Bishops vs Pastors

[prisonchaplain]

Concerning clergy pay...in most evangelical churches pastors hold a bachelor's degree (some higher). In the mainline churches, a 90-credit Master of Divinity is more common. Their pay is most often similar to a public school teacher's, but without the way-cooler hours.

We still do get paid--and LDS bishops don't--but both systems find support in the New Testament, so neither deserve suggestions of underhandedness.

[Maureen]

Here's some information about salary support for Lutheran pastors.

Question

How does a congregation support the pastor, such as salary, health insurance, home, etc.? If the congregation cannot meet the needs of the pastor, then would he have to leave or go to a new church if he was called to do so?

Answer

Carol:

Thank you for your question. Most often, the local congregation does support the pastoral staff through the financial package of salary, housing (either by a “parsonage” owned by the congregation, or through a monetary amount. “Housing” is considered part of “Salary” except for I.R.S. purposes—pastors do get a break on that—which is why it is listed separately), medical, and retirement. The I.R.S. considers pastors “self employed” so they are responsible for their own Social Security payments, but often a congregation will offset this amount to cover what an employer normally covers.

Now, what happens if the congregation cannot meet the financial needs of the pastor? The answer can be a variety of things. Yes, generally, the pastor will need to find another call and the congregation is left looking for someone willing to serve on a part-time basis (or at least except part-time pay). Sometimes, in a situation where a congregation is in a re-energizing phase, or has been targeted for a re-organization, for instance the Synod or District may help, or find help from other sources such as the national church’s mission board. That sort of instance is pretty specific, however, to congregations that are set to undergo significant growth or a refocus of ministry.

What is becoming more and more necessary to help congregations that are small, poor, or both, is the expanded use of lay leadership. Many synods, such as my own in Alaska, or exploring the possibility of training lay people in theology, pastoral care, and leadership, so that they can serve as lay pastors in smaller areas. Many Midwest folks are looking at similar programs.

I hope that this has been helpful for you. Thank you for your interest; please feel free to contact me again if anything is not clear.

Martin

About Martin W. Eldred

Expertise

I have been a Lutheran Christian for 47 years and a Lutheran pastor for almost 19. I can answer most general questions about Luther, Lutheran History, Lutheran Theology, and a Lutheran approach to Biblical Interpretation. I am ELCA, for those who know what that means, and I tend to be moderate theologically. I hope that I can converse with those that are either more conservative or liberal than I, and especially with those who are really just seeking.

Experience

Pastors are "generalists" and generally have a working knowledge on many subjects. We are also used to working with a variety of answers from a variety of people. I teach a great deal, especially in the area ofthe New Testament. I particulalry enjoy the Pauline literature.

Organizations

I have been a member of the Society of Biblical Literature, an international gathering of biblical scholars and teachers, since the late 1980s.

Publications

I have written a few book reviews for the journal, "Lutheran Quarterly."

Education/Credentials

I have a B.A. from Pacific Lutheran University in Religion (Biblical Studies)and a Master of Divinity from Wartburg Theological Seminary.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Lutherans-956/Pastor-financial-support.htm

Salary Survey

Ordained ministers (ELCA pastors and other pastors) serving in congregations June 1, 2009…

Average Salary - $55,246

Median Salary - $55,257

Note: These figures include the base salary, the actual housing allowance paid to the pastor or the value assigned to the church-owned parsonage (30% of the base salary), and any amount designated as a Social Security Allowance.

http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Vocation/Rostered-Leadership/Leadership-Support/Salary-Benefits.aspx

Pastors usually serve fulltime in their calling, very similar to a GA in the LDS church, and GA's get paid. It only makes sense.

M.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Maureen

[Moksha]

Our pastors are not the only priests--rather they are the coaches for their teams of priests.

Neat! Do you ever send in a Hail Mary pass?

[prisonchaplain]

Neat! Do you ever send in a Hail Mary pass?

In Evangelical-speak we call that, "Looks like we'll just have to pray for a miracle..."

[bytor2112]

Oooh Bytor! You're such a cynic! You're going to judge "the majority" of full time Christian clergy by what you perceive the typical "rich megachurch pastor" to be like? Sounds like exactly the sort of thing anti-Mormons get accused of.

And another thing! This is all very rich coming from a "Knight of Darkness" and "Centurion of Evil". (Though you look more like the Silver Surfer to me.) If I didn't know better, I'd say you were the kind of "priest" who wouldn't listen to music played by people who find guitars behind waterfalls.

No judgment.......merely cynical commentary by "Centurion of Evil"...nice! and I am so not one of those Priests!

Edited May 29, 2010 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

Here's some information about salary support for Lutheran pastors.

