Did Adam and Eve knew of the Plan in the Garden?

[Hemidakota]

Related matter is the identity of Gabriel, an angel whose appearance to Daniel is first mentioned in the KJV in Daniel 8:16; 9:21. Joseph Smith was equating Noah with Gabriel publicly by 1839; see Ehat and Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith, 8-9, 13. This identification seems first to have been made in 1834; see the letter of Oliver Cowdery to John Whitmer, 1 January 1834, n. 17 above. Cf. D 128:21. Here again, Gabriel is a prominent figure in the pseudepigraphic literature, primarily in the Enoch literature, including Joseph Smith's Enoch text.

[mikbone]

Instructions delivered sometime in July 1839

Source: Willard Richards Pocket Companion (probably copied in part from notes of John Taylor)

Adam is Michael

The Priesthood was first given to Adam: he obtained the first Presidency & held the Keys of it, from generation to Generation; he obtained it in the creation before the world was formed as in Gen. 1, 26:28,--he had dominion given him over every living Creature. He is Michael, the Archangel, spoken of in the Scriptures,--

Noah is Gabriel

Then to Noah who is Gabriel, he stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood; he was called of God to this office & was the Father of all living in his day, & To him was given the Dominion. These men held keys, first on earth, & then in Heaven.--

The Priesthood is an everlasting principle & Existed with God from Eternity & will to Eternity, without beginning of days or end of years. the Keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent.--

When they are revealed from Heaven it is by Adams Authority.

[martybess]

Im no neurologist but I do have a medical background.

mikbone I'm glad your a surgeon and not a neurologist. I've spent my life's savings seeing my share of both and neurologist are the most pompous ppl I've known. Yes I'm judging here I know, I know.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I do love Adam though. I think that he was the most selfless man that lived. I believe that he partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because he did not want Eve to suffer being alone. Essentially he was willing to die just so Eve would have companionship. I do not think that he partook of the fruit knowing that he was going to condemn Jehovah to bleed from every pore.

I choose to believe what is written in the Book of Mormon about his motives, which is 2 Nephi 2:25 " Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy." and not just for companionship.

I think he knew that for men to have "joy" in this sense eternal joy, they would have to first exist in this probationary state and then also need a redeemer.

On one hand you say that he knew very little of the consequences but then turn around and say you love him because he is willing to die. That seems contradictory to me. If he is 'willing to die" then he understood the consequences.

I can't say whether he knew the specifics about how Jesus would pay the price in the detailed way that you are saying it "condemn Jehovah to bleed from every pore," but I can't see how he didn't know that by partaking of the fruit he would set in motion the full plan of needing a redeemer and that Jesus was the one for that plan and that He would have to sacrifice His life to make that happen. To me, that makes him even more lovable then him doing it just for companionship. He was doing it for all of us, so men might be and so we can all have joy beyond what he had at that time. If he really did it for those reasons then he must of known how that is possible.

[Seminarysnoozer]

And based upon Ether 3: 13-15. I believe that no one prior to Mahonri made the connection that God (Jehovah) was the person who would actually perform the atonement.

You are talking about post-fall knowledge, in other words after the veil and after spiritual death. We were talking about Adam's knowledge before the fall and in the presence of Heavenly Father. How does Mahonri Moriancumer's revelation relate to that?

In order to keep our first estate, didn't we all have to understand the plan? .. and actually choose Jehovah as our Savior?

[mikbone]

I choose to believe what is written in the Book of Mormon about his motives, which is 2 Nephi 2:25 " Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy." and not just for companionship.

You may recall that Adam refused to partake of the fruit innitially. Adam was obedient. He was determined to obey God. Eve on the other hand was willing to disobey Father in order to have children. Only when Adam was confronted with the possibility of letting Eve be cast out of the Garden alone, compounded by the fact that he was commanded to multiply and replenish the Earth was he willing to partake.

On one hand you say that he knew very little of the consequences but then turn around and say you love him because he is willing to die. That seems contradictory to me. If he is 'willing to die" then he understood the consequences.

You are misrepresenting my statements. I wrote that Adam did not understand the severe consequences that would occur because of the fall. He obviously knew that there was at least one consequence though... Moses 3: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And even though he was informed of this consequence. He didn't understand what death was exactly. Death did not exist within the Garden of Eden.

You are talking about post-fall knowledge, in other words after the veil and after spiritual death. We were talking about Adam's knowledge before the fall and in the presence of Heavenly Father. How does Mahonri Moriancumer's revelation relate to that?

