When The Missionaries Came To My Door

[prisonchaplain]

I recall that about three months ago two female Mormon missionaries came to my door, and one asked, “So, what have you heard about our church?” She asked with a smile, but was probably ready either way. Well, in light of having read “How Wide the Divide,” and having spent three months hashing out our different understandings of key doctrines, I thought it would be healthy to look at what I had heard, and what I have come to understand. It might help some here see the fruit of the time and effort they put into this site.

1. What had I heard about Mormon soteriology? (Beliefs about salvation)

I had heard that Mormons believe in three heavens, that only married Mormons get into the highest heaven, that all sincere religious people get into the 2nd heaven, and that those that were not very righteous or god-fearing, but who had not been truly wicked would be assigned the 3rd heaven. Only the truly evil persons, like Hitler would be damned to the outer darkness.

How has my understanding changed? I’ve come to understand the importance for Mormons of temple work on behalf of the dead, so that many who might not be Mormons in this life, still might embrace the restored gospel in the afterlife–though many would suggest that only those who did not have a good opportunity to embrace Mormonism in this life would be afforded such an opportunity. Furthermore, it is not the only truly wicked who go to the outer darkness, but those who had a testimony and knowledge of the truth, but abandoned it, or even opposed it.

2. What had I heard about Mormon beliefs about the nature of God?

I had heard that Mormons are polytheist–that they believe that God was once a man, and that Mormon men are trying to become gods. Also, that God has a physical body, and lives on a planet near KOBOL. That God is limited and changing in nature.

How has my understanding changed? I’ve come to understand that Mormons consider themselves Trinitarians and monotheists. They believe that God is three in one, but that these three are not only distinct personalities, but distinct beings. Furthermore, while Mormons may believe there are other gods, they only worship the God of the Bible, and further believe that while they may become gods, they will always worship the God of the Bible for all eternity. Finally, they do not believe God has changed, because they argue that both God and humanity are immortal. Thus, even if God was once a man, he always was, is, and always will be.

3. What had I heard about the Mormon restored gospel?

I had heard that Joseph Smith claimed that all Christian churches, preachers and professors were apostate, and an abomination to God, and that only the Mormon church is the true Christian church today.

How has my understanding changed? I now understand that Joseph Smith, and modern Mormons, were most enraged by what they saw/see as the elevation of creeds and Greek theological definitions over the plain truths of Scripture. It is this insistence on flawed interpretation–especially the use of such against Mormon distinctives that Smith and the Church considered abominable. Many progressives now consider Christians, especially evangelical Christians, to simply be wrong, and in need of greater truth (as was Apollos, in the New Testament). Some Mormons are still wary of the level of goodness in evangelicalism, especially in light of the many evangelical anti-Mormon organizations and initiatives.

4. What had I heard about Mormon views of authority?

I add this question, because my answer is, “Not much.” I only knew that Mormons had two priesthoods, the Aaronic and Melchezidek (sp?) orders, and that the latter was for more mature members.

What have I learned? That for the members who have wrestled with the intellectual appeal of Mormonism, this issue is quite often the crux of their decision to follow the LDS Church. The teaching is that after the apostles, the church fell into apostasy, and never really came out of it until the Latter Day truths were revealed to Joseph Smith, and the true gospel was restored. As such, only Mormons have the ultimate authority from God to represent Christ and carry out his work. While there are some significant differences, this teaching is not as strange as it first sounds to evangelical ears, because Roman Catholics also teach apostolic succession, and claim that only the Roman church has the ultimate spiritual authority.

Conclusion: As an outsider, not sufficiently versed in Mormon Scriptures, I’m sure I still explain Mormon ideas with a good deal of clumsiness and imprecision. However, I’ve probably garnered a better understanding than I might have had I read the totality of anti-cult or specifically anti-Mormon material that is out there.

Thanks to all that have helped me grow in understanding here, and blessings to you that have taken the time to engage my inquiries, as well as my explanations of my own faith tradition.

[Aristotle]

Now for the Golden Question: When would you like to be baptised, PrisonChaplain? LOL

The end of your post sounded like a goodbye...I hope you're not leaving, as I truly enjoy reading your posts.

I do have a legitimate question to ask, if I may. What is your concept or perception of a woman's role in the LDS Church, in the early days and presently.

Thanks,

- Mrs. A

[Amphiblitz]

What was that first visit by the missionaries like for you anyway? Did you invite them back, go through the discussions, etc?

[Palerider]

PrisonChap....when I read your post I also took it as if you were leaving.....hope thats not true.....

[BenRaines]

PC,

Sounds like you have rec'd a pretty good education in the time you have spent here and other places. I would be curious to hear, and I know you have covered it in various posts, how your viewpoints differ from ours, those who are active LDS.

[Red]

Yeah dude, I just got back and now you're going?! Hope not...

[prisonchaplain]

Now for the Golden Question: When would you like to be baptised, PrisonChaplain? LOL

You do realize that if that ever happens it will be my 4th?

