Adam-God Doctrine

[Suzie]

I have yet to find any evidence that Joseph Smith practice plural marriage without acknowledging this to Emma.

Emma denied until her death that Joseph Smith ever practiced plural marriage despite the fact he did, therefore you won't find any evidence of what you're looking for.

[InquisitiveSoul]

You never know what the direction a thread is going to take. I expected 2 or 3 answers and thought it might die out rather quickly.

Saguaro, you make a great point. During the years I spent researching and investigating the church, many of the former members I met, both online and in person, felt like they had been betrayed over history issues. I met one man who told me about his Mission and the times he argued with people about Joseph Smith and if he had practiced polygamy and other things he didn't know about the Prophet.

I met 2 dozen Missionaries over the years and rarely did any of them know the way the Book of Mormon was translated. Many of these young men claimed to know everything there was to know about the church and church history.

Ultimately, is a complete knowledge of church history necessary for exaltation? No, but I'd also say the Missionaries should be better informed and more knowledgeable about history as other posters have suggested.

In a sense it's like being a parent, where do you want your kids to learn about sensitive issues, from you or from strangers? When an Anti Mormon source informs a member about sensitive church history, they are doing so with an agenda.

[Hemidakota]

It is nothing to debate about, I have the history materials from narration CDs to written version. I am just looking for the reference for self-edification.

[Hemidakota]

Emma denied until her death that Joseph Smith ever practiced plural marriage despite the fact he did, therefore you won't find any evidence of what you're looking for.

Do I take your word for it? Remember Suzie, it is a two-way street when you demand proof. State the reference material.

[HiJolly]

I have yet to find any evidence that Joseph Smith practice plural marriage without acknowledging this to Emma. He even carried that hand written revelation for ten-years until he was confronted by a ministering spirit and was told to enact what was given.

However, if you can provide any reference that indicates your statement, please post it.

Thanks

The single best source for this information that I know of is Todd Compton's In Sacred Lonliness Amazon.com: In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith (9781560850854): Todd Compton: Books . The second best would be Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith Amazon.com: Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith (9780252062919): Linda King Newell, Valeen Tippetts Avery: Books

I've read both books and while Todd's tone of voice is sometimes annoying, it is still the best I've read.

There is excellent evidence that Joseph did not tell Emma of his sealing to the Partridge sisters in March of 1843. Later Emma consented to the sealings and stood as witness as they repeated the ordinance. The evidence shows that Emma did not realize that is *was* a repeat.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Emma denied until her death that Joseph Smith ever practiced plural marriage despite the fact he did, therefore you won't find any evidence of what you're looking for.

That would be true if Brigham Young et. al. hadn't taken the Nauvoo temple ordinance book when they left for Winter Quarters. It's all written down there, in Masonic cypher.

HiJolly

[Suzie]

Do I take your word for it? Remember Suzie, it is a two-way street when you demand proof. State the reference material.

State the reference material that states Joseph Smith lived Plural Marriage?

If you ever visited the Church genealogy site and you saw the genealogy tree for Joseph Smith Jr, you would have seen the list of all his wives.

Not sure if that's what you are asking?

[Hemidakota]

Hijolley, I am not asking that 'after the fact' when he was told to practice plural marriage but the reference where he did not tell Emma prior before the first initial sealing.

[Suzie]

Hijolley, I am not asking that 'after the fact' when he was told to practice plural marriage but the reference where he did not tell Emma prior before the first initial sealing.

I don't understand your question.

Emma have always DENIED that JS practiced plural marriage.

[HiJolly]

I met 2 dozen Missionaries over the years and rarely did any of them know the way the Book of Mormon was translated. Many of these young men claimed to know everything there was to know about the church and church history.

That was me. I was complete honest and confident in what I knew. And I knew very little, except that which was most precious: The Church is true, Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and a testimony concerning these things is possible for *you*.

In a sense it's like being a parent, where do you want your kids to learn about sensitive issues, from you or from strangers? When an Anti Mormon source informs a member about sensitive church history, they are doing so with an agenda.

