Death Sentence

[Aristotle]

Then again, look at the recent controversy over the Crypts gang leader, in his appeal to the CA governor. Regardless of his connections with black militant groups (and the Muslims), he was still executed...even though it took some time between appeals.

[Bones]

Death Penalty: only 100% guilty

Abortion: rape or incest only

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Bones@Jan 9 2006, 05:30 PM

Death Penalty: only 100% guilty

Abortion: rape or incest only

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Good going, Bones!

[dontagreeljefe]

Could the reason more black people are executed is because more of them commit murder. Trying to pull race card. But do they see the race percentage of victims or how many are put to death in proportion to the crime.

The lord is no respector of persons and law shouldnt either. Regardless of skin color if someone commits pre meditated murder they should forfeit there right to live.

What would happen if Wisconsin had a death penalty would Jeffrey Dahmer of done what he did. And what more punishment could the person that killed him get in prison. None really with no death penalty in prison there is no reason not to murder.

For Dahmer my heart does not bleed for him by the wicked are the wicked punished.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 9 2006, 07:37 AM

or are we better if we let 999 murders and rapers off scott free in our society to do what they do best?

I didn't say that. I said you don't put them to death unless you are 100% certain. Because if they are innocent that is what is known as murder.

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So every drunk driver that results in death of someone innocent is a murder. Every fatal automobile accident - we can call the driver that caused the accident a murder. Every death that occurs of an innocent person - who ever is connected to the cause of that death that could have maybe prevented it is a murder? Here a good one - a doctor trying to save a life but the innocent person dies under his knife on the operating table that doctor is a murder?

Your arguments and standards are out of wack. Our law says if a jury says they are guilty they should be punished. It is interesting that just during this last week an innocent LDS missionary was shot to death by someone that was convicted and sent to jail - but someone let him out before he should have.

The point is that every person has the right to protect themselves. And so social order has the obligation to assist in protecting it's members. When order breaks down (people do not feel safe or protected) if society does not protect its members then it is every member for themself. If citizens do not think they are being protected then they will protect themselves - this is known as "taking the law into their own hans."

Trust me if this happens you will wish and pray for the crappy system we have now. I am all about making or system better - but there are a lot more murders that go unpunished than there are innocent persons convicted to death. This means the system is broke and is not protecting its people. I see you efforts only making the matter worse not better.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Jan 9 2006, 02:25 PM

On the other hand, my own concern is that there seems to be pretty clear indications that the darker your skin color and the skimpier your bank account the more likely you are to be a victim of a mistaken decision.  In contrast, wealthy light-colored folk who are as guilty as they get can often present a calm "professional" court demeanor, and can afford lawyers who know how to muddy the facts, so that they end up serving life or less.

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This kind of thinking worries me a little. My concern is if someone is convicted that should not have been - not the race or income. I am concerned because 80% of convictions happen to people that grew up in a broken home with one parent. Most of the drug user come from broken or single parent homes and children from broken or single parent homes have less education and make less money.

And we are setting up the next generation to have less family support. Most children in our country, as of right now, come from broken or single parent families. The scriptures tell us the sins of the parents fall upon the children for 3 or 4 generations.

I am concerned that most in society will begin to think our legal system will not protect them. Many minorities believe they are at most risk. I do not care what religion or race anyone is - if the breakdown of the family continues - this society will not last another generation. Come 2100 there will not be a USA - black, white or anything else. I suggest to you my friend that unless you can put families back together - you do little or nothing the solve the prison problems.

The Traveler

[sgallan]

So every drunk driver that results in death of someone innocent is a murder. Every fatal automobile accident - we can call the driver that caused the accident a murder. Every death that occurs of an innocent person - who ever is connected to the cause of that death that could have maybe prevented it is a murder? Here a good one - a doctor trying to save a life but the innocent person dies under his knife on the operating table that doctor is a murder?

I'd bet you'd be singing a different tune if you were the one wrongly sentenced to death for a murder you didn't commit. But it is pretty easy to take a different view in your ivory tower, eh? Say, what is your position on abortion. I'd think you'd be pro-choice since you don't seem to have an issue with innocents being put to death.

[sgallan]

I do not care what religion anyone is - if the breakdown of the family continues - this society will not last another generation. Come 2100 there will not be a USA.

