Did Adam and Eve knew of the Plan in the Garden?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Secondary sources are a nice adjunct but it simply can not substitute for the rich depth of information that is found within scripture.

That is an excellent response. I agree and I think most everyone that has posted have very similar beliefs. Like you are saying, I would also not substitute commentary for scripture or temple narrative. But, sometimes, it provides a chance to look at those sources in a new light that may simply reinforce your current understanding. There are some topics that if one gathers too much outside information can act as a catalyst for doubt and tearing away ones testimony.

There are many ways this discussion could help ones testimony. One way, for me, it helps is knowing how far the fall was strengthens my view of what Jesus has done for us. I don't know if we fully know the timing of when these events happened but I think it bolsters one's testimony to say that Adam knew what he was getting himself into and what his role in the plan was, shy of feeling what it feels like to actually go through the steps, just as much as we knew also before we came here to this mortal existence what had to happen to return to live with God. It helps me to know that God isn't pulling us out of a hole that he purposely placed in front of Adam and Eve so that He could be the hero and pull us out of it. It is helpful for me to know, whether it was in the Garden or before, doesn't matter, that Adam chose to be in a position where he could fall for us and allow us to move first downward but then onward.

If we think of Adam's role like he was a drunk driver making poor decisions because he wasn't really "himself" in the Garden, that he was made into a dumbed down version of himself and decided to eat the fruit for reasons based on basic instincts for him which were between obeying the commandment to not eat the fruit versus stay with his wife, I am okay with that. But, just like a drunk driver deciding to drink in the first place, there was a decision at some point to put himself in that position based on knowledge of the full plan, including what Jesus would have to go through. The only thing we are debating is the timing of that decision and the state of mind he was in the moment he ate, was he his full pre-existence memory and knowledge self (but still innocent) or was he a forgetful and innocent self. But, for me at least, that debate doesn't hurt my testimony of the plan and the gospel and I don't think it does yours either.

Thanks for your responses. My eyes have been open to another view. :)

[Hemidakota]

I use the scriptures and temple narrative as my Gold standard. Are you trying to convince me that I am incorrect?

Do you feel this did happen for this earth?

[Hemidakota]

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I have been struggling as to how to properly respond to the last few posts. And I guess that there is a time when someone would want to use a secondary or tertiary source instead of a primary source. That would occur when the reader has absolutely no understanding of the nature of prophecy, revelation, symbolism, or personal inspiration.

Joseph Smith History 11 & 12

While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

I have received many answers to questions, conformations and life changing revelations from reading the scriptures and temple sessions. Curiously I cannot recollect a time when I have been similarly inspired by commentary.

Secondary sources are a nice adjunct but it simply can not substitute for the rich depth of information that is found within scripture.

If latter day prophets are secondary souce, then I would hate to see what is reality.

[mikbone]

Primary Sources - For LDS members the word scripture not only refers to the 4 Standard works of the Church it can also be described as "whatsoever [God's representatives] shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost (D&C 68:2-4, 2 Tim. 3:16). Therefore, anyone who is moved upon by the Holy Ghost while speaking in General Conference and recorded for later reading in the Ensign, including the First Presidency messages, are considered scripture, although they would not be included as part of the Standard works of the Church. "In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, Church publications, and instructions to local priesthood leaders." Gospel Principles Chapter 12

The Hymnal and Temple Endowment is also considered Scripture.

The King Follett Discourse BTW was given during a General Conference...

Secondary Sources - Comentary or Books on doctrinal topics written by General Authorities. E.g. Mormon Doctrine.

Teritary Sources - Comentary or Books written by LDS Scholars. E. g. Alonzo L. Gaskill, 'The Savior and The Serpent', Salt Lake City 2005

Quaternary Sources - Drivel written by guys like myself in websites.

When someone says or writes anything like...

After reading this, active temple members may question the validity of the temple endowment story.

I think to myself - DANGER! DANGER!

[Seminarysnoozer]

Quaternary Sources - Drivel written by guys like myself in websites.

Cool!! I can call myself a quaternary source. Good stuff, Mikbone.

[rickpearce]

I’m a newbie to the forum and I’ve enjoyed this very thought-provoking thread!