I disagree with your premise. Adam and Eve passed through the veil prior to their birth in the Garden. Thus they forgot their pre-mortal memories before they were born. But because they were innocent within the Garden they were able to abide in the presence of God. They did not understand the difference between Good and Evil prior to partaking the fruit. Their knowledge of the Gospel did not change significantly after they partook of the fruit. They just were then able to distinguish between good and evil. Perhaps they were able to better percieve the Light of Christ after the Fall. Obviously Adam was taught about the Gospel while he was in the Garden but there were many points of doctrine that he just did not understand. Please see Moses 5: 6-10. These verses clearly (in my mind, at least) demonstrate that Adam did not understand the significance of sacrifice and the Atonement, prior to being taught this lesson by the Angel of the Lord.

In order to keep our first estate, didn't we all have to understand the plan? .. and actually choose Jehovah as our Savior?

Yes we all understood the plan and made a decision to follow the plan in the pre-mortal existence. But when we passed through the veil these concepts were erased from our memories. One only learn of the plan of salvation through missionary work and revelation by the Holy Ghost during this life.

Edited May 29, 2010 by mikbone

[Hemidakota]

Changing pace to another garden topic, read the following account from the Book of Genesis;

If you read the following,

7 And the Lord God aformed bman of the cdust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the dbreath of life; and eman became a living fsoul.

8 ¶ And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is dellium and athe onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the aarden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

If you noticed, man was formed long before the garden was even created. The garden is formed, along with the necessary life forms to sustain higher forms of life, namely, animals. At this point, there is no animals or a help meet. Interesting take...

18 ¶ And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

The animals are created next out of the same ground but inside the garden. After the animals, a woman is created as a 'help meet' to the man. But, curiosity here, the term Adam is now used versus man. This is the key to our ancient beginnings. For the eyes who are open may understand the story given.

Man was not formed in the garden.

Animals only came to accompany the 'man' but it was not the man who complained be lonely, but the Lord GOD [meaning head of the GODs] determined it. After the animals were created, man was given a name.

It seemed, this was not helping now Adam, in having companionship with the animals in not being alone. Now, appears on the scene, what was part of this Adam, they cloned a woman. Meaning, out of man. Remember, she has no name at this point but came after the fall.

Details are missing

Edited May 29, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

The key is the MAN and what constitute a MAN; what was the true eternal meaning behind this word is still not clear.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I disagree with your premise. Adam and Eve passed through the veil prior to their birth in the Garden. Thus they forgot their pre-mortal memories before they were born. But because they were innocent within the Garden they were able to abide in the presence of God. They did not understand the difference between Good and Evil prior to partaking the fruit. Their knowledge of the Gospel did not change significantly after they partook of the fruit. They just were then able to distinguish between good and evil. Perhaps they were able to better percieve the Light of Christ after the Fall. Obviously Adam was taught about the Gospel while he was in the Garden but there were many points of doctrine that he just did not understand. Please see Moses 5: 6-10. These verses clearly (in my mind, at least) demonstrate that Adam did not understand the significance of sacrifice and the Atonement, prior to being taught this lesson by the Angel of the Lord.

If you disagree with my premise then you disagree with what Joseph Smith taught about it and what Joseph F. Smith taught about his motives. That the veil did not come until after the fall and that Adam did it to open the door for all of us to be here. In quoting Moses 5, read verse 4, they were cast out of his presence. Being cast out of his presence doesn't mean anything to you in terms of understanding and enlightenment?

From Robert L. Millet, “The Man Adam,” Liahona, Feb 1998, 14;

"In the morning of creation, Adam, Eve, and all forms of life existed in a paradisiacal condition. All things were physical. But they were also spiritual in the sense that they were not mortal, not subject to death (see 1 Cor. 15:44; Alma 11:45; D&C 88:27). In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve walked with God. Adam was made “lord or governor of all things on earth, and at the same time [enjoyed] communion … with his Maker, without a vail to separate between.” (Joseph Smith, compiler, Lectures on Faith (1985), 12) Our first parents would have remained in this state indefinitely if they had not partaken of the forbidden fruit (see 2 Ne. 2:22; Moses 4:9).