I totally agree. But for the general LDS public and without support from SLC on this, and an acceptance for some attrition due to shattered world-view, it'll never happen. IMO.

HiJolly

Edited June 10, 2010 by HiJolly
clarification

[Saguaro]

Do I take your word for it? Remember Suzie, it is a two-way street when you demand proof. State the reference material.

Since you insist, this is the best I could find for now.

He kept the practice veiled from the public and from his wife, Emma. When she discovered that he was taking additional wives, she struggled to accept it.

From: The Wives of Joseph Smith - Emma Hale

The sources cited on this web site can be found here:

The Wives of Joseph Smith

I recently purchased and plan on reading one of those sources, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Newel & Avery.

[Hemidakota]

Where is the reference Emma stated - she always denied PMl? Or, is this your opinion?

Did Joseph Smith began plural marriage without Emma consent?

[HiJolly]

Hijolley, I am not asking that 'after the fact' when he was told to practice plural marriage but the reference where he did not tell Emma prior before the first initial sealing.

I too am struggling to understand your question. I've given the references; You'll need to read it for yourself, Hemi.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Where is the reference Emma stated - she always denied PMl? Or, is this your opinion?

It's in Mormon Enigma .

Did Joseph Smith began plural marriage without Emma consent?

If you mean with the very first sealing, that is a good question and we don't know the answer. As for the other sealings, some she did, I would venture to say *most* she knew about, but we do have evidence that some she did not know about. As I've already mentioned.

HiJolly

[InquisitiveSoul]

That was me. I was complete honest and confident in what I knew. And I knew very little, except that which was most precious: The Church is true, Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and a testimony concerning these things is possible for *you*.

I totally agree. But without support from SLC on this, and an acceptance for some attrition due to shattered world-view, it'll never happen. IMO.

HiJolly

I agree with your opinion on SLC. I'm sure the leaders don't see it as an issue at this time. It may never become a large issue, but some members have lost their testimonies and some of us investigators took much longer to come around because of the ignorance to the history by the very men who are charged with teaching the gospel. How can Missionaries resolve historical concerns when they are completely in the dark over historical issues? These issues held me back and I doubt I'm alone.

I'd suggest members teach their children as they grow up so they aren't blindsided by some of these darker chapters in church history. Joseph Smith was far from perfect and sometimes it seems people get so caught up in the great things he did and forget he was still human and made very human mistakes.

Edited June 10, 2010 by InquisitiveSoul

[InquisitiveSoul]

I also wanted to mention, it's much like HiJolly mentioned, the Elders are honest in believing they know the most important parts of the gospel. From a spiritual standpoint, it is the fundamentals of Faith, Repentence, Baptism, and the Holy Ghost. As the Elders preach these things the spirit will be present and help with the conversion process, but in some situations, the knowledge of church history can become a stumbling block or a test of faith for an investigator. Instead of having Elders who deny or teach false ideas (had one tell me polygamy was started by Brigham Young because there were 5x more women than men in Utah) I think it would benefit the Missionaries to become more familiar with historical facts so they can set the record straight. There are a lot of misconceptions and false ideas being spread both accidently and intentionally.

[Suzie]

Where is the reference Emma stated - she always denied PMl? Or, is this your opinion?

“Any discussion of resistance to polygamy is incomplete if it does not mention Emma Smith's reluctance to accept co-wives. Joseph’s plural marriage revelation went so far as to threaten her with destruction if she did not comply. She responded by reportedly throwing the written revelation into the fire. After Joseph Smith died, she consistently denied that her husband had ever practiced polygamy. According to Lucy Meserve Smith, Emma ‘bore testimony to me that Mormonism was true as it came forth from the servant of the Lord Joseph Smith but said she the Twelve had made bogus of it. She said they were living with their [plural] wives and raising children and Joseph never taught any such doctrine.’ Eventually Emma Smith allowed the majority of Mormons under the leadership of Brigham Young to migrate west without her. She later became a member of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headed by her son, Joseph Smith III” (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol.27, No.1, pp.25-26).