However, I’m wondering with all the talk of Adam supposedly knowing the Plan and everything, if someone could explain to me why the Lord Himself describes the cause of the Fall of Adam as the result of Adam yielding to temptation? If Adam chose to partake of the fruit for some wise and righteous purposes, then why doesn’t the Lord commend him for partaking, instead of saying he became subject to Satan’s will by giving into temptation? The Lord says that temptation is a necessary thing for agency but He rightly doesn’t give Adam any accolades for yielding to it.

“Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation” (Doctrine and Covenants 29:39-41)

I believe the definition of temptation would be something like “enticement to evil or weakness”. Doesn’t sound particularly praiseworthy to me. With all due respect to Adam, for the valiant arch-angel he was in the pre-existence, and for the great patriarch that he became after the fall, his action in partaking of the forbidden fruit was portrayed by the Lord as a weakness, a yielding to temptation, a transgression of a commandment, all other opinions to the contrary notwithstanding.

I believe we do doctrine a disservice when we attribute the central causal element of the Fall to anything other than the weakness and propensity to that is inherent in all intelligences endowed with agency: the ability to yield to temptation. As it turns out, Adam and Eve’s weakness is all of our gain. But still it was their weakness that caused it, not their strength. “…for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!” Adam and Eve suffered a lot of woe for their one offence. As do we. But through repentance and through the grace of the atonement it all comes out right in the end.

[Hemidakota]

Rick, welcome to the forum and glad to see you are engaged in the community. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I’m a newbie to the forum and I’ve enjoyed this very thought-provoking thread!

However, I’m wondering with all the talk of Adam supposedly knowing the Plan and everything, if someone could explain to me why the Lord Himself describes the cause of the Fall of Adam as the result of Adam yielding to temptation? If Adam chose to partake of the fruit for some wise and righteous purposes, then why doesn’t the Lord commend him for partaking, instead of saying he became subject to Satan’s will by giving into temptation? The Lord says that temptation is a necessary thing for agency but He rightly doesn’t give Adam any accolades for yielding to it.

“Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation” (Doctrine and Covenants 29:39-41)

I believe the definition of temptation would be something like “enticement to evil or weakness”. Doesn’t sound particularly praiseworthy to me. With all due respect to Adam, for the valiant arch-angel he was in the pre-existence, and for the great patriarch that he became after the fall, his action in partaking of the forbidden fruit was portrayed by the Lord as a weakness, a yielding to temptation, a transgression of a commandment, all other opinions to the contrary notwithstanding.

I believe we do doctrine a disservice when we attribute the central causal element of the Fall to anything other than the weakness and propensity to that is inherent in all intelligences endowed with agency: the ability to yield to temptation. As it turns out, Adam and Eve’s weakness is all of our gain. But still it was their weakness that caused it, not their strength. “…for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!” Adam and Eve suffered a lot of woe for their one offence. As do we. But through repentance and through the grace of the atonement it all comes out right in the end.

I don't think it was a weakness so much as it is a lack of experience. It is kind of like when the 18 year old teenager wants to move out of the house and be on their own. .... "Fine, but if you move out, you will have to be responsible for your own well being and do it on your own." .... the inexperienced teenager would say, "sure, I can do it. I can't wait to do it."

I think we all must think of this life the same way (at least those that chose to follow Heavenly Father's plan). We think of it as an exciting experience and want to take it on with the hopes of achieving great things. But, at the same time, with no experience in it, we don't really understand what it is like and the struggles we face here. On paper though, it sounds exciting and promising. I think that's how Adam and Eve approached it. They were tempted by the outcome of the process but blinded by not understanding that it is a process and it wouldn't happen all of a sudden. Kind of like a teenager who thinks they are going to have the car and the house and the job the moment they walk out of the house. They weren't made "like the Gods" once they ate the fruit exactly but it is true that they then had the opportunity to become like God.

*side note, temptations don't have to be evil, they can simply be things that we want but we are not ready to have them yet, or we want them for the wrong reasons even though the object of desire is not an "evil" thing.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Seminarysnoozer

[rickpearce]

*side note, temptations don't have to be evil, they can simply be things that we want but we are not ready to have them yet, or we want them for the wrong reasons even though the object of desire is not an "evil" thing.