The Latter-day Saint view of the events in Eden is remarkably optimistic. We believe that Adam and Eve went into the Garden of Eden to fall, that their actions helped “open the way of the world,” 7 and that the Fall was a part of the Father’s foreordained plan. “Adam did only what he had to do,” President Joseph Fielding Smith said. “He partook of that fruit for one good reason, and that was to open the door to bring you and me and everyone else into this world, for Adam and Eve could have remained in the Garden of Eden; they could have been there to this day, if Eve hadn’t done something.”

Because the Fall (like the Creation and the Atonement) is one of the three pillars of eternity, and because mortality, death, human experience, sin, and thus the need for redemption grow out of the Fall, we look upon what Adam and Eve did with great appreciation rather than with disdain. “The fall had a twofold direction—downward, yet forward. It brought man into the world and set his feet upon progression’s highway.” 9 As Enoch declared, “Because that Adam fell, we are” (Moses 6:48; see 2 Ne. 2:25).

Out of Eden

The Fall also opened the door to sin and death. This life became a probationary estate, a time for men and women to prepare to meet God (see 2 Ne. 2:21; Alma 12:24; Alma 34:32; Alma 42:4). With the Fall came a veil of separation between God and humankind; mortals “were shut out from his presence” (Moses 5:4). After being cast from the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were taught the gospel by the ministration of angels, by the voice of God, and through the power of the Holy Ghost (see Moses 5:1–12, 58)."

[mikbone]

If you disagree with my premise then you disagree with what Joseph Smith taught about it and what Joseph F. Smith taught about his motives. That the veil did not come until after the fall and that Adam did it to open the door for all of us to be here. In quoting Moses 5, read verse 4, they were cast out of his presence. Being cast out of his presence doesn't mean anything to you in terms of understanding and enlightenment?

No I disagree with your assumptions.

Being cast out of God's presence for a temporary mortal probation is a great blessing. Adam and Eve were taught the gospel while in the Garden of Eden but they learned the Gospel during mortality.

[mikbone]

I guess I disagree with the premise of this entire thread. The original quoted document is not doctrine. It is a conglomeration of quotes trying to put forth an incorrect concept

Adam and Eve passed through the veil prior to coming to Earth and being set in the Garden of Eden. I do not believe that their pre-mortal memories were intact. I believe that they were born by Heavenly Parents just like everyone else that has been born on this Earth. They were just like my children, intelligent but without knowledge or information. Their brains were empty vessels ready to be filled. Perhaps their situation was singularly different because for some reason they were not yet able to perceive the light of Christ - and for this cause they could not distinguish between good and evil. But although they did not perceive the light of christ they had the companionship of Jehovah during their stay in Eden.

They no doubt grew from childhood to adulthood during their stay in Eden. I believe that they were reared by Heavenly Parents whom educated them. For example they were taught how to tend a garden, build a structure, mine and work metals, general nutrition, medicine, reading and writing, music and the arts, and most importantly comandments and spiritual instruction. Essentially God prepared them fully for the fall that He knew would eventually occur. And even after the fall, He continued to instruct them. The verse (Moses 4:27 Unto Adam, and also unto his wife, did I, the Lord God, make coats of skins, and clothed them.) is a short statement that has lots of meaning. Prior to the fall nothing could die, but the fall changed this. All of creation became mortal. God taught Adam how to hunt. He instructed Adam on how to not only skin the animal, tan and prepare the leather, but He no doubt taught him how to slaughter the animal, cook the flesh, consume the meat, and preserve the remainder of the raw materials, etc. Imagine how this must have left an impression on Adam... Adam had befriended and named this animal while in the Garden. And he knew that his decision and actions had caused the change that required him to slaughter his friends so he could provide for his family.

There is no evidence that any of Adam and Eve's memories were wiped by partaking of the fruit. I guess you could argue that when they were finally kicked out the Garden that there was a partition that was placed between God and them that prevented them from having direct contact with God but this partition did not erase any of their memories.

I'll restate it again. Adam and Eve were veiled prior to being born on Earth in the Garden of Eden. They were taught by the best of instructors while in the Garden, their parents, our parents. But they learned the Gospel during their trial of mortality.

1) Adam was taught the meaning of why he was commanded to offer sacrifice only after he had left the Garden. Moses 5:6-10

2) Adam was baptised after the fall. Moses 6:51-67 Adam finally learns that there is a way for him to be forgiven for his transgressions through baptism and by the Only Begotten even Jesus Christ. This is where Adam is taught the full meaning of the Gospel.

3) Adam was further taught the Gospel and even "an holy ordinance" once again after the fall, Moses 5:59. This holy ordinance I believe is what we now know as the holy endowment.

