Isaiah 43:10: says something that goes against the Mormon belief.

[plunk121]

Isaiah 43:10:_"Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after."

Also these___

Isaiah 44:6:_"I am the first and I am the last apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 46:9:_"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me."

Isaiah 43:10:_"Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 45:21-22:_"...there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other."

Now what do those mean? Mormons believe they can become gods right? These verses from the Bible say that won't happen though.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Brantley

[FunkyTown]

Are you asking because you want to know or because you think you do know and want to argue?

I suspect the answer is either the second, or that you're like so many others who come on with something trite that they think is controversial, post it, then disappear and never come back.

[plunk121]

Are you asking because you want to know or because you think you do know and want to argue?

I suspect the answer is either the second, or that you're like so many others who come on with something trite that they think is controversial, post it, then disappear and never come back.

I just want to know what Mormons think those mean. I honestly would like to hear so I can know and understand the Mormon belief. I promise you I am not here to argue. I'm just coming here as a Christian wanting to talk. To talk.....

Why would God say the things He said? God has never lied and He never will.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Brantley

[FunkyTown]

I just want to know what Mormons think those mean. I honestly would like to hear so I can know and understand the Mormon belief. I promise you I am not here to argue. I'm just coming here as a Christian wanting to talk. To talk.....

Why would God say the things He said? God has never lied and He never will.

All right. I'll bite.

You're correct - God has never lied and will never lie. Everything he says is correct. Now, there could be several interpretations of this particular scripture:

1) He means that there is but one God and one God only. If you define a god as 'The most powerful being in the universe', then this would make sense as there can be only one.

2) That God is the first and eternal and that nothing will come after him because he is eternal. This allows room for others, though none before and none who will persist after him if we believe that scripture(Which I do).

However, to be able to understand this scripture and have a meaningful conversation with you, I have to ask:

What do you think of God's assertion in revelations that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End?

Based upon what your view of the Isaiah scripture you gave is, I would think this would suggest you believe that God saying this means that nothing came before Him and nothing came after Him, which would mean we're all just parts of God. Is that your assertion, or do you have some other interpretation of that scripture?

[plunk121]

All right. I'll bite.

You're correct - God has never lied and will never lie. Everything he says is correct. Now, there could be several interpretations of this particular scripture:

1) He means that there is but one God and one God only. If you define a god as 'The most powerful being in the universe', then this would make sense as there can be only one.

2) That God is the first and eternal and that nothing will come after him because he is eternal. This allows room for others, though none before and none who will persist after him if we believe that scripture(Which I do).

However, to be able to understand this scripture and have a meaningful conversation with you, I have to ask:

What do you think of God's assertion in revelations that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End?

Based upon what your view of the Isaiah scripture you gave is, I would think this would suggest you believe that God saying this means that nothing came before Him and nothing came after Him, which would mean we're all just parts of God. Is that your assertion, or do you have some other interpretation of that scripture?

Isaiah 43:10:_"Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

That means that no Mormon will ever be a god. That verse only means one thing. It can ONLY mean one thing.

When God said that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, that means the He is the only one. He is our only god and will be the only god.

How is there room for others though? Not once did the verses I mentioned say there would be. In no way did they.

[FunkyTown]

When God said that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, that means the He is the only one. He is our only god and will be the only god.

Perfect! Please justify this:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

I'm reading this scripture and I don't see the word 'God' in there. I do see how you can get that He is the only one. If he's the only one, does that mean you don't exist, or does it mean something else? Please justify your answer scripturally and not with guesswork.

[plunk121]

Perfect! Please justify this:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

I'm reading this scripture and I don't see the word 'God' in there. I do see how you can get that He is the only one. If he's the only one, does that mean you don't exist, or does it mean something else? Please justify your answer scripturally and not with guesswork.

God said that He is the FIRST and the LAST. He is only saying that he is the first and the last god. The WORD god doesn't need to be used because we know He is God.

You didn't answer my question. Please answer it. What does this mean?

Isaiah 43:10:_"Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Mormons believe that God was not the first god, but He said that before Him no god was formed. What does that mean?