Yes, but we're not talking about the relatively harmless temptation to eat a second bowl of ice cream here. We’re talking about the type of temptation that Satan found necessary to come and beguile Adam and Eve with, and that by yielding to it would cause death and cause them to become “subject to the will of the devil”.

[Justice]

We can clearly see, in doing so, Lucifer thwarted his own plan and aided GOD to succeed. Literally, Lucifer act helped initiate GOD's plan, even though his intent was to frustrate GOD's will. Lucifer help to set up the very circumstance in which the Savior would later 'crush his head' (see Genesis 3:15; Moses 4:21).

This is clearly spelled out in Alma 12.

Lucifer did not thwart his own plan, Adam and Eve thwarted his plan.

Had Lucifer's intention ONLY been to thwart God's plan, all he had to do was leave Adam and Eve in the Garden, untempted. No, he wanted more; he was trying to accomplish HIS plan... yet, it meant he had to carry out God's plan to a point.

First, some background.

Early in chapter 12 Alma is explaining how Satan works. He is about to tell people what Satan's plan was. If you look, he begins, and restates twice, and then is interrupted by Zeezrom with a question about resurrection. So, he returns to the topic of resurrection, which Amulek just taught. Then, another man named Antionah asked another question:

20 But there was one Antionah, who was a chief ruler among them, came forth and said unto him: What is this that thou hast said, that man should rise from the dead and be changed from this mortal to an immortal state, that the soul can never die?

21 What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever.

Obviously, they misunderstood why and when God placed the "guard" on the tree of life. If you look at every account of God placing the guard on the tree of life it is always AFTER Adam and Eve are removed from the Garden and AFTER they already made their choice. So, God did not place the guard to prevent Adam and Eve from partaking. Had God placed the guards to prevent Adam and Eve from eating the tree of life AFTER they partook of the forbidden fruit, they would not have had agency.

Now, follow this closely:

22 Now Alma said unto him: This is the thing which I was about to explain. Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

Alma is saying he was about to explain Satan's plan before he was interrupted. So, now he explains Satan's plan, and the consequences. Notice how he begins by saying that Adam DID partake of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God. And, as a result of this all mankind became lost and fallen.

23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.

Why would Satan want Eve (and Adam) to partake of the forbidden fruit? Why would he tempt them to do so? Because that was the only way that God's other children would come to earth. If Satan is going to rule over all, he needs access to all. So, his plan was exactly the same as Father's up to the point where Eve partook of the forbidden fruit.

God wanted them to fall and become mortal. We know this is the only way for man to be saved at this point. But, why? We'll get back to that.

From this we learn that Satan wanted Adam and Eve to partake of the tree of life immediately after they partook of the forbidden fruit. Why? What were the consequences?

There would have been no mortality, or no death.

Why is this significant?

24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

Had Adam and Eve partaken of the tree of life immediately after the forbidden fruit, there would have been no death, or no probationary state for man to prepare to meet God.

It was expedient that man FIRST be saved spiritually, and then physically.

Had they immediately partaken of the tree of life and became immortal, then a mortal Messiah, or Redeemer could not have been born to redeem man. Thus, mankind was lost and fallen forever. All of the offspring of Adam and Eve would have been born immortal (just like during the Millenium).

25 Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken.

The Plan of Redemption included death, because it included redemtion from death.

26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.

The word of God, or the Word of God, or Christ would have been made void, taking none effect... because He would have been born immortal. It would have been impossible for Him to purge His blood, atone, and die to be resurrected.

27 But behold, it was not so; but it was appointed unto men that they must die; and after death, they must come to judgment, even that same judgment of which we have spoken, which is the end.

28 And after God had appointed that these things should come unto man, behold, then he saw that it was expedient that man should know concerning the things whereof he had appointed unto them;

29 Therefore he sent angels to converse with them, who caused men to behold of his glory.

30 And they began from that time forth to call on his name; therefore God conversed with men, and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which had been prepared from the foundation of the world; and this he made known unto them according to their faith and repentance and their holy works.

I believe they knew as much as it was possible for them to know of the Plan of Redemption while in the Garden of Eden. But, they did not understand death. It wasn't until they had first hand knowledge of spiritual death that they could fully understand the need for a Redeemer. So, then the plan was manifested to them by angels.