Many more references if you seek online. She believed Plural Marriage was actually an idea of Brigham Young.

[HiJolly]

Many more references if you seek online. She believed Plural Marriage was actually an idea of Brigham Young.

I disagree. She knew the truth about Plural marriage, from Joseph himself. She just denied it in conversation with others, particularly after Joseph's death.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Many more references if you seek online. She believed Plural Marriage was actually an idea of Brigham Young.

Actually, this is a merely a scholar opinion being stated. Yes, she did deny it to her children after Joseph death but it was not the case when she fought against it and then bitterly broke down after prayer with the Lord gave her blessing to Joseph in humility.

Take a look and read the material from an apostle who lived in that day, name Orson Pratt, who gave talk regarding who knew about it and her deny it ever happen from her latter children later after his death.

Journal of Discourses Vol. 13, page 194. [see page 228-229]

Volume 13 | Journal of Discourses

[Hemidakota]

I disagree. She knew the truth about Plural marriage, from Joseph himself. She just denied it in conversation with others, particularly after Joseph's death.

HiJolly

This is why I asked for a reference.

[Hemidakota]

Since you insist, this is the best I could find for now.

From: The Wives of Joseph Smith - Emma Hale

The sources cited on this web site can be found here:

The Wives of Joseph Smith

I recently purchased and plan on reading one of those sources, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Newel & Avery.

Nice website. Thanks again for the provided links.

FOR OTHERS HERE - some oddity within what is being stated on how could it be possible for Joseph Smith to be sealed to other wives prior to sealing of Joseph first wife, Emma Hale Smith? Take a look at the provided references and let me if this is an issue;

“In the relative stability of Nauvoo, Joseph would try to establish polygamy, a practice he had flirted with in Kirtland and Missouri. Between the years 1841 and 1843, Joseph would marry more than thirty wives.” [1]

Now from an Ensign article written by Emma's great-great granddaughter, personal history of Emma's life;

28 May 1843 - Emma sealed to Joseph for eternity.

31 Aug 1843 - Smiths move into the Mansion House.

28 Sep 1843 - Emma receives her endowments. [2]

We can reference historical, D&C 132 was recorded in August of 1843, but this revelation was received back in 1831.

Intrinsically, this was seen far back on whom to marry by revelation of the Lord by name;

“The things the Prophet beheld in vision were many and varied. After reading a book on the Christian martyrs, he returned it to its owner with the comment, "I have, by the aid of the Urim and Thummim, seen those martyrs, and they were honest, devoted followers of Christ, according to the light they possessed, and they will be saved." By vision Joseph beheld that he and several of his associates descended through related blood lines that ran back through the aristocracy of Europe. He also beheld that they were lawful heirs of the priesthood by birth. Furthermore, "the women who entered into plural marriage with the Prophet Joseph Smith were shown to him and named to him as early as 1831." So reported Joseph F. Smith, at the time a Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church; he added, "And when the Lord showed those women to Joseph some of them were not even acquainted with the Church much less him." [4]

The recorded date was May 1843 when Lucy Walker was sealed in his home. If it was done in his home, Emma must of been present but again, the dates of having a sealing perform prior to an temple sealing between the first wife and a plural wife. Is this allowed in having other plural wives be sealed prior to Emma,; being the first wife and without consent?

I can positively state, on indisputable evidence, that Joseph Smith was the author, under God, of the revelation on plural marriage. On this subject, we have the affidavit of William Clayton, private secretary of Joseph Smith, that he wrote the revelation as it was given through the lips of the prophet and that he himself sealed to Joseph Smith as a plural wife, Lucy Walker, at Joseph Smith's own residence, on May 1, 1843. This lady is still living, in Salt Lake City, and is willing to testify at any moment to this fact. Following are some of the names of young ladies who were sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, as testified to under oath by themselves—this during the lifetime of the prophet: Eliza R. Snow, Sarah Ann Whitney, Helen Mar Kimball, Fanny Young (sister to Brigham Young), and Rhoda Richards (sister to Willard Richards who was with the prophet at his martyrdom in Carthage jail). All these noble women have testified, under oath, giving names and dates, that they were sealed during his lifetime, to the Prophet Joseph Smith. These facts have been published in Jenson's Historical Record, and in the Deseret News, in years past; and I know, by the established and virtuous character of these noble women, that their testimonies are true.

