Is knowledge important to our salvation?

[Hemidakota]

This is a typical question some of us would be asked by members or non-members of the church. I don’t recall who wrote the below summarization, but the value of such, by a founding restoration Seer/Prophet Joseph Smith, had some unusual points in his last sermon. I now make it a point, to gather all the sermons during Joseph’s day. I would be glad, if Joseph Smith Papers Team, would ‘hurry up’ and translate the remaining journals of the last years of Joseph life. But getting back to point, at what point is knowledge considered a high priority for exaltation?

Here are other striking passages from his last sermons:

"Every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council of heaven before this world was. I suppose that I was ordained to this very office in that Grand Council."

"I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. It will not be by sword or gun that the kingdom will roll on. The power of truth is such that all nations will be under the necessity of obeying the gospel."

"Had I inspiration, revelation, and lungs to communicate what my soul has contemplated in times past, there is not a soul in this congregation but would go to their homes and shut their mouths in everlasting silence on religion till they had learned something."

"That which hath been hid from before the foundation of the world is revealed to babes and sucklings in the last days. * * *

"Angels desire to look into these mysteries."

No prophet or master of theology ever so emphatically taught his Church that knowledge was absolutely necessary to salvation.

"Knowledge saves a man, and in the world of spirits no man can be exalted but by knowledge!"

"The first key of exaltation is knowledge!" He taught that "intelligence is the pathway up to the Gods," and that it was superior intelligence that first constituted God or the Gods. See the wording of his philosophy on this:

"God himself, finding he was in the midst of Spirits and glory because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself."

The Masters of Greece could not have opened a better Genesis of the Gods than Joseph did, nor Socrates or Plato have laid a broader foundation for a philosophic church. Plato's master taught his disciples, "Ignorance is vice!" Joseph that "knowledge" is the first step of the ladder to heaven! Here are his own footsteps upward:

"Paul knew a man who had been caught up to the third heaven and saw and heard things unlawful to be uttered. I know a man who was caught up to the seventh heaven, and saw and heard things unlawful to be uttered."

If you noticed the phrase "THIRD HEAVEN" vice "SEVENTH HEAVEN", does anyone have a clue on what is being stated here by Joseph Smith?

[Dravin]

To answer the question in the title:

It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

That said it's talking about gospel knowledge not that a man can't be saved without an understanding of calculus.

L. Tom Perry explains LDS.org - Liahona Article - Learning to Serve :

When Joseph Smith said that a man cannot be saved in ignorance, he meant naturally ignorance of the laws which all together lead to salvation.

Of course now you are gonna get a debate over whether a proper and full understanding of some doctrine is a prerequisite or not.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Dravin

[Vanhin]

If you noticed the phrase "THIRD HEAVEN" vice "SEVENTH HEAVEN", does anyone have a clue on what is being stated here by Joseph Smith?

Well, exaltation is salvation in the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom. But that's only six, or technically 5. Telestial, Terrestrial, Celestial_1, Celestial_2, and Celestial_3. Maybe there are three degrees within the Terrestrial world as well. Then it would be seven. The Telestial has too many degrees to count them, "as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world" (D&C 76:98).

Regards,

Vanhin

[Traveler]

Often how a question is asked can cause someone to be misguided or turned from the truth.

Mostly we think of knowledge as an empirical thing relating to things that are real in our universe. We do not need specific knowledge for salvation. What we do need is a spiritual ability to be drawn towards divine enlightenment. That we must “know” every doctrine of G-d is not necessary but what is necessary is that we have faith in G-d to enlighten us that we can prepare ourselves to live higher laws with G-d and as G-d lives by such divine law.

If I can make an analogy – we do not have to understand every doctrine and truth about electrons and the flow of electricity to be able to hit a switch and turn on a light so we can be saved from darkness.

The Traveler

[ryanh]

at what point is knowledge considered a high priority for exaltation?

Clearly it doesn't have to happen within this probationary state. Else, why would we do baptisims for the dead at all? If knowledge were required in the here and now, would they for whom we are doing baptisims not be damned anyway having died in ignorance? And, why would the Savior open the prisions to preaching?

[Hemidakota]

To answer the question in the title:

That said it's talking about gospel knowledge not that a man can't be saved without an understanding of calculus.

