The Elders of the Church to Save the Constitution?

[Guest mormonmusic]

Joseph Smith was quoted as saying that "the constitution will hang by a thread, and it will be the Elder's of the Church that will save it".

Anyone know what this means? Or how it's supposed to come about?

[MarginOfError]

Please cite references.

One interpretation: This prophecy has been fulfilled...by Harry Reid.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I read it in the Book "The Coming of the Lord" by Gerald Lund a couple decades ago and no longer have the book.

But here are some references from the Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson:

"Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 618-619 — The Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time “this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction” (Journal of Discourses, 7:15). It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.If the Gentiles on this land reject the word of God and conspire to overthrow liberty and the Constitution, their doom is fixed, and they “shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant” (1 Ne 16:6; 3 Ne 21:11, 14, 21; D&C 84:114-115, 117 [Ether 2:8-10]).

Ibid., 619-620 — For years we have heard of the role the elders could play in saving the Constitution from total destruction. But how can the elders be expected to save it if they have not studied it and are not sure if is being destroyed or what is destroying it?Ibid., 620 — The Prophet Joseph Smith is reported to have prophesied the role the priesthood might play to save our inspired Constitution. Now is the time to move forward courageously — to become alerted, informed, and active.We know, as do no other people, that the Constitution of the United States is inspired — established by men whom the Lord raised up for that very purpose. We cannot — we must not — shirk our sacred responsibility to rise up in defense of our God-given freedom."

Has there been an attempt to overthrow the constitution? (As this is a precursor to saving the constitution) Also, how does the fact that getting involved in political issues can mean revocation of the Church's tax exempt status bear on this question? (The reasoning being that if the Church uses its influence over its membership to directly influence voting, then it's classed as a political organization and not a charitable organization, thus losing its tax exempt status).

[FunkyTown]

Please do a search on the White Horse prophecy. This has been discussed nearly to death on here.

Short answer from the Presidency of the church: If a major revelation was given to Joseph, it would not have been only given to two guys by a fire. It would have been given to the church. God is not a God of confusion.

[Hemidakota]

Please cite references.

One interpretation: This prophecy has been fulfilled...by Harry Reid.

No laugh button....:lol::lol:

[MarginOfError]

I read it in the Book "The Coming of the Lord" by Gerald Lund a couple decades ago and no longer have the book.

But here are some references from the Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson:

"Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 618-619 — The Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time “this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction” (Journal of Discourses, 7:15). It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.If the Gentiles on this land reject the word of God and conspire to overthrow liberty and the Constitution, their doom is fixed, and they “shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant” (1 Ne 16:6; 3 Ne 21:11, 14, 21; D&C 84:114-115, 117 [Ether 2:8-10]).

Ibid., 619-620 — For years we have heard of the role the elders could play in saving the Constitution from total destruction. But how can the elders be expected to save it if they have not studied it and are not sure if is being destroyed or what is destroying it?Ibid., 620 — The Prophet Joseph Smith is reported to have prophesied the role the priesthood might play to save our inspired Constitution. Now is the time to move forward courageously — to become alerted, informed, and active.We know, as do no other people, that the Constitution of the United States is inspired — established by men whom the Lord raised up for that very purpose. We cannot — we must not — shirk our sacred responsibility to rise up in defense of our God-given freedom."

Has there been an attempt to overthrow the constitution? (As this is a precursor to saving the constitution) Also, how does the fact that getting involved in political issues can mean revocation of the Church's tax exempt status bear on this question? (The reasoning being that if the Church uses its influence over its membership to directly influence voting, then it's classed as a political organization and not a charitable organization, thus losing its tax exempt status).

Well, since Benson was quoting from the Journal of Discourses, let's go to the actual source. In the Journal 7:15, we read,

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, "The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At a critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." It will be so. (July 4, 1854)

The other part the Benson uses, but doesn't cite, is

Brethren and sisters, our friends wish to know our feelings toward the Government. I answer, they are first-rate, and we will prove it too, as you will see if you only live long enough, for that we shall live to prove it is certain; and when the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the "Mormon" Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. (Brigham Young, JD 2:182, February 18, 155)

So it appears to me the words are all there, but as they are cited, they didn't come from Joseph Smith, but from Brigham Young. I'd be curious to see a documented and legit reference that ties these words to Joseph Smith.

