does God punish you for doing bad things

[crazypotato]

Regarding Snow and anyone else here, it takes a long time to get to know people's personalities online and maybe we really never do.

Maybe a lot of us don't want others to get to know us. I don't know. I hope the original OP and people coming here for help and advice are still feeling welcome and cared about, because I really think that if people didn't care at all they wouldn't bother posting advice.

[bcguy]

To look at pics, to have sex or to want it would the world population be alot smaller?

[Snow]

You have your beliefs, we have ours. Why are you here? To discuss? To put down our beliefs? To mock?

Well - if you believe that God wants or wanted us to brutally and violently murder people who do yard work on the Sabbath (per the instructions in Numbers 15:32-36), then I am mocking you.

Let's take an analogous example. Say there is this guy who lives down the street, Robert, but his friends call him Bobert the Barberino... and Bobert belongs to the same lawn bowling club that you do. At your weekly lawn bowling matches, Boberts says that he thinks that people that grow pink roses ought to be held down and beaten to a bloody pulp with a Sand Wedge.... and to keep the example analogous, let's say that he got the idea from a really old book. OH! - and he was serious.

Would you respect Bobert?

[Justice]

Here is President Faust speaking of the Book of Mormon:

What It Is and Is Not

...The Book of Mormon establishes the truthfulness of the Bible. It is evidence “to the world that the holy scriptures are true.” It foretells the establishment of the fulness of the gospel of peace and salvation. It was written to give us principles and guidelines for our eternal journey.

One of the ultimate messages of the Book of Mormon, and indeed of the Old Testament and all human history, is that mankind cannot reach perfection on our own. There is another message that comes through loud and clear from its pages. It is the often unpopular and seemingly harsh injunction “Repent or perish.” When the Book of Mormon people listened to this prophetic message, they flourished. When they forgot the message, they perished.

In Galatians Paul said, “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.” The records maintained by the Book of Mormon prophets—and portions of what is now the Bible brought from the eastern continent—served, according to Abinadi, “to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.” So the Book of Mormon is a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.

Scriptural and Personal Testimonies

The test for understanding this sacred book is preeminently spiritual. An obsession with secular knowledge rather than spiritual understanding will make its pages difficult to unlock.

Article: LDS.org - Liahona Article - The Keystone of Our Religion

I was hoping you would comment on this. If you choose not to, that's OK, but I'll repost it in case you missed it.

These words remind me of something said by a GA one time, although I can't remember who or where. He said something to the effect of: Gospel mean good news, and along with the good news there is bad news... we can fail.

Repent or perish is a common theme throught scriptures. Alma said that men must be redeemed from the spiritual fall before they are redeemed from the physical fall. If a man is never reedemed spiritually it makes no difference when he dies physically. In fact, seeing from the other side of the veil, the person who is killed for disobedience may have a better chance because of death. I believe some people will accept Christ after they died. If their death can serve as an example to those left behind and help them to accept Christ, then their death is a great showing of mercy.

It is for one who lives in eternity and sees all things to decide; it's not mine to judge when my vision is so limited.

[Cassiopeia]

Well - if you believe that God wants or wanted us to brutally and violently murder people who do yard work on the Sabbath (per the instructions in Numbers 15:32-36), then I am mocking you.

Let's take an analogous example. Say there is this guy who lives down the street, Robert, but his friends call him Bobert the Barberino... and Bobert belongs to the same lawn bowling club that you do. At your weekly lawn bowling matches, Boberts says that he thinks that people that grow pink roses ought to be held down and beaten to a bloody pulp with a Sand Wedge.... and to keep the example analogous, let's say that he got the idea from a really old book. OH! - and he was serious.

Would you respect Bobert?

I may not always like your approach, I tend to cut to the heart of a matter without the use of analogy but, I agree, that the God we should know and worship is not the God represented in the OT. He is a loving and kind God.

[Moksha]

Let's take an analogous example. Say there is this guy who lives down the street, Robert, but his friends call him Bobert the Barberino... and Bobert belongs to the same lawn bowling club that you do. At your weekly lawn bowling matches, Boberts says that he thinks that people that grow pink roses ought to be held down and beaten to a bloody pulp with a Sand Wedge.... and to keep the example analogous, let's say that he got the idea from a really old book. OH! - and he was serious.