L. Tom Perry explains LDS.org - Liahona Article - Learning to Serve :

An excellent point Apostle L. Tom Perry states,

The scriptures tell us that it is impossible for man to be saved in ignorance (see D&C 131:6). This principle is greatly misunderstood. Elder John A. Widtsoe (1872–1952) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles wrote:

“There are of course many kinds of knowledge; some of lesser, some of higher value. When Joseph Smith said that a man cannot be saved in ignorance, he meant naturally ignorance of the laws which all together lead to salvation. Such knowledge is of the highest value. It should be sought after first. Then other kinds of knowledge may be added to support and amplify the more direct knowledge of spiritual law. For example, it is a duty of the Church to preach the gospel to all the world. This however requires the aid of railroads, steamships, printing presses, and a multitude of other things that make up our civilization. A knowledge of the gospel is the missionary’s first need, but the other needs, though lesser, help him perform better the divine injunction to teach the gospel to all people” (Evidences and Reconciliations, arranged by G. Homer Durham [1987], 224).

Even this statement, resounds my own thoughts of what is important for our salvation was made by President Kimball in this article, I often have to remind the youth the importunacy of building a firm gospel foundation first before placing to much precedence with secular knowledge as the foundation.

President Kimball further stated:

“Now this mortal life is the time to prepare to meet God, which is our first responsibility. Having already obtained our bodies, which become the permanent tabernacles for our spirits through the eternities, now we are to train our bodies, our minds, and our spirits. Preeminent, then, is our using this life to perfect ourselves, to subjugate the flesh, to subject the body to the spirit, to overcome all weaknesses, to govern self so that one may give leadership to others, and to perform all necessary ordinances. …

“… After our feet are set firmly on the path to eternal life we can amass more knowledge of the secular things. …

“… A highly trained scientist who is also a perfected man may create a world and people it, but a dissolute, unrepentant, unbelieving one will never be such a creator even in the eternities.

“Secular knowledge, important as it may be, can never save a soul nor open the celestial kingdom nor create a world nor make a man a god, but it can be most helpful to that man who, placing first things first, has found the way to eternal life and who can now bring into play all knowledge to be his tool and servant” (President Kimball Speaks Out, 90–92).

Edited June 9, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Clearly it doesn't have to happen within this probationary state.

How would this fit in for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in by-passing that state?

[Moksha]

Seventh Heaven is a concept borrowed from Islam.

[Hemidakota]

Actually, it was before Islam, this is seen in the Book of Enoch with the same usage. I wondering if Islam borrowed it from earlier writings.

[Traveler]

Seventh Heaven is a concept borrowed from Islam.

Actually the concept of 7th heaven predates Islam and is understood from ancient solar calendars used in many civilizations - including the Mayan and in Israel (Book of Enoch). In ancient solar calendars the sun rises and sets in 6 gates that create the 12 months of the year because in a complete cycle the sun will rise and set in the gates twice. The gates are considered the gates of heaven. But it was also known anciently that G-d resides in a heaven above all the heavens through the 6 gates the sun uses. The heaven of G-d’s resident is therefore the 7th heaven.

The Traveler

[Moksha]

Actually, it was before Islam, this is seen in the Book of Enoch with the same usage. I wondering if Islam borrowed it from earlier writings.

Had to do some checking and found mention of a Seventh Heaven mention in the 2nd Book of Enoch. Specifically this was mentioned:

In the first section (chapters 1-21) Enoch, when already at the age of 365, is taken by two angels and made pass through the seven heavens, one by one. The first heaven is found to be the place where the angels control atmospheric phenomena. In the second heaven he finds the prison for the rebel angels. In the third heaven he finds both paradise (as in 2 Cor 12:2) and hell for the men. The fourth heaven is the place of movements of the sun and of the moon which are described in detail. In the fifth heaven Enoch finds some Grigori that are grieved and he persuades them to resume their liturgical service. In the sixth heaven he finds the angels in charge of governing the cosmos and peoples.

In the second section (chapters 22-37) Enoch, now guided by Gabriel, is allowed to enter in the seventh heaven where he sees the Lord face to face. Afterwards he is anointed by Michael and becomes similar in appearance to the angels. The Lord asks the angel Vereviel to dictate to Enoch 360 books containing all that is knowable. Later, the Lord himself tells to Enoch the secrets of the creation up to the flood, which are unknown even to the angels. Enoch is finally sent back on the earth for thirty days.

The theological universe of 2 Enoch is deeply rooted in the Enochic mold of the Jewish Apocalyptic literature of the Second Temple period. Yet along with appropriations of ancient traditions about the seventh antediluvian hero, the text attempts to reshape them by adding a new mystical dimension to the familiar apocalyptic imagery.

[Hemidakota]

Thanks. I was lazy yesterday, with retrieving the exact verses.