I am not sure I'd want to live in the USA that you envision in any event. So this would work.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 9 2006, 06:22 PM

So every drunk driver that results in death of someone innocent is a murder. Every fatal automobile accident - we can call the driver that caused the accident a murder. Every death that occurs of an innocent person - who ever is connected to the cause of that death that could have maybe prevented it is a murder? Here a good one - a doctor trying to save a life but the innocent person dies under his knife on the operating table that doctor is a murder?

I'd bet you'd be singing a different tune if you were the one wrongly sentenced to death for a murder you didn't commit. But it is pretty easy to take a different view in your ivory tower, eh? Say, what is your position on abortion. I'd think you'd be pro-choice since you don't seem to have an issue with innocents being put to death.

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I have served in the military - I have put my life on the line so others (including those that do not like me) may live. I would gladly give my life, even if convicted wrongly for the safty and benefit of society. I am for protecting the innocent the best we can - even if it does not work 100% of the time every time. I do not believe is quitting because someone in convinced there was a mistake. Mistakes happen all the time - I just do not see that your suggestion can make it better or keep innocent people from being killed.

The Traveler

[sgallan]

Mistakes happen all the time - I just do not see that your suggestion can make it better or keep innocent people from being killed.

Then using your parameters I am against the death penalty. I'll probably start voting that way as well.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 9 2006, 06:41 PM

Mistakes happen all the time - I just do not see that your suggestion can make it better or keep innocent people from being killed.

Then using your parameters I am against the death penalty. I'll probably start voting that way as well.

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Let me explain where your logic makes me wonder. You say we cannot have a death penalty because we may convict someone that should not have been convicted. But we can lock them away for life because that is not a real punishment and innocent people can be punished that way and suddenly it is okay and you have the moral high ground.

The first problem is - you are not willing to punish with the death penalty with flaw but you are willing to punish another way forcing your view of a punishment that even you do not think is a real punishment because it is okay for innocent people - therefore it is not a real punishment.

The second problem with you thinking is if you are really concerned with innocent people why do you do nothing for the thousands of innocent people that are murdered for which no one is punished for - therefore encouraging others to murder with no fear of the law. Let’s see how many innocent people have been put to death by the law in the last year.

Now compare that number with the number of murders caused by criminals that have been convicted of murder and were released, escaped or killed someone during their incarceration. Which is more?

Your logic is flawed -

1. Because it does not solve the problem of innocent people being convicted. It does nothing for that. In fact it does not even try or suggest anything to keep that from happening. This tells me you don’t care a rat’s xxx for the innocent because you won’t do anything at all for them.

2. It does not reduce the overall numbers of innocent people being murdered. You want to lesson negative incentive to not murder. You want murders to believe that they can get away with it - and if they do get convicted the punishment is not real punishment, no big deal - just stuff that people like you would put innocent people through and still be able to feel good.

I would agree with you if I had even the smallest belief that you really cared about innocent people. But you seem to me to wish thousands to die so that one that someone may think is innocent (like yourself), regardless of a legal trial, might be wrongly convicted.

GET A CLUE - if they are wrongly convicted the problem is with the process not the punishment. You cannot fix something that is broke if you refuse to do anything about the problem and go nuts over the result. The real problem is wrongly convicting - the problem is not with punishment!!! Dah!!

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by dontagreeljefe@Jan 9 2006, 05:43 PM

Could the reason more black people are executed is because more of them commit murder.  Trying to pull race card.  But do they see the race percentage of victims or how many are put to death in proportion to the crime.

I've made this same argument in the past. However, the Death Row numbers are way too skewed. The reality is a rich white guy who commits premeditated murder is signficantly less likely to garner the death penalty than a poor black man who does the same. If 10 white guys kill and 50 black guys kill, and only 2 white guys fry, but 48 black guys fry, something's wrong with the system.

The lord is no respector of persons and law shouldnt either.  Regardless of skin color if someone commits pre meditated murder they should forfeit there right to live.

But it doesn't work that way. The Death Penalty is reserved for the most grievous crimes. And, the perpetrator's race is too signficant of a predictor to explain away.

Like I said, I'm ambivalent. However, if it is true that there is some subtle unfairness built into the system, such that one group of people is significantly more likely to fry, then I've got problems with the system.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Traveler@Jan 9 2006, 06:21 PM

I suggest to you my friend that unless you can put families back together - you do little or nothing the solve the prison problems.