Would you respect Bobert?

I would remind Brother Bobert of the saying in that old book, "Wield not the sandwedge, lest ye be charged with extra greens fees at the Clubhouse ...".

[Snow]

I would remind Brother Bobert of the saying in that old book, "Wield not the sandwedge, lest ye be charged with extra greens fees at the Clubhouse ...".

:)

I was in Estes Park Colorado all week - at the gateway of Rocky Mtn National Park.

I had to take a penalty stroke for beaning the elk.

http://wyattcabinetry.com/images/Colorado%202009%20054.jpg

[Matthew0059]

Can we close this, or get back to the original topic? I think Soldier's not coming back, and the current discussion is leading nowhere except to faith-destroying territory.

Please, for the sake of the tender souls who might read this thread, finish this contentious argument.

[Snow]

Can we close this, or get back to the original topic? I think Soldier's not coming back, and the current discussion is leading nowhere except to faith-destroying territory.

Please, for the sake of the tender souls who might read this thread, finish this contentious argument.

Ah, I see that you are a proponent of the theory that critical thought and frank dialogue destroy faith.

Perhaps there is a difference between you and me but my faith is not based on avoidance of moral implications of scripture and other people's discussing their opinions.

[Matthew0059]

Ah, I see that you are a proponent of the theory that critical thought and frank dialogue destroy faith.

Perhaps there is a difference between you and me but my faith is not based on avoidance of moral implications of scripture and other people's discussing their opinions.

Snow, your constant rudeness and belittling lack the very essence of critical thought and frank dialogue. You insult everyone who believes differently than you on certain subjects. You do this more and more openly and proudly over time. I for am shocked that you admit that you mock everyone who believes that GOD once commanded Israel to stone those who broke the sacred law of Sabbath-day observance. You openly mock the sacred LDS values of continuing revelation and the veracity of scripture.

Will you put aside your cynicism and join me in a discussion of the goodness of GOD, and the veracity of Joseph Smith as a prophet of GOD? I am not trying to draw you into any kind of trap, but only wondering. You and I have had our problems in the past (in case you missed it, I am Maxel), but I truly desire to see you wholly believe the Book of Mormon's and Old Testament's truthfulness and accuracy.

If you ever wish to have such a discussion, I will welcome it with an open heart and mind. However, I'd prefer not to get into on this thread, as it has gone off-topic enough.

Again, I ask: will this thread be closed (unless there's reason to suppose that the OP will return)?

[Suzie]

Maybe a new thread should be started of why the God of the Old Testament appears to be so brutal in some instances. It's not like anyone did not notice.

Also, I think we need to understand that each one of us have different personalities and quite a few posters are very sensitive (IMO). It's a little hard to exchange ideas sometimes with those that disagree because they are offended easily. So instead of the discussion turning intelligent, it becomes emotional.

[Snow]

Snow, your constant rudeness and belittling lack the very essence of critical thought and frank dialogue. You insult everyone who believes differently than you on certain subjects. You do this more and more openly and proudly over time. I for am shocked that you admit that you mock everyone who believes that GOD once commanded Israel to stone those who broke the sacred law of Sabbath-day observance. You openly mock the sacred LDS values of continuing revelation and the veracity of scripture.

Will you put aside your cynicism and join me in a discussion of the goodness of GOD, and the veracity of Joseph Smith as a prophet of GOD? I am not trying to draw you into any kind of trap, but only wondering. You and I have had our problems in the past (in case you missed it, I am Maxel), but I truly desire to see you wholly believe the Book of Mormon's and Old Testament's truthfulness and accuracy.

If you ever wish to have such a discussion, I will welcome it with an open heart and mind. However, I'd prefer not to get into on this thread, as it has gone off-topic enough.

Again, I ask: will this thread be closed (unless there's reason to suppose that the OP will return)?

Don't be hate'm on me Matthew

Try and and focus on the topic instead of obsessing about me, k?

[Matthew0059]

Don't be hate'm on me Matthew

Try and and focus on the topic instead of obsessing about me, k?

I don't "hate'm" on you, Snow. I am tired of your rudeness and belittling attitude, but I don't get worked up at all about you anymore. I grew up in this regard sometime last year. My feelings towards you now are anxiousness and worry.