[Hemidakota]

Please do a search on the White Horse prophecy. This has been discussed nearly to death on here.

Short answer from the Presidency of the church: If a major revelation was given to Joseph, it would not have been only given to two guys by a fire. It would have been given to the church. God is not a God of confusion.

Really! Is President Young one them?

The signers of the Declaration of Independence and the framers of the Constitution were inspired from on high to do that work. But was that which was given to them perfect, not admitting of any addition whatever? No; for if men know anything they must know that the Almighty has never yet found a man in mortality that was capable, at the first intimation, at the first impulse, to receive anything in a state of entire perfection, and it was for after generations to rear the superstructure upon it. It is a progressive—a grand work. If the farmers of the Constitution and the inhabitants of the United States had walked humbly before God, who defended them and fought their battles when Washington was on the stage of action, the nation would now have been free from a multitude of place-hunters who live upon its vitals. * *

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No; it will be held inviolate by this people, and, as Joseph Smith said, "The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction. It will be so."

With regard to the doings of our fathers and the Constitution of the United States, I have to say, they present to us a glorious prospect in the future, but one we cannot attain to until the present abuses in the Government are corrected.— J. of D. 7:13-14.

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No; it will be held inviolate by this people, and, as Joseph Smith said, "The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction. It will be so."

With regard to the doings of our fathers and the Constitution of the United States, I have to say, they present to us a glorious prospect in the future, but one we cannot attain to until the present abuses in the Government are corrected.—J . of D. 7:13-14

President Joseph Fielding Smith;

Now, these are the commandments of God, the principles contained in these commandments of the great Eternal are the principles that underly the Constitution of our country and all just laws. Joseph Smith, the prophet, was inspired to affirm and ratify the truth, and he further predicted that the time would come when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints above all other people in the world would come to the rescue of that great and glorious palladium of our liberty. We cannot brook the thought of it being torn into shreds or destroyed, or trampled under foot and ignored by men. We cannot tolerate the sentiment at one time expressed by a man high in authority in the nation. He said: "The Constitution be damned; the popular sentiment of the people is the constitution." That is the sentiment of anarchism that has spread to a certain extent, and is spreading over the land of liberty and home of the brave. We do not tolerate it. Latter-day Saints cannot tolerate such a spirit as this. It is anarchy. It means destruction. It is the spirit of mobocracy, and the Lord knows we have suffered enough from mobocracy, and we do not want any more of it.—Conference Report, October, 1912.

[Hemidakota]

President Charles Penrose

We have been told repeatedly—I have heard it ever since I came into the Church almost—that the time would come when that Constitution would be in danger, and it would be the privilege and the duty of the men of God in the Church of Christ to stand up for the Constitution and help to maintain it and preserve it from being trampled under foot. I call the attention of my brethren and sisters this morning to this declaration, and even if it had not been uttered in that form I believe with all my heart, because of the revelation that I have referred to, that the Lord designs that this people, of all people in this great land, shall be the defenders of the Constitution of the United States and stand by the fundamental principle which runs through the whole instrument, by which the people are represented by men of their own choice to make the laws, to execute them and to pass upon them—not to be passed upon by the multitude but by the tribunal that the Lord helped to bring about by giving wisdom to our forefathers that they might establish the government on those foundations. I draw your attention to this because I believe, as President Smith declared in the opening speech in this conference, that "we are living in perilous times;" that the time has come when our attention should be drawn to these things that we may know our duty and that we may perform it manfully.—Conference Report, October, 1912.

[Just_A_Guy]

Joseph Smith was quoted as saying that "the constitution will hang by a thread, and it will be the Elder's of the Church that will save it".

Anyone know what this means? Or how it's supposed to come about?

Actually, the prophecy was mis-transcribed. What Joseph actually said was that the Declaration of Independence would hang by a leather strap. Anyone who has seen National Treasure knows that this prophecy has been fulfilled.