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I second Traveler's motion

[Traveler]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Jan 9 2006, 08:47 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Traveler@Jan 9 2006, 06:21 PM

I suggest to you my friend that unless you can put families back together - you do little or nothing the solve the prison problems.

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I second Traveler's motion

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Someday perhaps, since you are in the front lines of this war you might post some insights on how we can put these kind of familes back together. Though I have some ideas - considering who you are and what you do - I would still like to hear this from you. :)

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Traveler@Jan 9 2006, 10:21 PM

Someday perhaps, since you are in the front lines of this war you might post some insights on how we can put these kind of familes back together.  Though I have some ideas - considering who you are and what you do - I would still like to hear this from you. :)

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Things we can do to put families back together.

1. As a culture, more strongly discourage premarital sex and cohabitation. Premarital sex sometimes leads to premature marriages built out of necessity. While the guy ultimately "does the right thing" he resents it, and the foundation is week. Alternatively, the gal has the baby and is an instant single mom--aka broken family. Cohabitation leads to a higher risk of divorce after marriage. Sociologists agree on this. A pattern of "I can always leave if MY needs aren't being met" results, once again, in a poor foundation to the marriage. Sex ed. in schools should unapologetically stress abstinence. We parents should talk the talk here, and set the expectations.

2. Churches need to strengthen their men's groups and programming. Additionally, leaders may want to work at ways in which general church programming can be made more appealing to men. Often what happens is that since most attenders are women, the programming gradually becomes "feminine." When men do come, they feel awkward.

3. Parachurch organizations, like Promise Keepers, should be supported by church leaderships. Other forms of small group meetings for men to support each other, and be frank with each other, can be powerful.

4. When the worst happens, real men pay their child support, honor visitation promises and times, and try to bolster their children through the visits, not compete with or demean the mom.

These are just some random thoughts. Hopefully there's something fruitful here.

[prisonchaplain]

I've argued in this post that the demographics of the death penalty are somewhat unnerving. See what you think, and feel free to comment:

<a href=\'http://www.prisonpolicy.org/prisonindex/deathpenalty.shtml\' target=\'_blank\'>http://www.prisonpolicy.org/prisonindex/deathpenalty.shtml</a>

[sgallan]

GET A CLUE - if they are wrongly convicted the problem is with the process not the punishment. You cannot fix something that is broke if you refuse to do anything about the problem and go nuts over the result. The real problem is wrongly convicting - the problem is not with punishment!!! Dah!!

I am not for punishing murderers. You mean life in prison is not punishment? Don't be an idiot. Here is where your logic if flawed...... life in prison is punishment. So again.... using your parameters I am against the dealth penalty. But life in prison works. Until you can figure that out, then conversing with you is a waste of time.

[sgallan]

FWIW Traveler -

Your draconian ways are pretty vicious. I suspect you rather like the way they do things in Saudi Arabia and used to in Afganistan. I rather like your argumentation though. It is that kind of logic which is why the death penalty is fading, and the number of people actually being given the death penalty, and being put to death, is going down. And actually has me reconsidering whether I am for the death penalty..... except in the most extreme cases (Dalmer and the other serialists).

[sgallan]

1. As a culture, more strongly discourage premarital sex and cohabitation.

Genie is out of the bottle. How do you get it back in?

2. Churches need to strengthen their men's groups and programming. Additionally, leaders may want to work at ways in which general church programming can be made more appealing to men. Often what happens is that since most attenders are women, the programming gradually becomes "feminine." When men do come, they feel awkward.

3. Parachurch organizations, like Promise Keepers, should be supported by church leaderships. Other forms of small group meetings for men to support each other, and be frank with each other, can be powerful.

These two are sort of the samething. What about the 40-50% of the people who don't attend church?

4. When the worst happens, real men pay their child support, honor visitation promises and times, and try to bolster their children through the visits, not compete with or demean the mom.

Why does the mom always get the kids? I am a way better parent than my wife.

[dontagreeljefe]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Jan 9 2006, 10:33 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Traveler@Jan 9 2006, 10:21 PM

Someday perhaps, since you are in the front lines of this war you might post some insights on how we can put these kind of familes back together.  Though I have some ideas - considering who you are and what you do - I would still like to hear this from you. :)

←

Things we can do to put families back together.