[FunkyTown]

God said that He is the FIRST and the LAST. He is only saying that he is the first and the last God. The WORD god doesn't need to be used because we know he is God.

You didn't answer my question. Please answer it. What does this mean?

Isaiah 43:10:_"Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Mormons believe that God was not the first god, but He said that before Him no god was formed.

And that is true. And you still haven't justified it scripturally, what you're saying. You're adding on to Revelation instead of taking it at its face value. I would like to warn you of Revelation 22:18:

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Please, instead of just guesswork, please explain Revelation and how it says God is the Alpha and the Omega. You are correct that it doesn't say God. It's saying he's the first and the last. No word 'God' in there. Please explain scripturally how we know he's referring merely to him being the first, last and only God. If you add the word 'God' to his words, you are guilty of what Revelation warns specifically of.

[plunk121]

You are correct that it doesn't say God. It's saying he's the first and the last. No word 'God' in there. Please explain scripturally how we know he's referring merely to him being the first, last and only God. If you add the word 'God' to his words, you are guilty of what Revelation warns specifically of.

The word god is used here.

God said that he was the first GOD formed and he will be the last GOD formed.

Isaiah 43:10:_"Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

You still haven't mentioned a word about that.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Brantley

[FunkyTown]

The word god is used here. God said that he was the first GOD formed and he will be the last GOD formed.

Isaiah 43:10:_"Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

You still haven't mentioned a word about that.

That's because, in order to understand that, you have to understand the context and we have to have an understanding of what being the first and the last means. You're clearly here picking scriptural railsplits and trying to fight.

If you cannot answer my question, will you admit to not understanding the bible?

[plunk121]

If you cannot answer my question, will you admit to not understanding the bible?

What's your question again? Please ask it again.

[plunk121]

Do you have yahoo messenger? If you'd like to talk about this, it will be a lot easier to chat on that.

[FunkyTown]

Do you have yahoo messenger? If you'd like to talk about this, it will be a lot easier to chat on that.

Unfortunately, no.

But I do have Revelation 22 here:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

My question, since Revelation specifically says not to add anything unto it, is the following:

What does this scripture mean, since the word God is not in it? If he is the first and last and that means there are none in between, would you suggest this scripture means you don't exist? If not, what does it mean?

[plunk121]

What does this scripture mean, since the word God is not in it? If he is the first and last and that means there are none in between, would you suggest this scripture means you don't exist? If not, what does it mean?

He doesn't use the word god, but He is saying that He is the first and the last god. He has said that before. Just because the word isn't used doesn't mean he isn't referring to that. He's already said that.........

Please answer this. Please..........What do you think it means?

[FunkyTown]

He doesn't use the word god, but He is saying that He is the first and the last god. He has said that before. Just because the word isn't used doesn't mean he isn't referring to that. He's already said that.........

Please answer this. Please..........What do you think it means?

What do I think it means? I think he's the first and the last period. For instance: If what he's saying is merely that he's the first and last God, it would mean someone could argue there were blades of grass or stars or bits of Twinkies around before him. I think it is a dangerous game you're playing, putting the word 'God' in there as it both violates Revelation's law not to add or subtract anything from it and makes it so that there could have been something before God.

I would suggest you ask your pastor if he thinks your interpretation is correct and if there is a chance something was around prior to God.

[plunk121]

I'm done with this. I'm not going to read your reply so there's no point in replying.

YOU'RE GOING TO HELL IF YOU DIE A MORMON.

You are NOT Christian if you're Mormon.

I'm sorry to say, but you are a MORON for believing Joseph Smith.

Only 3,000 or so errors in the original book!........

[FunkyTown]

I'm done with this. I'm not going to read your reply so there's no point in replying.

YOU'RE GOING TO HELL IF YOU DIE A MORMON.

You are NOT Christian if you're Mormon.

I'm sorry to say, but you are a MORON for believing Joseph Smith.

Only 3,000 or so errors in the original book!........

Hahah. And it only took 2 pages to get what you really wanted to say out. You didn't want to argue at all.

Anti-Mormons exposed by Funkytown: 3.

I may just keep a running total in my signature once I hit 5.