Edited May 29, 2010 by mikbone

[Adomini22]

I agree with Milkbone on this one. They did not know the plan. Its actually quite obvious, the way I see it.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I guess I disagree with the premise of this entire thread. The original quoted document is not doctrine. It is a conglomeration of quotes trying to put forth an incorrect concept

Adam and Eve passed through the veil prior to coming to Earth and being set in the Garden of Eden. I do not believe that their pre-mortal memories were intact. I believe that they were born by Heavenly Parents just like everyone else that has been born on this Earth. They were just like my children, intelligent but without knowledge or information. Their brains were empty vessels ready to be filled. Perhaps their situation was singularly different because for some reason they were not yet able to perceive the light of Christ - and for this cause they could not distinguish between good and evil. But although they did not perceive the light of christ they had the companionship of Jehovah during their stay in Eden.

They no doubt grew from childhood to adulthood during their stay in Eden. I believe that they were reared by Heavenly Parents whom educated them. For example they were taught how to tend a garden, build a structure, mine and work metals, general nutrition, medicine, reading and writing, music and the arts, and most importantly the Gospel. Essentially God prepared them fully for the fall that He knew would eventually occur. And even after the fall He continued to instruct them. The verse (Moses 4:27 Unto Adam, and also unto his wife, did I, the Lord God, make coats of skins, and clothed them.) is a short statement that has lots of meaning. Prior to the fall nothing could die, but the fall changed this. All of creation became mortal. God taught Adam how to hunt. He instructed Adam on how to not only skin the animal, tan and prepare the leather, but He no doubt taught him how to slaughter the animal, cook the flesh, consume the meat, and preserve the remainder of the raw materials, etc. Imagine how this must have left an impression on Adam... Adam had befriended and named this animal while in the Garden. And he knew that his decision and action had caused the change that required him to slaughter his friends so he could provide for his family.

There is no evidence that any of Adam and Eve's memories were wiped by partaking of the fruit. I guess you could argue that when they were finally kicked out the Garden that there was a partition that was placed between God and them that prevented them from having direct contact with God but this partition did not erase any of their memories.

I'll restate it again. Adam and Eve were veiled prior to being born on Earth in the Garden of Eden. They were taught the Gospel by the best of instructiors while in the Garden, their parents, our parents. But they learned the Gospel during their trial of mortality.

I don't think you and I see the purpose of the veil the same way. When I read Gospel Principles, it is pretty clear to me the purpose of the veil is so that man's desire of their heart can be tested by their choosing between good and evil based on faith not direct knowledge. If God is walking and talking with them in the garden of Eden then there is no faith.

Maybe this is a weak metaphor, but I have heard it likened to going to a series of lectures and conversing with the professor directly about any questions you might have, learning as much as you can with text books open and writing on the chalkboard. But at the end of the lectures there comes a test, to determine how much you have really learned. It wouldn't be much of a test if the text books were open or the answers were still on the chalkboard. During the test, one has to rely on their own self, we might be able to ask the professor to explain the questions to us but the answer to the question ultimately has to come from us. The partaking of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil is like saying, "I am ready to take the test." So, to create the test all the books are shut, and we can't ask the professor to answer the questions for us and we will be responsible for our own answers. Adam and Eve had not yet been put in that situation where they were responsible for their own answers based on faith and so their "eyes were open" to the importance of such a thing. The knowledge of good and evil is to say that they could see with their own eyes after being in such a situation how important their previous learning was and their faith in God and God's plan to pass the test. And the knowledge of good and evil allows us to value doing well through faith and obedience to really have joy from our own advancement in faith. That joy doing the right not because we are compelled to do so but through our own desires and comes even from failing but then realizing our mistake and repenting. There is no failure without a test and there is no test without a veil and the knowledge of good and evil is the test. Before that there was no test and so there was no need for a veil as well as no need for faith, the Holy Ghost or prophecy.

You said that you "do not think their pre-mortal memories were intact" when in the Garden of Eden but they were not mortal in the Garden of Eden, so I am confused by that statement.

So, you think by Adam being placed in the Garden of Eden, even in an immortal state there was a fall of knowledge? He had to learn all that he had learned spiritually all over again? Sure, I can see how he had to learn physical things possibly although that knowledge may have already been part of his body construct. But if his spirit was punished with a veil by being placed in the Garden of Eden, when he was placed in an immortal body, like you suggest, what did he do wrong to have that fall from knowledge? Can you show me some written information about that without quoting his knowledge base after the fall (the real fall - after eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil)? You are the first person I have ever heard say that there was a veil placed by Adam being put into an immortal body and being in the presence of God. That concept is new to me.