[Hemidakota]

Joseph Smith -

This people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction.—Then shall the Lord say: Go tell my servants who are the strength of mine house, my young men and middleaged, etc., Come to the land of my vineyard and fight the battle of the Lord. Then the Kings and Queens shall come, yea the foreign saints shall come to fight for the land of my vineyard, for in this thing shall be their safety and they will have no power to choose but will come as a man fleeth from a sudden destruction. I know these things by the visions of the Almighty. (Joseph Smith Collection; from an address given 19 Jul 1840)

Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to peices [sic] and tumbling to the ground and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff up [on] which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction. (WJS 416)

[Hemidakota]

Joseph Smith was quoted as saying that "the constitution will hang by a thread, and it will be the Elder's of the Church that will save it".

Anyone know what this means? Or how it's supposed to come about?

Perhaps this is the others are complaining about;

In the month of May 1843. Several miles east of Nauvoo. The Nauvoo Legion was on parade and review. At the close of which Joseph Smith made some remarks upon our condition as a people and upon our future prospects contrasting our present condition with our past trials and persecutions by the hands of our enemies. Also upon the constitution and government of the United States stating that the time would come when the Constitution and Government would hand [sic] by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands but this people the Latter-day Saints will step forth and save it.

6General Scott and part of his staff on the American Army was [sic] present on the occasion.

I James Burgess was present and testify to the above. (WJS 279; from James Burgess Notebook, LDS Church Archives)

[Hemidakota]

A few more quotes;

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, "The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." It will be so. (JD 7:15; quoted by Brigham Young)

We are friendly to our country, and when we speak of the flag of our Union, we love it, and we love the rights the Constitution guarantees to every citizen. What did the Prophet Joseph say? When the Constitution shall be tottering we shall be the people to save it from the hand of the foe. (Tyler 350; quoted by Jedediah M. Grant)

It is said that brother Joseph in his lifetime declared that the Elders of this Church should step forth at a particular time when the Constitution should be in danger, and rescue it, and save it. This may be so; but I do not recollect that he said exactly so. I believe he [Joseph] said something like this—that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he, If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it. (JD 6:152; quoted by Orson Hyde)

My sisters, My remarks in conclusion will be brief. I heard the prophet Joseph Smith say if the people rose up and mobbed us and the authorities countenanced it, they would have mobs to their hearts' content. I heard him say that the time would come when this nation would so far depart from its original purity, its glory, and its love for freedom and its protection of civil rights and religious rights, that the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread. He said, also, that this people, the sons of Zion, would rise up and save the Constitution and bear it off triumphantly. (Snow, Eliza R. 556)

[Guest mormonmusic]

Perhaps this means that in last days, when Christ is on the earth reigning in the New Jerusalem, the only place the principles of the Constitution will be practiced is in His Theocracy. Other parts of the world will violate these principles with dictatorships, tribal violence to others, etcetera, as we saw in decaying Book of Mormon times?

Or is it too much to suppose that God's government on earth would carry the same principles of the Constitution of the United States of America?

[FunkyTown]

Perhaps this means that in last days, when Christ is on the earth reigning in the New Jerusalem, the only place the principles of the Constitution will be practiced is in His Theocracy. Other parts of the world will violate these principles with dictatorships, tribal violence to others, etcetera, as we saw in decaying Book of Mormon times?

Or is it too much to suppose that God's government on earth would carry the same principles of the Constitution of the United States of America?

Actually, the best place to find out what principles God's government on earth would have would be to apply the Saviour's teachings.

As for the White Horse Prophecy, it doesn't mean anything because it's not a prophecy and doesn't exist.

[Wingnut]

Actually, the prophecy was mis-transcribed. What Joseph actually said was that the Declaration of Independence would hang by a leather strap. Anyone who has seen National Treasure knows that this prophecy has been fulfilled.

/begin tangent

JAG, that ultrasound picture has been your avatar pic for several months now. How much longer before the baby is born?

/end tangent

[Guest mormonmusic]

Actually, the best place to find out what principles God's government on earth would have would be to apply the Saviour's teachings.

Which ones? I believe his teachings were centered on the individual, personal salvation and relationships with others. Never did he try to propose a system of government during his earthly ministry. In fact, he sidestepped questions meant to involve him in debate about government policy knowing full well this would interefere with His mission. (Give what is Caesar to Caesar, and to God, what is God, for example).