Interesting though, why didn't Mohammad did not see the Christ [Lord]? Or, was this intentionally left out, knowing, what every gospel was given by the Master, Mohammad would have to follow. Being a restoration prophet if one would claim it, wouldn’t the Savior would reveal Himself to [called] prophet before any angel or ministering spirit? Questions…more questions!

Edited June 10, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Seminarysnoozer]

An excellent point Apostle L. Tom Perry states,

The scriptures tell us that it is impossible for man to be saved in ignorance (see D&C 131:6). This principle is greatly misunderstood. Elder John A. Widtsoe (1872–1952) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles wrote:

“There are of course many kinds of knowledge; some of lesser, some of higher value. When Joseph Smith said that a man cannot be saved in ignorance, he meant naturally ignorance of the laws which all together lead to salvation. Such knowledge is of the highest value. It should be sought after first. Then other kinds of knowledge may be added to support and amplify the more direct knowledge of spiritual law. For example, it is a duty of the Church to preach the gospel to all the world. This however requires the aid of railroads, steamships, printing presses, and a multitude of other things that make up our civilization. A knowledge of the gospel is the missionary’s first need, but the other needs, though lesser, help him perform better the divine injunction to teach the gospel to all people” (Evidences and Reconciliations, arranged by G. Homer Durham [1987], 224).

Even this statement, resounds my own thoughts of what is important for our salvation was made by President Kimball in this article, I often have to remind the youth the importunacy of building a firm gospel foundation first before placing to much precedence with secular knowledge as the foundation.

President Kimball further stated:

“Now this mortal life is the time to prepare to meet God, which is our first responsibility. Having already obtained our bodies, which become the permanent tabernacles for our spirits through the eternities, now we are to train our bodies, our minds, and our spirits. Preeminent, then, is our using this life to perfect ourselves, to subjugate the flesh, to subject the body to the spirit, to overcome all weaknesses, to govern self so that one may give leadership to others, and to perform all necessary ordinances. …

“… After our feet are set firmly on the path to eternal life we can amass more knowledge of the secular things. …

“… A highly trained scientist who is also a perfected man may create a world and people it, but a dissolute, unrepentant, unbelieving one will never be such a creator even in the eternities.

“Secular knowledge, important as it may be, can never save a soul nor open the celestial kingdom nor create a world nor make a man a god, but it can be most helpful to that man who, placing first things first, has found the way to eternal life and who can now bring into play all knowledge to be his tool and servant” (President Kimball Speaks Out, 90–92).

I agree with this. I think it is easier to appreciate this when one realizes that our fund of knowledge before this life likely is more than anyone has had in this world. The veil blocks all of that. I tend to think any spirit, even the slowest among us, would be considered a genius many times over what anyone has accomplished here in this life. I suppose it depends on how fallen we are. That fallen state is needed to test the core of our being without being able to figure out the answer on logical and historical information alone. It's kind of like what you learn about a person when they are coming out of anesthesia.

[Hemidakota]

Actually the concept of 7th heaven predates Islam and is understood from ancient solar calendars used in many civilizations - including the Mayan and in Israel (Book of Enoch). In ancient solar calendars the sun rises and sets in 6 gates that create the 12 months of the year because in a complete cycle the sun will rise and set in the gates twice. The gates are considered the gates of heaven. But it was also known anciently that G-d resides in a heaven above all the heavens through the 6 gates the sun uses. The heaven of G-d’s resident is therefore the 7th heaven.

The Traveler

Then, it is where GOD presides. Yes?

If anyone sees the throne of GOD, and Christ, he/she has witnessed the seventh heaven. Is that correct?

[Hemidakota]

I agree with this. I think it is easier to appreciate this when one realizes that our fund of knowledge before this life likely is more than anyone has had in this world. The veil blocks all of that. I tend to think any spirit, even the slowest among us, would be considered a genius many times over what anyone has accomplished here in this life. I suppose it depends on how fallen we are. That fallen state is needed to test the core of our being without being able to figure out the answer on logical and historical information alone. It's kind of like what you learn about a person when they are coming out of anesthesia.

Concur with anesthesia affect. Even when we failed to repent, or really, we refuse to repent, any knowledge given will be removed and this anesthesia affect becomes more prevalent with time. I can only guess, this is why journalism is vastly important for us to what we have learned on paper during those 'darken years'.

Getting back to our desires, if Abraham desire to learned what the Patriarchs knew, at what point [knowledge] would this help him to by-pass the day of judgment? Remember, Abraham did not come to the prophet Joseph Smith to turned his dispensation keys to him. It was Elias who came to Joseph for Abraham.