[Seminarysnoozer]

1) Adam was taught the meaning of why he was commanded to offer sacrifice only after he had left the Garden. Moses 5:6-10

2) Adam was baptised after the fall. Moses 6:51-67 Adam finally learns that there is a way for him to be forgiven for his transgressions through baptism and by the Only Begotten even Jesus Christ. This is where Adam is taught the full meaning of the Gospel.

3) Adam was further taught the Gospel and even "an holy ordinance" once again after the fall, Moses 5:59. This holy ordinance I believe is what we now know as the holy endowment.

I'll respond to these statements since you put them in as an edit after I already responded to what you had there before. And by the way, I appreciate your responses, I am not trying to argue with you, just trying to understand where you are coming from and hoping to expand my understanding. Thanks for responding.

I think those things you listed are pieces of the test as it pertains to the test. The faith based test of offering a sacrifice is only needed when faith is needed. Again, I think that was something his eyes were closed to before he partook of the fruit. For point number 2, do you think that when Adam fought valiantly for Jesus Christ in the war in heaven he didn't understand Jesus' role in the plan. That seems strange to me. Was his supporting statement something to the effect of "hey Jesus is really cool, vote for Him." "That Satan guy is mean, don't follow him." If there really was a "war" of words, it must have not lasted very long if they didn't really understand the significance of Jesus' role in the whole thing and that we would run the risk of sinning and needing repentance. If anything, I am sure Satan brought up that point, that we may fail and have to pay the consequences for sinning.

Point 3, the endowment is given only after passing the first parts of the test and successfully overcoming discerning good from evil related to earlier contracts with God. Again, he wasn't given the opportunity to prove he could choose good over evil before the fall, so yes he didn't understand the details of the contract before the fall pertaining to things that had to be done during the test. It is kind of like the instructions that you get before a set of questions on the test, like when it says you can only use a number 2 pencil and don't write anything in the margins and if you are caught looking at someone else wife you will be immediately removed from the testing area and have to retake the first few tests. That also doesn't say that Adam didn't know Jesus' role before the fall.

I appreciate your patience with me. :)

[mikbone]

You said that you "do not think their pre-mortal memories were intact" when in the Garden of Eden but they were not mortal in the Garden of Eden, so I am confused by that statement.

Sorry, I ment pre-mortal existence memories. Pre-mortal existence refering to the location where we all previously resided as spirits in Gods presence. Thus Adam and Eve had no recollection of their pre-Earth existence when they were in the Garden of Eden because they had previously passed through the Veil.

So, you think by Adam being placed in the Garden of Eden, even in an immortal state there was a fall of knowledge? He had to learn all that he had learned spiritually all over again? Sure, I can see how he had to learn physical things possibly although that knowledge may have already been part of his body construct. But if his spirit was punished with a veil by being placed in the Garden of Eden, when he was placed in an immortal body, like you suggest, what did he do wrong to have that fall from knowledge? Can you show me some written information about that without quoting his knowledge base after the fall (the real fall - after eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil)? You are the first person I have ever heard say that there was a veil placed by Adam being put into an immortal body and being in the presence of God. That concept is new to me.

I don't want to go into my technical beliefs as to how the Birth of Adam actually occurred in the Garden, although I have previously posted it on other threads at this site. But basically I believe that Adam and Eve were both physically born as babies to Heavenly Parents. That their spirits had passed through the veil before being integrated into the new tabernacles of flesh and because of this, the newborn children Adam and Eve were ignorant. But with ultimate capacity and intelligence for learning and progress.

Edited May 29, 2010 by mikbone

[mikbone]

For point number 2, do you think that when Adam fought valiantly for Jesus Christ in the war in heaven he didn't understand Jesus' role in the plan.

He and We knew Jehovah and honored him for who he was and what he did. He was very special... Abraham 3:24 "and there was one like unto God". Jehovah was an easy leader to follow. He was full of knowledge and understanding. He had insight that we did not, and He had our best intrests in mind and heart. He loved us dearly. And was willing to sacrifice all for us.

But to answer your question, did Adam understand Jehovah's role in the plan? I know that Jehovah himself did not fully understand his role. And that became painfully obvious during Gethesamane.