The only indication we have of the kind of system that might exist under a Theocracy led by Christ may be the United Order, but even that seems to be predicated on voluntary participation, and not a government mandated program full of penalties for non-compliance. And we have the belief that the father's of the constitution were inspired, which lends support for a US Constitution style of rights for people in a divinely-led government.

However, one could argue that the Founding Fathers inspiration was for an earthy government administered by man -- not a theocracy on earth where there is a perfect leader.

So reconcile these views, someone once said that "Enlightened Despotism" is the best form of government. And I could see Christ adopting a form of this government -- where there is absolute power invested only in Him ultimately, but it's used by someone who truly knows what's good for the people, and has their interests at heart. AT the same time, I think the basic rights of citizens in the constitution could co-exist with a divine form of englighted despotism like this.

Edited May 19, 2010 by mormonmusic

[FunkyTown]

Newsroom Blog: Church Statement on "White Horse Prophecy" and Political Neutrality

"The so-called 'White Horse Prophecy' is based on accounts that have not been substantiated by historical research and is not embraced as Church doctrine."

LDS.org disagrees with you, Hemi.

And if I have to choose between the church sponsored website that has the churches official stance on it and yours, Hemi? I'm going to go with the church.

Thank you.

Really! Is President Young one them?

President Joseph Fielding Smith;

[MarginOfError]

It's true FT, that the White Horse Prophecy has been officially discarded by the Church, but the components of the WHP are evident in many other statements by Church leaders. I tend to find that most of these come from Brigham Young's era. I have yet to see the claims commonly accredited to Joseph Smith documented and verified. For instance, the "hang by a thread" clause seems to be something coined by Young, and not by Smith. It seems like it became a catch phrase, a cliche that captured the sentiment and communicated a shared meaning of the time. Such cliches are usually misinterpreted out of their time, however.

My problem with these prophecies is that those who perpetuate them seem to have an agenda. It's their interpretation that the country will fall apart, and the elders of the Church will take it upon themselves to swoop in and rescue it. They use these prophecies as a call to arms. I think that greatly misinterprets what the greater body of study indicates.

When I read the evidence of the "prophecy" with the surrounding paragraphs, I get the sense that it won't be a call to arms that brings the elders together to save the principles of the nation. Instead, I get the impression that the nation will turn to the elders of the Church. That's a pretty significant change in interpretation.

It could very well be that the nation turns to the elders of the Church because the members of the Church have lived the Gospel in such a way that our reputation makes others believe we can make a difference.

Another interpretation could be the election of a member of the Church to a political office where he does much work to preserve civil right and religious rights. Hypothetically speaking, if Ambassador Huntsman were elected to the presidency and he took on a similar campaign for homosexual rights as what he led in Utah (a campaign to ensure civil union-type rights for same sex couples while preserving religion's view of marriage), would that or would that not be a fulfillment of prophecy? Could it be that the prophecy is fulfilled by one who deftly manages the balance between religious freedom and secular government?

[Hemidakota]

Funky, I am not referring too previous speculated and non-circumstantial evident regarding the WH Prophecy. But quotes that lead to a problem we may soon see in this land.

As I don’t believe, it will be church leaders only that will save this land. But, anyone who wants this land to be restored to the true principles our founding father who gave their lives for.

When I read the evidence of the "prophecy" with the surrounding paragraphs, I get the sense that it won't be a call to arms that brings the elders together to save the principles of the nation. Instead, I get the impression that the nation will turn to the elders of the Church. That's a pretty significant change in interpretation.

This I do agree...

[FunkyTown]

I have no doubt that is correct, Moe.

I worry about the agenda that comes with talking about the church coming in and 'saving the constitution as it hangs by a thread.'

Ultimately, I think we can only trust the leadership of the church in what they teach.

I worry about teaching something that the church doesn't. Will the Constitution hang by a thread? I have no doubt. Revelations discusses many problems with governments around the world and the adversary certainly wants to destroy freedom in the name of tyranny.

At that time, I will trust in the elders of the church to tell me what to do. Discussing this particular idea when we don't know what we'll be required to do, especially when it's almost inevitably brought up with an agenda behind it, is dangerous. It pushes us to look beyond the mark, which is something we are expressly told not to do.