I believe what is missing from the Adam and Eve account is Adam and Eve's second choice... NOT to eat the tree of life, and to be removed from the Garden and enter mortality. It had to be a choice, because God did not place the guard on the tree of life until after they were removed.

This is the choice they are honored for, not for the choice of partaking of the forbidden fruit. Although, one led to the other.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Justice

[rickpearce]

...

I believe what is missing from the Adam and Eve account is Adam and Eve's second choice... NOT to eat the tree of life, and to be removed from the Garden and enter mortality. It had to be a choice, because God did not place the guard on the tree of life until after they were removed.

This is the choice they are honored for, not for the choice of partaking of the forbidden fruit. Although, one led to the other.

The reason it’s missing is because they never were given the choice to partake. As soon as they were “caught” the Lord said, “…Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and partake also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, Therefore I, the Lord God, will send him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken” (Moses 4:28, 29). If they were given the choice, then the Lord’s word (that they would die) would become void, which, of course, couldn’t happen. “For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth they must be fulfilled. So I drove out the man, and I placed at the east of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword, which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life.”

[Justice]

I believe that the "guard" not being placed until after they left is evidence they were given a choice. I believe the mandate to be removed from the Garden was for "man" or man's posterity. Men who were born mortal by no choice of their own would be redeemed to immortality by no choice of their own through Christ. Hence, this redemption was already planned for.

[Uncle_Sam]

There was a lady who had a near-death-experience and she met Jesus and many angels. She was shown many things about the past, present, and future. She was actually shown Adam and Eve in the Garden before the fall and she said they knew perfectly well about the plan. Not only did they know, but all the other angels in heaven knew. She said they knew that they had to make the hard choice of keeping one commandment while breaking the other. And while Eve thought they should take the fruit, Adam was reluctant to take it because that would be a direct act against God's commandment. Not only was Eve urging him to take the fruit, but all the other angels were starting to get anxious about it because they knew that was the only way for them to come to Earth and receive bodies. Who knows, maybe we were all there urging him too? Finally, after Satan was allowed to tempt Eve, she basically decided that she was going to take the fruit no matter what, because she knew something had to be done. And with that Adam kind of felt he was forced to agree because they were eternal companions.

The woman's name who had this experience (along with many more) is Betty Eadie. Perhaps you've read her book called 'Embraced by the Light'. I've actually met her a few times as a child because my dad helped her with the book and other things. Now you don't have to believe this if you don't want to, seeing as how I'm not a prophet, and neither is she. I can understand how this may completely go against what some of you may believe. But I for one know that it's true. I've met her and she really is a truly sincere person that only wants God's will to be done. After her experience she's been spreading the message "Above all, love one another", and hasn't stopped since. If you haven't read the book yet then I strongly recommend it. It's a very uplifting book and gives you a sense of hope and love. Also the things she shares about the next life are extraordinary.

But anyways, the answer is yes. I do believe that Adam and Eve knew about the plan^_^

[Hemidakota]

Good morning Justice...

I simply don’t see the connection between what I stated and your reference in the Book of Alma ,chapter 12:21 thru 30. Listen to what the scholars stated, which I coherently agree:

20-21. Antionah's query is actually a valid one: If, according to the earliest scriptural accounts, God prevented Adam and Eve in Eden from partaking of the fruit of the tree of life (and thereby prevented them from living in mortality forever), why would Alma and Amulek speak of the gospel plan as a means whereby men and women could live forever through Christ? Alma, of course, will explain that God did not desire our first parents to live forever in their fallen (unredeemed) condition, but rather made known a plan whereby they could be made ready, after a life of mortality, to enter through Christ into resurrected immortality.

