does God punish you for doing bad things

[Snow]

I have a different take on this. I don't think we can take as literal all the things in the bible. We have to remember it is written by man, translated by man and interpreted by man.

I don't believe that God caused those things to happen. I think the writer of those passages was trying to write an analogy and was given sway to hyperbole.

Keep in mind, this is not church doctrine. This is something I've come to conclude through my studies in religion at the University of Cape Town, South Africa.

A very reasonable conclusion...

Although, the original authors may have actually believed the stories were historically true - not necessarily analogies. They were generally written down long after the actual events with the story passed along orally for hundreds of years. Other stories, for example Job or Jonah are obviously not written as literal history.

[Cassiopeia]

A very reasonable conclusion...

Although, the original authors may have actually believed the stories were historically true - not necessarily analogies. They were generally written down long after the actual events with the story passed along orally for hundreds of years. Other stories, for example Job or Jonah are obviously not written as literal history.

Actually, I think you might just be right about that. I think it's safe to say that stories passed from generation to generation are altered even unwittingly.

[Moksha]

Why did God order his followers to steal, and to kidnap, enslave, rape and murder innocent people?

I think it was just written that way to justify some tribal barbarity. Best to envision a God of total goodness. That mystery stuff to rationalize horrendous actions that are forbidden in both the commandments and the US Code Annotated seems odd for people who usually claim to know things with absolute certainty.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Moksha

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have asked this question many times online and besides the "it's not important for our salvation" type of answer or "we will know in the next life", nobody seems to be able to explain why God would command the murder of not only men and women but also infant and nursing children.

In 1 Samuel 15:3-4 God commands Saul through the prophet Samuel to do the following:

This kind of question cannot be compared of "Why doesn't God prevent killing of innocent people" or "Why doesn't God just come down and prove to everyone he's real". This is a question about Him COMMANDING the murder of INNOCENT BABIES.

I believe whoever has a heart, would find those issues of the OT disturbing to say the least.

Why is it disturbing that a spirit return to the presence of our Heavenly Father without needing to be tested in this life? Maybe that spirit only needs a body and does not need the test, there are many examples of that in our world today. I have had a stillbirth that I believe falls into that category. What a wonderful thing that that spirit is so good that they could go back directly to our Heavenly Father without having to endure the trials and tests of this life. I do not find anything disturbing about that. Or, possibly, an adult who's test is over can finish this existence without needing to make their judgment any different than what it would be if they remained alive in this existence. I think you have to keep in mind the purpose of this life. If one doesn't have a clear understanding of the purpose of this existence, yes, these stories are disturbing.

If they are truly "innocent" like you say, then why keep them here to suffer the trials of this life too? How nice of our Heavenly Father to let them finish the test early. :)

[Justice]

Death is a necessary part of life. If it were not for mortality and death salvation would be impossible.

It's consistent.

God has commanded some to kill.

God has killed some.

God does what is necessary for the salvation of His children. The reason He can command to kill and send floods and famines to kill, while commanding us not to kill, is because He knows the end from the beginning. We cannot decide, because of our limited knowledge, how mankind is better when what people die. Neither can we judge which people are better off learning the gospel as spirits.

If you look through mortal eyes at death it's very difficult to see how it can benefit any man. But, when trying to view it how God might see it, death can be a blessing, and the very cause of many to repent and accept Jesus Christ.

[riverogue]

Are you praying and read reading the scriptures often and sincerely? If so, know that you are on the right track and meet with your bishop. I would be more worried about a person who seems to do everything right but doesn't read or pray.

[Snow]

Are you praying and read reading the scriptures often and sincerely? If so, know that you are on the right track and meet with your bishop. I would be more worried about a person who seems to do everything right but doesn't read or pray.

And what is the significance of you worrying?

Is a person at risk for something bad if your worry level is high?

[Snow]

I think it was just written that way to justify some tribal barbarity. Best to envision a God of total goodness. That mystery stuff to rationalize horrendous actions that are forbidden in both the commandments and the US Code Annotated seems odd for people who usually claim to know things with absolute certainty.

Ah... the rational intelligent approach.

Have you considered saying that it's all unknowable?

[Matthew0059]

[Gives up trying to get the thread closed. For now.]

I have asked this question many times online and besides the "it's not important for our salvation" type of answer or "we will know in the next life", nobody seems to be able to explain why God would command the murder of not only men and women but also infant and nursing children.

If you approach the LORD, and try to live every day of your life with an eternal perspective, you will learn the answer. This is not the kind of an answer that you can be taught- you have to approach the FATHER in prayer, and let the atonement of CHRIST work within you and teach you.

You can read Justice's post as a starting-off point.

GOD bless.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Matthew0059

[Moksha]

Ah... the rational intelligent approach.

Have you considered saying that it's all unknowable?

God knows the Celestial mechanics of it all. Hopefully one day all our understanding will be sufficient to know these things too. In the mean time, it seems wise to not embue God with our own undesirable qualities, behaviors and deeds.