It's true FT, that the White Horse Prophecy has been officially discarded by the Church, but the components of the WHP are evident in many other statements by Church leaders. I tend to find that most of these come from Brigham Young's era. I have yet to see the claims commonly accredited to Joseph Smith documented and verified. For instance, the "hang by a thread" clause seems to be something coined by Young, and not by Smith. It seems like it became a catch phrase, a cliche that captured the sentiment and communicated a shared meaning of the time. Such cliches are usually misinterpreted out of their time, however.

My problem with these prophecies is that those who perpetuate them seem to have an agenda. It's their interpretation that the country will fall apart, and the elders of the Church will take it upon themselves to swoop in and rescue it. They use these prophecies as a call to arms. I think that greatly misinterprets what the greater body of study indicates.

When I read the evidence of the "prophecy" with the surrounding paragraphs, I get the sense that it won't be a call to arms that brings the elders together to save the principles of the nation. Instead, I get the impression that the nation will turn to the elders of the Church. That's a pretty significant change in interpretation.

It could very well be that the nation turns to the elders of the Church because the members of the Church have lived the Gospel in such a way that our reputation makes others believe we can make a difference.

Another interpretation could be the election of a member of the Church to a political office where he does much work to preserve civil right and religious rights. Hypothetically speaking, if Ambassador Huntsman were elected to the presidency and he took on a similar campaign for homosexual rights as what he led in Utah (a campaign to ensure civil union-type rights for same sex couples while preserving religion's view of marriage), would that or would that not be a fulfillment of prophecy? Could it be that the prophecy is fulfilled by one who deftly manages the balance between religious freedom and secular government?

[Hemidakota]

Perhaps this means that in last days, when Christ is on the earth reigning in the New Jerusalem, the only place the principles of the Constitution will be practiced is in His Theocracy. Other parts of the world will violate these principles with dictatorships, tribal violence to others, etcetera, as we saw in decaying Book of Mormon times?

Or is it too much to suppose that God's government on earth would carry the same principles of the Constitution of the United States of America?

Which state [telestial or terrestrial] of life will be allowed to live on it when the Savior returns? This will answer to what core of beliefs they will carry.

[Just_A_Guy]

/begin tangent

JAG, that ultrasound picture has been your avatar pic for several months now. How much longer before the baby is born?

/end tangent

Early July. Or a couple of weeks earlier, if Mommy gets her way.

Perhaps this means that in last days, when Christ is on the earth reigning in the New Jerusalem, the only place the principles of the Constitution will be practiced is in His Theocracy. Other parts of the world will violate these principles with dictatorships, tribal violence to others, etcetera, as we saw in decaying Book of Mormon times?

Or is it too much to suppose that God's government on earth would carry the same principles of the Constitution of the United States of America?

Yes, I think it is. Some principles will certainly survive; but I think many will not.

First, we need to separate out the "Constitution" per se (which basically implements a republican government with power split between three branches) versus the "Bill of Rights" (which safeguards certain freedoms).

Regarding the original document: It seems pretty clear to me that the Millennial government will be a monarchy; so there go Articles I - III. We'll lose Article IV, too, unless the Lord pledges to never actually govern where local affairs are concerned (which I strongly doubt). Articles V-VII are pretty much meaningless in the absence of the other articles.

As for the Bill of Rights: well, ask yourself the following questions:

--Will the millennial government tolerate the production and publication of pornography?

--Will people under this government have the right to ownership and use of firearms?

--Will people so distrust the millennial government, that criminal proceedings are deliberately stacked in such a way as to let the accused go free if there is any basis for doing so?

--Will Jesus' service be limited to two four-year terms?

[Guest mormonmusic]

Will He subscribe to a socialist or capitalist philosophy, or some other philosophy? Will wealth redistribution, if it exists, be compulsory or voluntary?

[MarginOfError]

will he subscribe to a socialist or capitalist philosophy, or some other philosophy? Will wealth redistribution, if it exists, be compulsory or voluntary?

Yes!!!!

[Just_A_Guy]

Will He subscribe to a socialist or capitalist philosophy, or some other philosophy? Will wealth redistribution, if it exists, be compulsory or voluntary?

I hope the inference here isn't that the sum and essence of the Constitution is capitalism.

I happen to like capitalism. But IMHO it cheapens the Constitution to reduce it to a guarantee of a particular economic system.