The current topic is so far off-topic and unhelpful, and has created so much contention, that I think this thread needs to be closed. That was the point of my past few postings.

My offer was serious. I plead with you, brother, not to throw away your good gifts.

God bless.

[Snow]

I don't "hate'm" on you, Snow. I am tired of your rudeness and belittling attitude...

Seriously,

Stick to the topic and stop obsessing about me. It can't be healthy.

[crazypotato]

I have often wondered why the God of the Old Testament was so harsh that he flooded the entire world, for example, and destroyed entire cities.

But now those scriptures don't bug me anymore because I know that whether there is a fire or earthquake, the potatoes will survive, buried safe under the earth. Maybe they would rot in a flood, though. Or wait, would we sprout? Hmm. . .

Seriously, if it was better for King Laban to be killed so that Nephi could get the brass plates, maybe God had to destroy entire civilizations because large portions of evil people were raising their children and their children to be evil, and no one would listen to the prophets. Maybe it was the only chance for the next generations to come from parents that were reasonably decent. From my understanding of God, when he appears "mean" and cruel, it is often because I think people lack an understanding of his motives. I don't think God enjoys chastising his children, but has to from time to time, in order to save them. Go read the parable of the olive trees in the Book of Mormon.

[Snow]

I have often wondered why the God of the Old Testament was so harsh that he flooded the entire world, for example, and destroyed entire cities.

But now those scriptures don't bug me anymore because I know that whether there is a fire or earthquake, the potatoes will survive, buried safe under the earth. Maybe they would rot in a flood, though. Or wait, would we sprout? Hmm. . .

Seriously, if it was better for King Laban to be killed so that Nephi could get the brass plates, maybe God had to destroy entire civilizations because large portions of evil people were raising their children and their children to be evil, and no one would listen to the prophets. Maybe it was the only chance for the next generations to come from parents that were reasonably decent. From my understanding of God, when he appears "mean" and cruel, it is often because I think people lack an understanding of his motives. I don't think God enjoys chastising his children, but has to from time to time, in order to save them. Go read the parable of the olive trees in the Book of Mormon.

1. Why didn't God give Laban a stroke so Nephi wouldn't have to murder him?

2. Perhaps I, as you say, lack the proper understanding - why did God order his followers to steal, and to kidnap, enslave, rape and murder innocent people?

[crazypotato]

1. Why didn't God give Laban a stroke so Nephi wouldn't have to murder him?

2. Perhaps I, as you say, lack the proper understanding - why did God order his followers to steal, and to kidnap, enslave, rape and murder innocent people?

I don't know. How would I know what God was thinking? As far as Laban, your reasoning is not working for me.

1. Why didn't God give Hitler a stroke? Why did he allow the world to go into a World War? Maybe we all needed to suffer through the brutality of war to gain knowledge and experience that couldn't occur if Hitler or Laban just keeled over from a stroke.

2. You got me. Don't know why God would do that. Why did God allow the gentiles to brutally murder the Native Americans and buy the African Americans. Maybe not an equal comparison, but he did tell the Lamanites that he would allow them to be destroyed, then brought over the Gentiles to do it? Maybe the Gentiles, as did those OT people, had misinterpreted what God wanted them to do to other people that they rationalized were less than them?

[Justice]

Why didn't God just hand Joseph Smith a completed Book of Mormon? Why didn't He strike down everyone that tried to kill him or any of the saints?

Why doesn't God just come down and prove to everyone He's real?

You can ask these questions all day long...

I'd like to hear your answer, to these questions and your own.

[Snow]

I don't know. How would I know what God was thinking? As far as Laban, your reasoning is not working for me.

1. Why didn't God give Hitler a stroke? Why did he allow the world to go into a World War? Maybe we all needed to suffer through the brutality of war to gain knowledge and experience that couldn't occur if Hitler or Laban just keeled over from a stroke.

2. You got me. Don't know why God would do that. Why did God allow the gentiles to brutally murder the Native Americans and buy the African Americans. Maybe not an equal comparison, but he did tell the Lamanites that he would allow them to be destroyed, then brought over the Gentiles to do it? Maybe the Gentiles, as did those OT people, had misinterpreted what God wanted them to do to other people that they rationalized were less than them?

Your post implied that there was an answer - that people who thought God (of the OT) mean or evil were simply suffering from a misunderstanding of His motives - but now I see that you don't understand either. I thought you were going to shed some light on the matter rather than say it's all a mystery.