22. By his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people] This is a hard doctrine, one from which too many Latter-day Saints tend to flee. It is the doctrine that Lehi taught (see 1 Nephi 10:4-6), that Benjamin declared (see Mosiah 3:18-19), that Abinadi made known (see Mosiah 16:1-3). that the Brother of Jared professed (see Ether 3:2). It is the burden of scripture, particularly the Book of Mormon. Adam fell. His posterity fell with him, in the sense that all mankind-no one excepted-became, through conception (see Moses 6:55), subject to a fallen nature, a nature which must be put off through sincere repentance unto Christ. Though we are not heir to an "original sin"-a taint that many Christians think entailed upon the posterity of Adam and Eve as a result of their disobedience-we are subject to the Fall and thereby in dire need of redemption. In fact, the Fall and the Atonement are a package deal, a joint doctrine; there is no place in the Book of Mormon where the atonement of Christ is taught wherein the fall of Adam is not also taught or implied. If there had been no fall, there would have been no need for atonement. This is true on an individual as well as a cosmic basis.

23. Mortal or physical death was absolutely necessary in order for the plan of God to be put into effect. As Jacob declared, "Death hath passed upon all men, to fulfill the merciful plan of the great Creator" (2 Nephi 9:6). Death is the final stage of life.

23. The word would have been void, making God a liar] Compare Alma 42:5; see also Moses 3:17.

24. This life became a probationary state] In mortality we are on probation. We are here to be tried, tested, and proved in all things, to see whether we will be obedient to that which the Lord commands us to do. See Abraham 3:25; 2 Nephi 2:21; Alma 42:4.

24. A time to prepare to meet God] See Alma 34:32. In this life we seek to so live that the Holy Ghost, who is the representative and messenger of the Father and the Son can abide with us. Through that Spirit we come to gain the mind of Christ (see 1 Corinthians 2:16)-to think and feel and act as the Father and the Son would under similar circumstances. Through that Spirit we are justified-pronounced innocent from sin, exonerated from fault and declared free from stain; sanctified-cleansed and purified, made holy and free from the effects of sin; and sealed-tied and bound everlastingly into the family of God. The Holy Ghost prepares us to see and enter the kingdom of God, and then in process of time makes of us Saints, sanctified souls prepared to be with and like our Eternal Sire.

24. That endless state] This t a reference to life hereafter, life in the kingdoms of glory, life beyond the resurrection.

25. The plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world] The plan of salvation, that which we know as the gospel of Jesus Christ, is in reality the plan of the Father, the gospel of God. It was preached and its terms and conditions-including the Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement-were known and put into effect before the world was made. See Mosiah 4:6; Mosiah 15:19; Mosiah 18:13.

26. If Adam and Eve had been permitted to partake of the fruit of the tree of life before living out their mortal lives, they would have been taken into immortality without the experience-the pains, the struggles, the opportunities to overcome, the posterity, and thus the joys-of this life. They would have been damned in their progress. And the rest of us would have known no progress; we would have remained forever as unembodied spirits.

29. He sent angels to converse with men] See Moses 5:6; D&C 29:42

30. God conversed with men] "And thus the Gospel began to be preached, from the beginning, being declared by holy angels sent forth from the presence of God, and by his own voice, and by the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Moses 5:58).

Now, good old friend Ludlow, stated;

"In summary of the status of Adam and Eve after the Fall, we find that they had a knowledge of good and evil, that they could have children, that they had suffered spiritual death (were cast out of God's presence), and that they had introduced the seeds of temporal death into their bodies and had thus become mortal.

When viewed in connection with the atonement of Jesus Christ, the Fall of Adam takes on an entirely new light. Instead of thwarting the plan of God, it was the means by which God made it possible for Adam and Eve to have children and therefore for us to come to this earth. It was the means by which God made it possible for us to live in a world of opposition—of good and evil—where we could obtain valuable experience learning to walk by faith out of his presence. It was also the means ordained of God to accomplish his work and glory in connection with this earth: "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39)." (Selected Writings of Daniel H. Ludlow: Gospel Scholars Series by Daniel H. Ludlow, p.326)

So, what was Lucifer plan or design (what scholars call it)? Janne Sjodahl stated the obvious:

“Notwithstanding the evil designs of Satan, the Plan of God triumphed. Lucifer, the enemy of Christ and all that is good, struggled vainly to bring the purposes of God to naught. He it was who sought to frustrate God's Plan of Salvation. He would have all the children of God dwell forever in misery, being subject to the will of the devil. But in spite of Satan's cunning the purposes of God rolled on. God's word was sure! It did not fail. (Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 3, by Janne M. Sjodahl, George Reynolds, p.196)

Misery was the end goal for Lucifer…it was thwarted by not being at a council that was held after Lucifer was casted out. He simply did not know the mind of GOD or the complete plan with counter measures provided (case of transgression). With Lucifer’s hard hearted, filled with much arrogance, know longer in GOD’s presence, and comes with loosing memory or memory removed. What is further evidence; listen to the conversion between GOD and Lucifer after finding him in the garden (temple endowment session). It will resound in what I am referring too and Lucifer previous mode of agenda with other worlds; it does explain the same message that I posted.