Matthew 26: 39, 42, 44

Matthew 27: 46

D&C 19: 15-19

LDS.org - New Era Article - Do We Know How Much He Went Through?

I praise God that Jesus Christ had the strength, will, and most importantly the love that He was willing to do what was nesessary to give us the opportunity to learn, progress, and ultimately return to God.

I appreciate your patience with me. :)

No problem, I have better organized my thoughts by defending my beliefs. Thank you. I've been listening to some great music and feeling the spirit quite strongly during the study.

Edited May 29, 2010 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

He and We knew Jehovah and honored him for who he was and what he did. He was very special... Abraham 3:24 "and there was one like unto God". Jehovah was an easy leader to follow. He was full of knowledge and understanding. He had insight that we did not, and He had our best intrests in mind and heart. He loved us dearly. And was willing to sacrifice all for us.

But to answer your question, did Adam understand Jehovah's role in the plan? I know that Jehovah himself did not fully understand his role. And that became painfully obvious during Gethesamane.

Matthew 26: 39, 42, 44

Matthew 27: 46

D&C 19: 15-19

LDS.org - New Era Article - Do We Know How Much He Went Through?

I praise God that Jesus Christ had the strength, will, and most importantly the love that He was willing to do what was nesessary to give us the opportunity to learn, progress, and ultimately return to God.

If we fully understood it then there would be no reason to do it. I don't think one can "fully" understand something without actually going through the process. And since Jesus and Adam had never gone through the process there is knowledge gained by experiencing it. If you throw in words like"fully" or "to that extent" of course there is no argument there. As a result of this life we will have added knowledge, although it may not be added until we get back what we previously knew. All we are told to do is have faith and obey, we don't have to fully understand the 'whys' in this life.

Like my male OB doctor will never know what it is like to be pregnant or give birth but his technical understanding surpasses mine. Even if you believe Adam was re-taught the gospel in the Garden I can't imagine that his understanding was anything less than what we 'technically' know about the plan. If God is right there, I can't see how one of our most intelligent brothers would not have asked, "Why is it that I will die if I eat this fruit?" and "If I die, how will it be possible to return to your presence?" He was innocent but he wasn't ignorant.

The experience that we get here is a secondary benefit of our lives. It is not the primary purpose. We can say that because we know that those that die before the age of accountability can still make it into the Celestial Kingdom. In other words, what we learn here is not 'the plan' but the significance of the plan when we are accountable for our choices between good and evil.

We have no basis to say that receiving an immortal body requires relearning everything in the previous life. The only thing we know for sure is that receiving a mortal body is associated with forgetting our time in the pre-existence. Otherwise, when we receive our immortal body after this life, will we forget everything we learned here or again forget everything we learned in the pre-existence? I don't think so. Being put into an immortal, perfect body does not automatically cause forgetting everything.

Why is it important for you to say that Adam didn't know the plan? To me, it is more powerful to say that Adam even knowing what he would put everyone through, still went ahead with it. We know that he was already okay with that just like the rest of us because that was what we had to agree to to keep our first estate. ...thanks

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree with Milkbone on this one. They did not know the plan. Its actually quite obvious, the way I see it.

How is it obvious? If they did not know the plan then they did not eat the fruit intentionally, they did it by accident or on a whim or they really were deceived. ...then praise be to the deceiver for allowing us to be here?!?

[mikbone]

Even if you believe Adam was re-taught the gospel in the Garden I can't imagine that his understanding was anything less than what we 'technically' know about the plan. If God is right there, I can't see how one of our most intelligent brothers would not have asked, "Why is it that I will die if I eat this fruit?" and "If I die, how will it be possible to return to your presence?" He was innocent but he wasn't ignorant.

Adam was taught the Gospel in the cold and dreary world not in the Garden.

Why didn't Adam question God? Maybe he did. But then again. Assume that you had a perfect father that knew everything and had the capacity to read your mind and anticipate your questions. A father that you could completely trust because He had never let you down and never ever did anything that was not perfect. In that circumstance I would probably live on blind faith. Why would I question him?

We have no basis to say that receiving an immortal body requires relearning everything in the previous life. The only thing we know for sure is that receiving a mortal body is associated with forgetting our time in the pre-existence. Otherwise, when we receive our immortal body after this life, will we forget everything we learned here or again forget everything we learned in the pre-existence? I don't think so. Being put into an immortal, perfect body does not automatically cause forgetting everything.