Pastors usually serve fulltime in their calling, very similar to a GA in the LDS church, and GA's get paid. It only makes sense.

M.

Similarity between a General Authority and a Pastor....hmmm:jawdrop:, well, they might both be men..maybe. Other than that, not really and I am pretty sure serving as a Bishop is a full time calling.

[Maureen]

bytor, so what is it that you have against non-LDS ministers? Is it just the fact that they get paid or is it that they are non-LDS?

M.

[Guest]

GA's get paid? I didn't know that... who pays them?

[Maureen]

GA's get paid? I didn't know that... who pays them?

However, a small number of Mormon Church leaders who are called to full-time service receive a “living allowance.” They did not obtain any special training or degrees and did not apply for a position. When called by Mormon Church officers they leave their full-time employment and generally move to a new location to fulfill their new assignment as directed by their leaders. Those called to full-time service include about 350 mission presidents, who serve for a three-year period and, about 100 General Authorities, who serve full-time from Mormon Church headquarters for various lengths of time. Of this last group, fifteen prophets, seers, and revelators serve until they die. Some General Authorities are independently well-off financially and do not need an allowance. The current practice of providing an allowance to a limited number of individuals for a specific period allows the Church to call people from a larger pool than those who are well-off financially. Once mission presidents and some General Authorities are released from their callings, they return to their employment or move wherever they choose. Upon their return, they are often called to serve as lay leaders in the local Mormon Church organization.

Money for living allowances comes from the income produced by businesses in which the Mormon Church has an ownership interest. To this point, at least, tithing has not been used for this purpose. The amount of mission presidents’ stipends depends on needs and circumstances (missions in New York City and London are more expensive than other places). Interestingly, all General Authorities receive the same allowance: the President of the Mormon Church receives the same as a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy. That said, there is a little extra for the few who have dependent children (x dollars per child). The living allowance is intended to permit a comfortable but modest lifestyle.

The Church’s living-allowance model is based on various scriptural references to “the laborer being worthy of his hire,” a principle that applies both to spiritual and temporal matters (see Doctrine and Covenants 24:3, 7,9; 41:7; and 42:70-73).

Does the Mormon Church Have a Paid Clergy? | Mormon Church

M.

[bytor2112]

bytor, so what is it that you have against non-LDS ministers? Is it just the fact that they get paid or is it that they are non-LDS?

M.

Nothing.....just being obstinate.

[prisonchaplain]

Nothing.....just being obstinate.

Bytor says that present company is exempted from his ire, since my "modest living allowance" is supplied by Caesar.

[anim82r]

I bet any Pastor (Minister) would disagree with you. Most go into the ministry because they feel they are called.

M.

When I was serving a mission here in the Philippines 10 years ago I met a few pastors and ministers. Some of them we were able to teach. One of them confessed that he is convinced the Church is true but that he cannot join the Church for financial reason. He said, "Elders, I know I genuinely feel in my heart that what you told me are all true, but I cannot join your Church. THis is the only income I know--being a pastor. If i leave this religion and join yours my family will go hungry." I was so devastated by that statement and I was about to share Matthew 6:25-33 but for some reason I was not able to do that. Maybe because it really wasn't yet his time to be a member. That sharing the Matthew 6 passage would only make him feel more guilty. Some members of other religion admitted to us that their ministers (some) were not as faithful as the members but that the only reason they stay in their religion is because of the Salary they get. Two weeks ago I spoke to a former pastor who breathed out to me that the reason he left the congregation is that their number is diminishing making his "allowance" thinnner, and mentioned that his fellow pastor in Manila who's congregation includes some big time celebrities receives as much as 100,000 pesos a month! Wow! I'm an animator and I don't get that much salary a month.

Our leaders in the Church are not paid. Their just ordinary people with extra-ordinary callings. Everyday they go to their respective work to make ends meet and to help in building up the Kingdom of God here on earth. They are just volunteers so we don't demand too much from them. After all I think I can say that despite not being paid for their service in the Church, the LDS Church is by far the most organized Christian religion. See for yourself.:)

[prisonchaplain]

IMHO those ministers who confess they stay in for the money did not start out that way. If so, quite frankly, they are foolish. The typical pastor in the U.S. makes roughly what a similary educated public school teacher would earn--but again, without the way-cool hours. My guess is that these confessors usually were true believers who became cynical, may have been hurt, or perhaps, as one poster mentioned, they do indeed mentally convert to something else, but don't see what else they can do.

Personally, if I were convinced another religion were true, I'd rather do something "less," while living the truth, that to keep a modestly comfortable position while living a lie. For the sake of their congregations, I hope these no-longer-believing ministers do find their way out of the hypocrisy they now live in.