[Snow]

Why didn't God just hand Joseph Smith a completed Book of Mormon? Why didn't He strike down everyone that tried to kill him or any of the saints?

Why doesn't God just come down and prove to everyone He's real?

You can ask these questions all day long...

I'd like to hear your answer, to these questions and your own.

Whoops - you've missed the point. In the case at hand, God, who is supposed to be good and desires his followers to be good, commands his follower to commit evil. That's a contradiction, a contradiction that could have been avoided, in the story.

[Suzie]

I have asked this question many times online and besides the "it's not important for our salvation" type of answer or "we will know in the next life", nobody seems to be able to explain why God would command the murder of not only men and women but also infant and nursing children.

In 1 Samuel 15:3-4 God commands Saul through the prophet Samuel to do the following:

15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

This kind of question cannot be compared of "Why doesn't God prevent killing of innocent people" or "Why doesn't God just come down and prove to everyone he's real". This is a question about Him COMMANDING the murder of INNOCENT BABIES.

I believe whoever has a heart, would find those issues of the OT disturbing to say the least.

[crazypotato]

Your post implied that there was an answer - that people who thought God (of the OT) mean or evil were simply suffering from a misunderstanding of His motives - but now I see that you don't understand either. I thought you were going to shed some light on the matter rather than say it's all a mystery.

Ah, I thought I did shed light on it. Our church believes that God is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow. So then if we are believing the OT, then that is our God, too.

I still say the parable of the olive branches answers a lot of those questions, found in the Book of Mormon in Jacob.

[crazypotato]

I have asked this question many times online and besides the "it's not important for our salvation" type of answer or "we will know in the next life", nobody seems to be able to explain why God would command the murder of not only men and women but also infant and nursing children.

In 1 Samuel 15:3-4 God commands Saul through the prophet Samuel to do the following:

This kind of question cannot be compared of "Why doesn't God prevent killing of innocent people" or "Why doesn't God just come down and prove to everyone he's real". This is a question about Him COMMANDING the murder of INNOCENT BABIES.

I believe whoever has a heart, would find those issues of the OT disturbing to say the least.

Sure. It's a pretty freaky story. Here's another idea. Sometimes what is written to us doesn't make sense because we are coming from such a different world. Maybe the language that the Bible was written in was more symbolic, and maybe if we asked a Jewish scholar, they would tell us that it didn't happen the way we interpret it to be written.

[crazypotato]

I have asked this question many times online and besides the "it's not important for our salvation" type of answer or "we will know in the next life", nobody seems to be able to explain why God would command the murder of not only men and women but also infant and nursing children.

In 1 Samuel 15:3-4 God commands Saul through the prophet Samuel to do the following:

This kind of question cannot be compared of "Why doesn't God prevent killing of innocent people" or "Why doesn't God just come down and prove to everyone he's real". This is a question about Him COMMANDING the murder of INNOCENT BABIES.

I believe whoever has a heart, would find those issues of the OT disturbing to say the least.

There are many instances where God allows innocent babies and children to be tortured or murdered by sickos and that makes people think God is cruel, too. But what about where he commands people to do things, like walk across the plains to Utah, where their innocent babies and children die from hunger or the elements? Surely God knew that they would die before he asked them to cross the plains, and he did not prevent their deaths, but others were healed by priesthood blessings. They died because their parents were following a commandment. Or what about when God has destroyed civilizations because they were wicked. The babies and little kids who lived there were not wicked, and it doesn't sound like God removed all the babies and kids before the cities were destroyed.

I just think you need to sometimes either have Faith that God loves us but chastises for the good of the world, or really get some good books on the Old Testament that go into all the details, and see what other people have to say about it.

Those stories don't bother me anymore because I do believe that God knows what he is doing and that some things defy our logic but not his perfect knowledge.

[Cassiopeia]

I have a different take on this. I don't think we can take as literal all the things in the bible. We have to remember it is written by man, translated by man and interpreted by man.

I don't believe that God caused those things to happen. I think the writer of those passages was trying to write an analogy and was given sway to hyperbole.

Keep in mind, this is not church doctrine. This is something I've come to conclude through my studies in religion at the University of Cape Town, South Africa.