A careful reading of the revelation on plural marriage should convince any honest man that it was never written by Brigham Young, as it contains references to Joseph Smith himself, and his family, which would be utterly nonsensical and useless if written by President Young. The fact is, we have the affidavit of Joseph C. Kingsbury, certifying that he copied the original manuscript of the revelation within three days after the date on which it was written. I knew Joseph C. Kingsbury well. Furthermore, the revelation was read by Hyrum Smith to a majority of the members of the High Council, in Nauvoo, at about the time it was given, to which fact we have the sworn statements of the members of the High Council.—Improvement Era, Vol. 5, October, 1902, p. 988.

Here, it does mentioned the first sister to be taken in plural marriage was Fanny Alger during 1830s but no real proof of such was given.

Evidence for the practice of plural marriage during the 1830s is scant. Only a few knew about the still unwritten revelation, and perhaps the only known plural marriage was that between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger. Nonetheless there were rumors, harbingers of challenges to come. [5]

Last, being Apostle during Joseph life, I would think it would needful in listening to a person who was a first hand witness to the event;

Even those closest to Joseph Smith were challenged by the revelation. After first learning of plural marriage, Brigham Young said he felt to envy the corpse in a funeral cortege and "could hardly get over it for a long time" (JD 3:266). The Prophet's brother Hyrum Smith stubbornly resisted the very possibility until circumstances forced him to go to the Lord for understanding. Both later taught the principle to others. Emma Smith vacillated, one day railing in opposition against it and the next giving her consent for Joseph to be sealed to another wife (see comments by Orson Pratt, JD 13:194).

Reference Notes

1] The Wives of Joseph Smith - Emma Hale

2] LDS.org - Ensign Article - My Great-Great-Grandmother, Emma Hale Smith

3] Doctrine and Covenants 132

4]. Journal History, February 17.1882; Deseret News, February 17, 1882. Cited in John A. Widtsoe, Joseph Smith, Seeker after Truth (Salt Lake City, 1951), p. 236-237

5] Encyclopedia of Mormonism 4 vols. by Daniel H. Ludlow

[Suzie]

I disagree. She knew the truth about Plural marriage, from Joseph himself. She just denied it in conversation with others, particularly after Joseph's death.

HiJolly

Why she would then teach her own kids that Joseph never taught and practiced Plural Marriage?

[Suzie]

I agree Emma denied it publicly but personally I am not sure if she truly believed in the principle. As a matter of fact she approved some of these marriages to right after change her mind. There is no doubt that she was not sure.

[HiJolly]

Nice website. Thanks again for the provided links.

Furthermore, "the women who entered into plural marriage with the Prophet Joseph Smith were shown to him and named to him as early as 1831." So reported Joseph F. Smith, at the time a Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church; he added, "And when the Lord showed those women to Joseph some of them were not even acquainted with the Church much less him." [4]

4]. Journal History, February 17.1882; Deseret News, February 17, 1882. Cited in John A. Widtsoe, Joseph Smith, Seeker after Truth (Salt Lake City, 1951), p. 236-237

Same thing happened to my GGrandfather David _____, who had this revealed to him at the time he embraced the Second Comforter on Hurricane hill in the late 1800's. At the time, he had only one wife, but was shown the other 3 women who would also be sealed to him, their names, everything.

Interesting! I had not known that this happened to Joseph.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Why she would then teach her own kids that Joseph never taught and practiced Plural Marriage?

Personally?

I think it was because she was ashamed of her involvement in it. I cannot fault her; not in the least.

HiJolly