[MarginOfError]

From Isaiah 43:

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

So would it be possible to clarify who is talking here? Is it God? Is it the Lord? Is it the savior? Are they all one and the same? Wouldn't you have to accept the existence of the Trinity in order for one God to fulfill all those roles (perhaps you should open a discussion with Snow if you want to discuss the validity of the Trinity)?

When you read a little more than the hand picked phrases you present, the matter becomes much less clear than you make it. In fact, when you take the Bible as a whole, your claims make a pretty gross over simplification of the issue.

Consider, for example, the use of the plural in the very first verse of Genesis (using the Hebrew text). So if the first verse in Genesis implies multiple gods, what happened to all the others by the time we get to Isaiah 43? Are we talking about Gods, or are we talking about gods?

[FunkyTown]

You're a little late to the ball, Moe. When I pointed out that his reading of what he was talked about applied to nearly the exact same wording in Revelation would indicate his understanding of God was fundamentally flawed, he said if I died a Mormon I would go to Hell and he wasn't going to come around any more.

I've learned to start with basics with people I suspect of being Anti-Mormon. If they disagree with everything you're saying, then you need to paint them in to a corner where they're either wrong or they're wrong.

From Isaiah 43:

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

So would it be possible to clarify who is talking here? Is it God? Is it the Lord? Is it the savior? Are they all one and the same? Wouldn't you have to accept the existence of the Trinity in order for one God to fulfill all those roles (perhaps you should open a discussion with Snow if you want to discuss the validity of the Trinity)?

When you read a little more than the hand picked phrases you present, the matter becomes much less clear than you make it. In fact, when you take the Bible as a whole, your claims make a pretty gross over simplification of the issue.

Consider, for example, the use of the plural in the very first verse of Genesis (using the Hebrew text). So if the first verse in Genesis implies multiple gods, what happened to all the others by the time we get to Isaiah 43? Are we talking about Gods, or are we talking about gods?

[Hemidakota]

Isaiah 43:10:_"Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after."

Also these:

Isaiah 44:6:_"I am the first and I am the last apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 46:9:_"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me."

Isaiah 43:10:_"Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 45:21-22:_"...there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other."

Now what do those mean? Mormons believe they can become gods right? These verses from the Bible say that won't happen though.

Brantley, have you consider to ask GOD whether you are right in your thinking?

Taking one scripture verse and creating a viewpoint is a poor hopeless attempt. At least look at the set of scriptures from a few verses before and a few after. Then, be Isaiah, place yourself in his environment, culture setting, to what audience was Isaiah speaking too? Last, be familiar with this man texture style of writing in order to comprehend what is being said. Isaiah for most people is the most complex set of scripture next to Paul letters.

Let backup a couple of verses here first. The people mentioned in verse 8, the blind and deaf, are similar to those described in Isaiah 42:18-23 JST who ignore the prophet's message. These people are blind and deaf because they have not acknowledged God's workings on earth or listened to the Spirit declare his truths. In the time of restoration, however, their eyes and ears will be opened, and they will understand the Lord's role upon this earth. After they hear the witnesses and see the divine reality, they will all come to know the true Lord of this earth (v. 11; see Isa. 45:23).

Next, in verse 9, the Lord summons the nations to bring forth witnesses of his divine plan, if they can. However, they are not able to testify about the former (including premortal) things the Lord has done. So, the Lord turns to Israel and calls his chosen people as witnesses; that God has fulfilled his gracious plan for the world is manifest best in the records of the house of Israel. They alone testify that the Lord has provided salvation and resurrection for the world and eternal life for those who desire to receive it. Israel is not only God's special witness, but also his servant to the world, and her inspired records are to go to all people. No other nation can give a similar witness of its gods.

