable" and more likely to act out of naked self-interest.

I think his comment was sound, and there are times when I wish the Church had that attitude. However, this has to be counterbalanced with my testimony. I simply cannot deny that I had a spiritual experience the Church is true, and that I had subsequent experiences I cannot deny came from God. So, I have to accept the lack of disclosure about the Church's use of funds on faith.

Hopefully the Lord will see my commitment to following His Will. Even if I've misinterpreted my spiritual experiences, He'll know the extent of my commitment given my willingness to donate to His Church.

Edited May 27, 2010 by mormonmusic

[HiJolly]

Nice to know someone actually read my long post!

Well, it wasn't me!

If we can't lay aside our attachment to money, we're not going to get very far spiritually.

HiJolly

[Gwen]

the problem i'm seeing here is the attitude of "my" "your" "our" money. once you give the money away it's not yours anymore. you are not a shareholder of a company. you are not investing for some material gain in the end. it's not "your" money any more than it's your money after making a donation to any charity or making a purchase from walmart. once you give the money to someone it's not yours anymore. when you give to an organization or charity you are saying "i trust you to spend this money on the causes we mutually support" some ppl make their donations to political organizations, some churches, some to specific charities, the end is all the same you are giving your money away. i can see where a lot of frustration would come from thinking it was your money. might help you a lot to stop seeing it that way.

[Just_A_Guy]

Nobody becomes expert on who is the next bishop or RSpresident either.

Wow. What ward do you live in?

[ehkape]

Wow. What ward do you live in?

well, guess you're right... there are always some experts who know better, but I've never seen anyone lift their hand after the "anybody opposed" question.

Just like mormonmusic said: we swallow the whole package because we believe its all true.

Back in seminary (looong time ago :)) I was taught to not watch movies that had bad parts in it, even if there was just one single issue and the rest of the entire movie would be brilliant.

It's great - except for the bad part

[miztrniceguy]

I figure it this way....if you are going to worry about how it is spent, then don't give. Just like the wino outside the liquor store panhandling. If you are going to be critical about what he does with a dollar, don't give him one.