[Justice]

Of everything you quoted and stated, I see only one contradiction or disagreement between what I believe, and have said, Alma taught in 12 and 42... and that is this:

20-21.

Antionah's query is actually a valid one: If, according to the earliest scriptural accounts, God prevented Adam and Eve in Eden from partaking of the fruit of the tree of life (and thereby prevented them from living in mortality forever), why would Alma and Amulek speak of the gospel plan as a means whereby men and women could live forever through Christ? Alma, of course, will explain that God did not desire our first parents to live forever in their fallen (unredeemed) condition, but rather made known a plan whereby they could be made ready, after a life of mortality, to enter through Christ into resurrected immortality.

Again:

If, according to the earliest scriptural accounts, God prevented Adam and Eve in Eden from partaking of the fruit of the tree of life

If you believe this, then you also believe God interfered with their agency. If God

prevented

Adam and Eve from partaking of the tree of life immediately after partaking of the forbidden fruit, then He interfered with their agency.

So, regardless of the wording in the scriptures, which can often be misleading, you have to ask yourself, "Would God have interfered with their agency?" Your answer to this question will (must) dictate how you interpret the rest of the scriptures regarding the fall.

I have asked myself this question many, many times, over the period of 20 years or more, and I have finally answered it

no

. This can only mean that He allowed them the choice to partake of the tree of life after partaking of the forbidden fruit.

Now, does scripture support this?

Well, in EVERY case where the scriptures say God placed a cherubim and flamming sword to keep the way of the tree of life, He did so AFTER Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden.

You can argue they were removed from the Garden SO THAT THEY would not partake of the tree of life. You can if you want, but if that were the case, there would be no need to place a guard on it after they left, would there? No, they left

after

making the choice not to, and the guard was placed for

someone else

. Scripture CAN support this, if interpreted accordingly.

I believe God did not take away their agency to follow His plan, or to follow Lucifer's plan. This is the basis for my interpretation.

One more thing, I also take exception to the comment immediately following the one I quoted:

(and thereby prevented them from living in mortality forever)

The person who made this comment did not think it through long enough to realize it is impossible to be mortal and not die. They used a false premise to arrive at a false conclusion.

The fact is, once they partook of the forbiden fruit they became mortal, and they were going to die. Scripture supports this. The

only way

to remedy this was to follow Lucifer's plan for them and eat of the tree of life before having offspring, and before leaving the Garden. That is why it was so appealing to so many when he presented it to pre-mortal spirits. It seemed sound.

This would have eliminated man's mortal probation period. This does NOT mean man would have remained mortal forever, as this supposed expert stated. It means they would have become immortal, with no chance at redemption, for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

However, the rest of the comments you posted, and your comments as well, I agree with.

I had a longer post with more explanation, but I feel it best to stop it here.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yes, but we're not talking about the relatively harmless temptation to eat a second bowl of ice cream here. We’re talking about the type of temptation that Satan found necessary to come and beguile Adam and Eve with, and that by yielding to it would cause death and cause them to become “subject to the will of the devil”.

I would imagine Adam and Eve fought valiantly along side Jesus in the war in heaven before all of this. Their convictions about what was the right path, I would imagine are firmly seared into their hearts. This was not a hard choice, the only thing I think that would be hard about it is not knowing what its like. Again, I liken it to the first day of college, or leaving the house for the first time. We know we have to take those big steps at some point in our lives but by doing so we subject ourselves to a new level of accountability we have never experienced before. Well, for Adam and Eve this was a huge step because they were innocent before, they had no accountability and now they have to become accountable. I think I would definitely be scared and nervous about that choice and wonder if I am ready to do it, unless some temptation came by and said "what are you nervous about, don't you want to be like God?" The means to get to the end requires walking through the 'refiners fire', I don't look at that as punishment but the means to become like God. If one looks at 'death' and separation from God and 'subject to the will of Satan' in this life as punishment, then that person does not understand the plan.