[Moksha]

Have you considered saying that it's all unknowable?

I have by the way considered saying that. What we believe about the metaphysical is all based on a leap of faith.

[Dove]

Ahh, I see Sarcastic Snow is causing contention and arguments again. Hopefully, what I have to say may close a thread that Snow has made to be another go-around of people arguing and being insulted by him.

One thing I've noticed about you Snow, is that you love to sound so intelligent (can you spell non-sequitur, Snow, huh, can ya, can ya?!), reasonable and rational, while baiting people to get into arguments with you so that you can demean and insult them.

For all your "intelligent" babble, Snow, your are nothing more than a school yard bully in grade school pushing everyone around. You obviously don't believe in the doctrines of the LDS church anymore. Why don't you go and start your own forum? You could name it "Snow's fight club under the guise of fair debate and discussion." At least then people could be forewarned as to what they were getting into in dealing with you!

Why not take your vile bitterness somewhere else, like the Jerry Springer Show, where people can truly appreciate your baiting and rudeness?

Dove

[Elgama]

1. Why didn't God give Laban a stroke so Nephi wouldn't have to murder him?

2. Perhaps I, as you say, lack the proper understanding - why did God order his followers to steal, and to kidnap, enslave, rape and murder innocent people?

because he is God and He can? Not sure whether a stroke is any better than being killed by a sword, neither is a great way to go, it did however teach Nephi. For all we know he did have a stroke and it was an act of mercy he was described as drunk

[Snow]

because he is God and He can? Not sure whether a stroke is any better than being killed by a sword, neither is a great way to go, it did however teach Nephi. For all we know he did have a stroke and it was an act of mercy he was described as drunk

The issue is not whether having your head chopped off is nicer than having a stroke. The issues is that if God wanted him dead, He could have done it himself rather than ordering his servant to commit murder.

[Cassiopeia]

Ahh, I see Sarcastic Snow is causing contention and arguments again. Hopefully, what I have to say may close a thread that Snow has made to be another go-around of people arguing and being insulted by him.

One thing I've noticed about you Snow, is that you love to sound so intelligent (can you spell non-sequitur, Snow, huh, can ya, can ya?!), reasonable and rational, while baiting people to get into arguments with you so that you can demean and insult them.

For all your "intelligent" babble, Snow, your are nothing more than a school yard bully in grade school pushing everyone around. You obviously don't believe in the doctrines of the LDS church anymore. Why don't you go and start your own forum? You could name it "Snow's fight club under the guise of fair debate and discussion." At least then people could be forewarned as to what they were getting into in dealing with you!

Why not take your vile bitterness somewhere else, like the Jerry Springer Show, where people can truly appreciate your baiting and rudeness?

Dove

Not that I'm a fan of Snow's and I can't believe I'm about to ask this, but are you saying he shouldn't be here if he's losing or lost faith? Because I can't think of a better place for someone to talk about that.

Or are you saying he should go somewhere else because of his contentious approach to discussion and debate?

[Cassiopeia]

The issue is not whether having your head chopped off is nicer than having a stroke. The issues is that if God wanted him dead, He could have done it himself rather than ordering his servant to commit murder.

But this does pose the question as to why wouldn't God use his servant to accomplish the deed?

[Snow]

But this does pose the question as to why wouldn't God use his servant to accomplish the deed?

Let me pose a question.

Suppose that President Monson had a beef with the Salt Lake mayor or attorney general or whatever. Suppose that he then chopped off the mayor's head with a machete. Let's say then that he said that God wanted him to do it.

How would you feel about that? How would the Church feel and how would society react?

[Snow]

Ahh, I see Sarcastic Snow is causing contention and arguments again. Hopefully, what I have to say may close a thread that Snow has made to be another go-around of people arguing and being insulted by him.

One thing I've noticed about you Snow, is that you love to sound so intelligent (can you spell non-sequitur, Snow, huh, can ya, can ya?!), reasonable and rational, while baiting people to get into arguments with you so that you can demean and insult them.

For all your "intelligent" babble, Snow, your are nothing more than a school yard bully in grade school pushing everyone around. You obviously don't believe in the doctrines of the LDS church anymore. Why don't you go and start your own forum? You could name it "Snow's fight club under the guise of fair debate and discussion." At least then people could be forewarned as to what they were getting into in dealing with you!

Why not take your vile bitterness somewhere else, like the Jerry Springer Show, where people can truly appreciate your baiting and rudeness?

Dove

I tried to count the personal insults in that post but ran out of fingers. Go chase some squirrels and then look up what it is called when a person does what they accuse another of doing.

[Cassiopeia]

Let me pose a question.

Suppose that President Monson had a beef with the Salt Lake mayor or attorney general or whatever. Suppose that he then chopped off the mayor's head with a machete. Let's say then that he said that God wanted him to do it.

How would you feel about that? How would the Church feel and how would society react?