Infant baptism in Lutheran Church (parents were not church going, but grandma was appeased)

Believer's baptism at 16

Baptism in the Holy Ghost at 14

The end of your post sounded like a goodbye...I hope you're not leaving, as I truly enjoy reading your posts.

No, I'm not leaving. I suppose sacharrine gratitudes can sound like goodbye speeches.

I do have a legitimate question to ask, if I may. What is your concept or perception of a woman's role in the LDS Church, in the early days and presently.

I had understood that Mormon women could NOT become gods. I'm less certain that is so, now. Other than that, just the typical: having lots of children, marry young, and yes, all the latest media hype about depressed Utah women (ironically, I believe anti-Mormons have been trafficing that theme for at least two decades).

What was that first visit by the missionaries like for you anyway? Did you invite them back, go through the discussions, etc?

Nothing like that. It was kinda strange. What I told them was that I had heard some things, but was satisfied with our current church. Then they asked if I needed anything, to which I said, "Not really." That was it. B)

PrisonChap....when I read your post I also took it as if you were leaving.....hope thats not true.....

I guess my old high school teacher will have to retract my good grades, and change them to an F+/D-! Can't somone say thanks without people offering to pack my bags?

[prisonchaplain]

Ben asked me how my beliefs differ from active LDS ones. I'll use the same questions, but put my understandings.

1. What had I heard about Mormon soteriology? (Beliefs about salvation)

Salvation comes with repentence and confession of faith in Jesus Christ. The believer must endure to the end, or can lose their salvation. However, the losing of salvation is not an easy rode, because God chases after us, drawing us back. Nevertheless, we are called to work out our salvation daily, and repeatedly to endure to the end (especially in Revelation 2-3).

2. What had I heard about Mormon beliefs about the nature of God?

The key differences are that I believe that God the father is Spirit, and does not have a body. That His nature has not changed--not even from before time. While in many ways believers will become more like God after the resurrection, they will never become gods, such that others might worship them. Jesus has always been the Son of God, and was not created. He also has always existed as God. He did experience the incarnation--becoming God in the flesh. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, but are one being. In contrast, humans are not immortal, and I do no believe we existed prior to conception.

So, the bottom line is that I would see a greater distinction between God and man, and a less rigid separation between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

3. What had I heard about the Mormon restored gospel?

While I would accept that the church experienced its share of heresies, ungodly actions, etc. throughout its 2000 year history, I do not see a universal apostasy that required a radically different set of beliefs, and a whole new institution, that would be considered the only true hold of the latter day gospel. I believe the apostasy that Scripture prophecies will occur during the Tribulation, when the Antichrist brings about a great delusion, and a one-world religion.

4. What had I heard about Mormon views of authority?

I believe Jesus gave authority to all believers to represent him, to win souls, to do his work. I view my role as a clergyperson as coaching the members in how to be ministers to a lost and dying world. This belief is something the Baptists tend to call, "The Priesthood of all Believers."

[Amphiblitz]

<div class='quotemain'>

What was that first visit by the missionaries like for you anyway? Did you invite them back, go through the discussions, etc?

Nothing like that. It was kinda strange. What I told them was that I had heard some things, but was satisfied with our current church. Then they asked if I needed anything, to which I said, "Not really." That was it. B)You should invite them over for dinner or something some time. If you can come here and have the kind of open discussions with us that you do, you'd like talking with missionaries, too (methinks).

[Josie]

PC,

I always appreciate your posts and your willininess to hear the other side. Thank you for also sharing own beliefs that differ from ours. It is a pleasant experience to have someone that earnestly seeks the truth out concerning the LDS Church from people that are active LDS, instead of turning to anti mormon literature or people that have left the church in anger. Some people don't understand that when you truly want to know about something, you don't go to someone that is angry with it or putting it down, but actually to the source itself.

[Aristotle]

I had understood that Mormon women could NOT become gods. I'm less certain that is so, now. Other than that, just the typical: having lots of children, marry young, and yes, all the latest media hype about depressed Utah women (ironically, I believe anti-Mormons have been trafficing that theme for at least two decades).

Yes, that's true. Mormon women cannot become gods...we become goddesses! And thank you for answering my question. The Mormon women on Prozac issue is legitimate, unfortunately. When I inquired about this from a sister in our women's auxilliary, she said that nearly all of the women [in the women's organization in that ward] are on Prozac. Something is definitely not "well in Zion". And I'm not an anti-Mormon, I'm not depressed, and I'm not on Prozac (or any other meds)...nor am I angry. I'm not popular in my ward (or on this board, apparently LOL), and am known for being outspoken and assertive. Women in my position have two choices: to risk being true to herself, or risk being shunned and ostracized. A very sad commentary...

Welcome back to the board! LOL

[Maureen]

2. What had I heard about Mormon beliefs about the nature of God?

I had heard that Mormons are polytheist–that they believe that God was once a man, and that Mormon men are trying to become gods. Also, that God has a physical body, and lives on a planet near KOBOL...

prisonchaplain - I am also suspecting a subconscious affinity for Battlestar Galactica. Mormonism and BG have quite a bit in common considering Glen A. Larson (BG creator) is Mormon, so the similarities between Kobol (BG) and Kolob (Mormonism) are not an accident.