Our pre-mortal existance memories are tied to the Veil. If you have been through a temple endowment ceremony, you have seen a representation of the Veil. The memory wipe occurs when a person passes through the Veil. It does not have anything having to do with receiving a body. Likewise you can only regain your pre-mortal memories by re-entering the Veil. Thus only our brethern that enter the Celestial Kingdom will be re-acquainted with those memories... Although at least a few men have had the privledge to part the Veil during mortality, please see Ether 3:13-21.

Why is it important for you to say that Adam didn't know the plan? To me, it is more powerful to say that Adam even knowing what he would put everyone through, still went ahead with it. We know that he was already okay with that just like the rest of us because that was what we had to agree to to keep our first estate. ...thanks

It is important that we each learn for ourselves why the plan works, for its own sake.

Edited May 30, 2010 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

Adam was taught the Gospel in the cold and dreary world not in the Garden.

Why didn't Adam question God? Maybe he did. But then again. Assume that you had a perfect father that knew everything and had the capacity to read your mind and anticipate your questions. A father that you could completely trust because He had never let you down and never ever did anything that was not perfect. In that circumstance I would probably live on blind faith. Why would I question him?

Our pre-mortal existance memories are tied to the Veil. If you have been through a temple endowment ceremony, you have seen a representation of the Veil. The memory wipe occurs when a person passes through the Veil. It does not have anything having to do with receiving a body. Likewise you can only regain your pre-mortal memories by re-entering the Veil. Thus only our brethern that enter the Celestial Kingdom will be re-acquainted with those memories... Although at least a few men have had the privledge to part the Veil during mortality, please see Ether 3:13-21.

It is important that we each learn for ourselves why the plan works, for its own sake.

Thanks for your response. I see where you are coming from now. I too have had similar thoughts, momentarily, through experiences in the temple. But, I think we have to keep in mind the endowment is made for our mortal existence, to use the symbolism of what happened in the Garden of Eden to liken it to our experience. It isn't intended to be a historical record of what happened in the garden, more helping us understand who we really are and our potential. Almost everything I read about the veil is tied to "mortality." The veil to me is the separation of this unique situation we find ourselves in "mortality" and the immortal world of the eternities. If you want to say there is a third type of existence which is the garden of Eden, fine, but that is not taught in the gospel.

Only when an individual has either passed the test for sure has the veil been parted, like the brother of Jared who had that much faith, or their body was transfigured. Which again, points towards the purpose of the veil, to separate the world of mortality from immortality and to allow us to be tested by faith.

Like I said before, I have never heard that Adam and Eve passed through the veil before they were born here, that is news to me. It has allowed me to ponder it more and I will try to understand how there can be a veil and be in the presence of God, physically, at the same time. For now, that is difficult for me to understand.

[Hemidakota]

I guess I disagree with the premise of this entire thread. The original quoted document is not doctrine. It is a conglomeration of quotes trying to put forth an incorrect concept

Adam and Eve passed through the veil prior to coming to Earth and being set in the Garden of Eden. I do not believe that their pre-mortal memories were intact. I believe that they were born by Heavenly Parents just like everyone else that has been born on this Earth. They were just like my children, intelligent but without knowledge or information. Their brains were empty vessels ready to be filled. Perhaps their situation was singularly different because for some reason they were not yet able to perceive the light of Christ - and for this cause they could not distinguish between good and evil. But although they did not perceive the light of christ they had the companionship of Jehovah during their stay in Eden.

They no doubt grew from childhood to adulthood during their stay in Eden. I believe that they were reared by Heavenly Parents whom educated them. For example they were taught how to tend a garden, build a structure, mine and work metals, general nutrition, medicine, reading and writing, music and the arts, and most importantly comandments and spiritual instruction. Essentially God prepared them fully for the fall that He knew would eventually occur. And even after the fall, He continued to instruct them. The verse (Moses 4:27 Unto Adam, and also unto his wife, did I, the Lord God, make coats of skins, and clothed them.) is a short statement that has lots of meaning. Prior to the fall nothing could die, but the fall changed this. All of creation became mortal. God taught Adam how to hunt. He instructed Adam on how to not only skin the animal, tan and prepare the leather, but He no doubt taught him how to slaughter the animal, cook the flesh, consume the meat, and preserve the remainder of the raw materials, etc. Imagine how this must have left an impression on Adam... Adam had befriended and named this animal while in the Garden. And he knew that his decision and actions had caused the change that required him to slaughter his friends so he could provide for his family.