IFirst, I'm not sure he'd have the physical strength to do such a thing , but hey I'll play along. I'd have to say that he was having some sort of break with reality. I can't speak for the church or speak for society, but I can say I believe it would send ripples through out the church and world that would split this church apart. And he's be arrested for murder and no longer be able to lead our church. But he wouldn't do it. Things just aren't done that way today. :)

[Snow]

IFirst, I'm not sure he'd have the physical strength to do such a thing , but hey I'll play along. I'd have to say that he was having some sort of break with reality. I can't speak for the church or speak for society, but I can say I believe it would send ripples through out the church and world that would split this church apart. And he's be arrested for murder and no longer be able to lead our church. But he wouldn't do it. Things just aren't done that way today. :)

"TODAY" is right.

Today we would view such actions as barbaric if not insane, regardless of whether he - a prophet - told us that God wanted him to commit murder. But cloak the same act in the obscurity of ancient history in a land unknown and it all seems plausible to us.

There is a reason why, when you go to a general conference, they don't break a loaf of bread that feeds 24,000 people but that sort of "miracle" happened all the time 2000 years ago.

Make it distant and unconnected enough (to present reality) and many people can and do accept just about anything.

... and in answer to your question: because it was cold-blooded murder. We, as a moral people, do not believe in cold-blooded murder.

[Cassiopeia]

"TODAY" is right.

Today we would view such actions as barbaric if not insane, regardless of whether he - a prophet - told us that God wanted him to commit murder. But cloak the same act in the obscurity of ancient history in a land unknown and it all seems plausible to us.

There is a reason why, when you go to a general conference, they don't break a loaf of bread that feeds 24,000 people but that sort of "miracle" happened all the time 2000 years ago.

Make it distant and unconnected enough (to present reality) and many people can and do accept just about anything.

... and in answer to your question: because it was cold-blooded murder. We, as a moral people, do not believe in cold-blooded murder.

which is why I approach scriptural writings and interpretation with caution. I've been accused by a lot of people for picking and choosing what I can accept out of the standard works. I clearly wihtout any hesitation say it's my right to do so.

I do not worship the God of the Old Testament because I believe that the writings are in error. If that makes me a fluffy bunny who doesn't believe in the harshness of God's horrible wrath (which btw, I've never experienced, on the wrath of those who claim to represent him) then I'm a fluffy bunny and will go buy a nice pink pair of slippers with bunny ears tomorrow.

[jayanna]

Let me pose a question.

Suppose that President Monson had a beef with the Salt Lake mayor or attorney general or whatever. Suppose that he then chopped off the mayor's head with a machete. Let's say then that he said that God wanted him to do it.

How would you feel about that? How would the Church feel and how would society react?

Okay, first I would make darn sure to let Pres. Monson know that the Lord isn't mad at me at all <-me

Second, we have had both church Presidents and Apostles in jail before, most of them were killed there, though. Then he would be a martyr and we would love him even more. Statues, re-name buildings, the works.

Of course, if God asked ME to kill somebody, I'd wanna see the getaway car first. I'm just sayin'...

Edited August 5, 2010 by jayanna

[Elgama]

The issue is not whether having your head chopped off is nicer than having a stroke. The issues is that if God wanted him dead, He could have done it himself rather than ordering his servant to commit murder.

He could of but he didn't. And due to the change in times President Monson has the option of shooting the Mayor of SLC and if it was in defence of his family which is what the killing of Laban is portrayed as being what would you think? If the Mayor of SLC was holding your family captive and killing him would free them would you think that was right or wrong?

[crazypotato]

Let me pose a question.

Suppose that President Monson had a beef with the Salt Lake mayor or attorney general or whatever. Suppose that he then chopped off the mayor's head with a machete. Let's say then that he said that God wanted him to do it.

How would you feel about that? How would the Church feel and how would society react?

It wouldn't happen that way because it didn't happen that way in the Book of Mormon. If the prophet had a problem with the mayor, he could go through legal channels. Laman first just asked for the plates. Then if that didn't work, he would offer a deal with the mayor - Lemuel offered money and riches. Then if the mayor took the deal and didn't follow through with his word, he is different from a king, so Pres Monson would probably encourage the police or a law firm to go after the mayor. We live in a freer country than Nephi's time. I am assuming that Laban wasn't accountable for stealing their riches and then trying to kill them.

Now if President Monson were dealing with an evil dictator that was ruthless, dangerous, and could do whatever cruel things he wanted to Pres Monson with no recourse for him, and Pres Monson was trying to get the only scripture set that existed on the earth, with no other copies, and chopped off the dictator's head with a machete and ran away, I would say, "Good for President Monson for having the courage to do something so frightening and repulsive to him, for the greater good of the world."

[crazypotato]

He could of but he didn't. And due to the change in times President Monson has the option of shooting the Mayor of SLC and if it was in defence of his family which is what the killing of Laban is portrayed as being what would you think? If the Mayor of SLC was holding your family captive and killing him would free them would you think that was right or wrong?

President Monson would just call the police, and the police would shoot the mayor.