1. As a culture, more strongly discourage premarital sex and cohabitation. Premarital sex sometimes leads to premature marriages built out of necessity. While the guy ultimately "does the right thing" he resents it, and the foundation is week. Alternatively, the gal has the baby and is an instant single mom--aka broken family. Cohabitation leads to a higher risk of divorce after marriage. Sociologists agree on this. A pattern of "I can always leave if MY needs aren't being met" results, once again, in a poor foundation to the marriage. Sex ed. in schools should unapologetically stress abstinence. We parents should talk the talk here, and set the expectations.

2. Churches need to strengthen their men's groups and programming. Additionally, leaders may want to work at ways in which general church programming can be made more appealing to men. Often what happens is that since most attenders are women, the programming gradually becomes "feminine." When men do come, they feel awkward.

3. Parachurch organizations, like Promise Keepers, should be supported by church leaderships. Other forms of small group meetings for men to support each other, and be frank with each other, can be powerful.

4. When the worst happens, real men pay their child support, honor visitation promises and times, and try to bolster their children through the visits, not compete with or demean the mom.

These are just some random thoughts. Hopefully there's something fruitful here.

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That stat sounds like Jesse jackson complaining about the population of blacks in prison. Does that stat tell you what percentage of crimes are commited by those people. You go to pison if you commit a crime not because of your race.

That side is biased I some other stats at www.prodeathpenalty.com on innocence and its not near what they are telling you. How many are actually released from prison. An escaped or released murderer can murder another innocent man an executed murderer won;t.

Alma has good points defending the death penalty. D and C 42:19 and nephi he that kills shall die. I think homicide would go down if it was suicide basically.

His blood cries for vengeance. If you are against the death penalty you are saying ticking someone off being in the wrong place at the wrong time or a number of other reasons are worthy of death but intentionelly taking another human life isnt. That doesnt make sense.

[Aristotle]

In our Church, we need to strengthen the women's auxiliary so that the women can function as a sisterhood by being allowed to express their true thoughts and feelings (see Mormon Women/Prozac) without fear of being censured or medicated. And I'm not talking about a group gossip session!

If men are not paying attention to their priesthood leaders when counsel is reiterated from the prophet for men to respect their wives, then they should start listening instead of dozing. Abuse of spouse and child means "amen to the priesthood".

When someone commits a transgression (or a crime), they shouldn't be shamed and ostracized. Rehabilitation is necessary, both in the home and in the church, before it enters into the prison system. If one goes to prison, there should be support groups, counseling, job training and spiritual guidance available for those prisoners who wish to change their lives around by preparing them to re-enter society.

What's the old saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?

- Mrs. A

[Traveler]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 10 2006, 06:52 AM

GET A CLUE - if they are wrongly convicted the problem is with the process not the punishment. You cannot fix something that is broke if you refuse to do anything about the problem and go nuts over the result. The real problem is wrongly convicting - the problem is not with punishment!!! Dah!!

I am not for punishing murderers. You mean life in prison is not punishment? Don't be an idiot. Here is where your logic if flawed...... life in prison is  punishment. So again.... using your parameters I am against the dealth penalty. But life in prison works. Until you can figure that out, then conversing with you is a waste of time.

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Prison is not punishment - Those that are sent to prison are more likely to commit a crime and not likely to reform or change their ways. In fact there are even some that commit crimes just to get back to prison. Prison is an inconvenience for some but is not enough of punishment to make any real difference.

The Traveler

[sgallan]

Prison is not punishment - Those that are sent to prison are more likely to commit a crime and not likely to reform or change their ways. In fact there are even some that commit crimes just to get back to prison. Prison is an inconvenience for some but is not enough of punishment to make any real difference.

LOL..... okay I won't bother you anymore. As my daughter would say... you are whack.

FWIW..... you probably think the same about me. :)

[sgallan]

Does that stat tell you what percentage of crimes are commited by those people.

"Those people"...... ouch.

[Guest funkyfool416]

Prison is not punishment - Those that are sent to prison are more likely to commit a crime and not likely to reform or change their ways. In fact there are even some that commit crimes just to get back to prison. Prison is an inconvenience for some but is not enough of punishment to make any real difference.

The Traveler

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I disagree. Sure it is definitely an inconvenience but you cant honestly think that it isnt considered punishment?!?! IT is taking years of valuable time of your life away from you. Prison is a tough life to live in especially if you have a large bum. lol NO but honestly, it is a large enough punishment to make a large difference.