M.

[Outshined]

Fortunately I'm in a ward where the women actually think and don't buy into conspiracy theories; no drug use that I'm aware of.

[Maureen]

Fortunately I'm in a ward where the women actually think and don't buy into conspiracy theories; no drug use that I'm aware of.

I doubt they would advertize it, especially if they were - it is kinda personal.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

prisonchaplain - I am also suspecting a subconscious affinity for Battlestar Galactica. Mormonism and BG have quite a bit in common considering Glen A. Larson (BG creator) is Mormon, so the similarities between Kobol (BG) and Kolob (Mormonism) are not an accident. M.

How interesting. I seem to remember viewing one or two of the episodes, but never really had time to become a fan of the show. Then, about a month ago, I rented the remake of the pilot. And, yes, there were some subtle underpinnnings there. It's not unusual though. I was told as a teenager that Star Wars has many Buddhist themes running through it.

[Outshined]

<div class='quotemain'>

Fortunately I'm in a ward where the women actually think and don't buy into conspiracy theories; no drug use that I'm aware of.

I doubt they would advertize it, especially if they were - it is kinda personal.

M.

I don't know; it seems to be a common topic in Ari's ward. Or that could just be gossip...

[prisonchaplain]

Yes, that's true. Mormon women cannot become gods...we become goddesses!

BUT, weren't you suppose to wait for the resurrection?

The Mormon women on Prozac issue is legitimate, unfortunately. When I inquired about this from a sister in our women's auxilliary, she said that nearly all of the women [in the women's organization in that ward] are on Prozac. Something is definitely not "well in Zion".

I've said this elsewhere. Those churches who have allowed religiosity to pervade their culture will experience heavy depression in those who are the most devoted to the facade. Jesus said we are to mourn with them that mourn. We are to treasure and care for the weaker ones. We are to rejoice with them that rejoice. We are to bear one another's burdens. We are to pray for the sick. Too often, instead we demand that all believers be ever happy. We have the truth, we have the gospel, we will live forever with God, we must always be 'fat, dumb and happy.'

The solution? As they say behind the wall (in jail/prison), Let's keep it real!. Another slogan I heard from a group called Christians in Recovery (most are former addicts) is: NO PERFECT CHRISTIANS ALLOWED!

REALITY -- THE ANTIDRUG!

Women in my position have two choices: to risk being true to herself, or risk being shunned and ostracized. A very sad commentary...

Perhaps more smiley icons and shorter quotes would help? Just a thought.

[Aristotle]

BUT, weren't you suppose to wait for the resurrection?

Hence, "become" goddesses. ;-) (note smiley face)

I've said this elsewhere. Those churches who have allowed religiosity to pervade their culture will experience heavy depression in those who are the most devoted to the facade. Jesus said we are to mourn with them that mourn. We are to treasure and care for the weaker ones. We are to rejoice with them that rejoice. We are to bear one another's burdens. We are to pray for the sick. Too often, instead we demand that all believers be ever happy. We have the truth, we have the gospel, we will live forever with God, we must always be 'fat, dumb and happy.'

Yes, we are taught as Christians to bear one another's burdens, not medicate them. ;-) (note another smiley face)

The solution? As they say behind the wall (in jail/prison), Let's keep it real!. Another slogan I heard from a group called Christians in Recovery (most are former addicts) is: NO PERFECT CHRISTIANS ALLOWED!

REALITY -- THE ANTIDRUG!

So true! Perfectionism and striving to attain perfection are two different things. Perfection is impossible to achieve in our earthly existence. (note no smiley face, but exclamation point)

Perhaps more smiley icons and shorter quotes would help? Just a thought.

A short quote: "Jesus wept."

[Sugarbay]

Every forum topic just seems to be an excuse to snipe at one another. Jesus wept. I am sure he does.

[Aristotle]

Every forum topic just seems to be an excuse to snipe at one another. Jesus wept. I am sure he does.

For the record, prisonchaplain, I wasn't taking a snipe at you. :-)

- Mrs. A

[IMHO]

Every forum topic just seems to be an excuse to snipe at one another.

I agree, Sugarbay. This is getting ridiculous. Quit pinching each other, and trying to get the upper hand. "If you can't say anything nice...." just keep your mouth shut!

[Sugarbay]

Sorry I pinched you in chat last night, IMHO! LOL!

B)

[IMHO]

LOL, Sugar...you know I'm gonna beat you at Raquetball!

[prisonchaplain]

Every forum topic just seems to be an excuse to snipe at one another. Jesus wept. I am sure he does.

In this particular case, Mrs. A. is misunderstood. I had recommended that she use shorter quotes, and she offered the rather humorous reply of the shortest verse in the Bible. Harmless, and somewhat amusing fun--no sniping--not today.

[BenRaines]

Great short quote PC. Lets all take a break and take the beam out of our own eyes and not worry about the mote in our brothers or sisters.

Another way of saying it would be to all take a quick time out. Dust the chips off our own shoulders and lets get on with life. :)