Israel's message to the world is highlighted in verses 11-13. Here the pronoun I appears twelve times to emphasize that Jehovah alone is the savior of this earth. Verse 11 is the triumphal climax to this declaration, for three important names of God are found therein. The verse begins with "I, I am," a phrase that calls to mind the title, "I AM," the name by which God identified himself to Moses on Mount Sinai. The divine speaker of the verse then declares that he is "the Lord" (Jehovah from the Hebrew Yahweh). He reveals his role as redeemer by identifying himself as the only "savior" of this world. The word savior is the common Old Testament term used to describe the God of Israel. He is to be Israel's ultimate redeemer because he is also the "anointed one," or the Messiah. (Translated into Greek, the Aramaic word Messiah becomes Christ.) Therefore, the terms Savior, Messiah, and Christ all emphasize the importance of Jehovah's role in God's plan. The German scholar F. Delitzsch provides a helpful insight into the relationship between two of these terms:

[savior] and Jehovah are kindred epithets here; just as in the New Testament the name Jehovah sets, as it were, but only to rise again in the name Jesus, in which it is historically fulfilled. Jehovah's precious self-manifestation in history [as in Isa. 43:11] furnished a pledge of the coming redemption. (Keil-Delitzsch, Commentary on the Old Testament 2:194.)

Thus, Jehovah promises Israel that he will eventually come as the Savior of this earth.

Centuries after Isaiah composed chapter 43, Joseph Smith borrowed some of Isaiah's terminology in his praise of the Lord in the preface to the marvelous revelation on the three degrees of glory: "Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior." (D&C 76:1; see Isa. 1:2; 43:11.) This verse does not say that no other Gods exist, but rather that only Jehovah (Jesus Christ) is the Savior and through him alone is salvation. (See Hel. 5:9; 2 Ne. 25:20.) The first chapter of Genesis indicates that other Gods have been involved with this earth, but the Lord, in speaking to ancient Israel, wants it clearly understood that he is to be their sole savior. (See Gen. 1:26.)

Continuing in verse 12, the Lord charges Israel to accept her role as a special witness of him. In addition to foretelling his triumph, Israel is to serve as a second witness and to announce his role as the Savior to the earth. Members of covenant Israel are now fulfilling this charge as they send missionaries into the world to testify of Jesus Christ. (Bruce R. McConkie, CR, Apr. 1977, p. 135.) (Credit: Isaiah: Prophet, Seer, and Poet by Victor L. Ludlow)

Again, one more time with a different twist in highlighting a few words here:

43:10 Ye are my witnesses. This phrase is repeated in 43:12. The children of Israel were chosen to be witnesses of Jehovah and bear testimony of him to the world. Sometimes Israel has failed to do so, because her people were spiritually blind. In our own day we, the house of Israel (especially Ephraim and Manasseh), are instructed to bear witness of our God, as modern-day prophets have explained.

know and believe me/understand. We are told to seek knowledge of the Lord's nature and character so we are able to understand who he is and can bear a stronger witness of him (see D&C 19:23).

I am he. This clear statement answers the question asked in 43:9: "Who among them can declare this?" The expression also recalls Jehovah's title—I Am (Ex. 3:14).

before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. In Isaiah's great discussion of false gods and idols (chapters 40-46), he assures both ancient and modern Israel that Jehovah is God.

43:11 beside me there is no savior. Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ, is the Savior of the world. There is no other Savior.

Hopefully this helps in giving a greater clarity on what is Isaiah is stating...

[funkenheimer]

Well done Funkytown. Well done.

[Hemidakota]

Now, was that Christ like behavior? Something we need to stop and think about...

[FunkyTown]

Now, was that Christ like behavior? Something we need to stop and think about...

On his part or mine? If you're asking, 'Would Christ have asked questions specifically designed to trip up the Pharisees', then the answer is 'Yes'. If he would have highfived the person next to him afterwards, the answer is probably 'No'.

[Hemidakota]

Any of us...this includes me.

I have debated this offline between Gwen and Maya over specific issues that is seen on this board. It has made me realize, what is our end goal for the Savior? It is to help, aid, support, and to build the kingdom for Him and not for us. This means, both members and non-members. we should be walking in His shoes versus our own.

[MarginOfError]

Anti-Mormons exposed by Funkytown: 3.

I may just keep a running total in my signature once I hit 5.

I think you should keep a count going anyway, just because it amuses me.

I wonder if I should tally my conquests, too. We could have a little competition.