[Justice]

If one looks at 'death' and separation from God and 'subject to the will of Satan' in this life as punishment, then that person does not understand the plan.

Exactly.

Alma 12 and 42 state over and over that death was not only part of the plan, but the driver.

Alma 12:

24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

25 Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken.

26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.

In short, if it weren't for this "state" or "condition" of death, or mortality, God's plan would have been frustrated.

Alma 42:

1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.

2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—

Adam and Eve, or our first parents, were [drawn] out of the garden before the cherubim and flaming sword were placed to keep the way of the tree of life. Notice the guard was in place to keep "the man" from the tree of life.

3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—

This would now be a more general statement, and explains that it is speaking of all men now, since all men, after they are born and eventually sin become as God knowing good and evil, need a mortal life to sin and repent. Since Adam and Eve chose mortality for themselves and all their posterity, we did not make that choice, therefore we are Redeemed from physical death automatically by the merits of Christ. Christ is now the fruit of the tree of life for us.

4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

This probationary state is the state of death, or separation from God.

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

Because there would have been no state of death for man, or no mortal probation period (called death) for man to repent and learn to serve God.

For some reason mortality is the driver.

It is the driver, again, because if Adam and Eve had partaken of the tree of life immediately after eating the forbidden fruit, they would have become immortal, being redeemed from physical death BEFORE they were redeemed from spiritual death (or repented and overcame the natural man).

Because they partook of the forbidden fruit:

7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.

If they were not allowed the choice, at that point, to partke of the tree of life, then they were not free, making the scriptures wrong.

8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.

9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

In short, man had to be redeemed spiritually BEFORE he was reclaimed physically.

If it had happened in the reverse order, it would have meant all mankind was lost and fallen because all men were born into the fallen world as immortals... meaning eventually so would have Christ been morn immortal, making it impossible for Him to suffer, bleed, and die. The Redemption of man would have been impossible because the atonement required a blood sacrifice of the perfect Son of God.

[Justice]

...our Heavenly Mother in her perfect form does not beget children. They have children through baptism, when the child is old enough to make an informed choice - not through birth when they don't know what they are getting into.

Not sure I understand this.

Can you elaborate?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I've always believed that the above is why only fallen beings can beget children. We say that we chose to come to Earth, but really, we didn't. We did not have the knowledge only experience gives - we didn't know what it would be like to have a body - and so we could not really make an informed choice on it.... it's a sin (or at least a transgression) to go against agency... so only a fallen being can go against agency, and get those spirits into something they were unable to make an informed choice on.

jmo.

Jesus is the "only" Son - the only one! and he was begotten through a handmaid... this equates to the fact that (like Eve in her perfect form) our Heavenly Mother in her perfect form does not beget children. They have children through baptism, when the child is old enough to make an informed choice - not through birth when they don't know what they are getting into.

Fallen beings beget fallen beings and spiritual beings beget spiritual beings. We are dual beings, both physical and spiritual. You have to specify which "children" she can't have that you are talking about in regard to our Heavenly Mother. So, yes a corrupted, imperfect fallen body has to be made by another fallen being.

[Justice]

Yes.

A mother with blood flowing through her veins gives birth to children with blood flowing through their veins.

A mother who has a body that is quickened by spirit give birth to children who have bodies that are quickened by spirit.

That's a prerequisite to understand the fall.

[Moksha]

They were exposed to God for I assume many years prior to the fall and they must have been extremely intelligent and taught by the best teacher of all time. They were obviously taught about the Gospel.

Do you suppose they read scriptures from the Book of Mormon everyday?

[Justice]

Yes.

A mother with blood flowing through her veins gives birth to children with blood flowing through their veins.

A mother who has a body that is quickened by spirit give birth to children who have bodies that are quickened by spirit.

That's a prerequisite to understand the fall.

This is why Christ had to be born of a mortal mother.

The rest is reasonable and logical deduction.