There is no evidence that any of Adam and Eve's memories were wiped by partaking of the fruit. I guess you could argue that when they were finally kicked out the Garden that there was a partition that was placed between God and them that prevented them from having direct contact with God but this partition did not erase any of their memories.

I'll restate it again. Adam and Eve were veiled prior to being born on Earth in the Garden of Eden. They were taught by the best of instructors while in the Garden, their parents, our parents. But they learned the Gospel during their trial of mortality.

1) Adam was taught the meaning of why he was commanded to offer sacrifice only after he had left the Garden. Moses 5:6-10

2) Adam was baptised after the fall. Moses 6:51-67 Adam finally learns that there is a way for him to be forgiven for his transgressions through baptism and by the Only Begotten even Jesus Christ. This is where Adam is taught the full meaning of the Gospel.

3) Adam was further taught the Gospel and even "an holy ordinance" once again after the fall, Moses 5:59. This holy ordinance I believe is what we now know as the holy endowment.

There is no problem if you believe or disbelieve what happened prior and in the garden. The premise of this thread to have open minds of the various quotes/insights from different brethren in the church. It will only help to foster the Spirit in providing you the answer when you begin to question both the written in the scriptures and what is viewed in the temple with searching for further truths.

[mikbone]

There is no problem if you believe or disbelieve what happened prior and in the garden. The premise of this thread to have open minds of the various quotes/insights from different brethren in the church. It will only help to foster the Spirit in providing you the answer when you begin to question both the written in the scriptures and what is viewed in the temple with searching for further truths.

I use the scriptures and temple narrative as my Gold standard. Are you trying to convince me that I am incorrect?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I use the scriptures and temple narrative as my Gold standard. Are you trying to convince me that I am incorrect?

I agree with Hemi, I think one has to take both of those sources, as well as what is said by general authorities and prophets about the topic to understand how this story relates to our situation here. If you looked at the temple narrative and the scriptures as a "gold standard" you are implying that those two things have all the answers. I don't think they do. They are both symbolic in nature and are to give us a starting point to further understand the meaning of this life. There are many things on the surface about those stories that can't be used as standards for anything because we can't relate them to anything unless you call them symbolic. For example, Adam was formed and breathed life into him and walking, talking (at least opened his eyes - so he was alive) as a combined spirit with body man and then he was put into a deep sleep to take his rib after he was already alive. Why did he have to be put into a deep sleep at that point? According to you the veil was passed before he received his body and yet some interpret the deep sleep to signify forgetting all before? So was it at the point that he first was made a man, or even before that or when he was put into a 'deep sleep' or after that? I don't want to share specific temple information in this forum, but look at the differences between your 'gold standards' as to when Eve was named and by whom and why. And did Lucifer appear as a snake or as a person? Which 'gold standard' do you follow? If you think he appeared as a person, why did Eve accept him as a brother unless she had some understanding of spiritual things. How would she even know what a "brother" was if she was so confused and unknowing of the plan? ... the only way to make sense of these things is to realize that these, as a lot of scripture, is intended to give us a spiritual understanding of the truths and not a play by play, historical accounting.

Just like "innocent like a child" does not mean that they were children just that they were innocent before God, they weren't accountable for their mistakes like children and yet they were adults, because they were married. (D&C 93:38; Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.)

[Justice]

Our memories of the pre-earth life were wiped as well, but we know some of the plan. Adam walked and talked with God. Whether or not his pre-earth life memories were wiped or not, he still had great opportunity to learn from God Himself.

[mikbone]

If you looked at the temple narrative and the scriptures as a "gold standard" you are implying that those two things have all the answers. I don't think they do. They are both symbolic in nature and are to give us a starting point to further understand the meaning of this life. There are many things on the surface about those stories that can't be used as standards for anything because we can't relate them to anything unless you call them symbolic.

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I have been struggling as to how to properly respond to the last few posts. And I guess that there is a time when someone would want to use a secondary or tertiary source instead of a primary source. That would occur when the reader has absolutely no understanding of the nature of prophecy, revelation, symbolism, or personal inspiration.

Joseph Smith History 11 & 12

While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

I have received many answers to questions, conformations and life changing revelations from reading the scriptures and temple sessions. Curiously I cannot recollect a time when I have been similarly inspired by commentary.

Secondary sources are a nice adjunct but it simply can not substitute for the rich depth of information that is found within scripture.