Did Adam and Eve...

[pam]

But then that's not what this thread is about is it?

[Wingnut]

Perhaps you would also like to read some previous threads on the subject:

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/17588-were-adam-eve-born.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/27592-belly-button.html

Tsk, tsk. Pammy, you posted without having read the thread! http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/33990-did-adam-eve.html#post526191

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminarysnoozer,

My individual identity is inseparable from who I am. The characteristics (not blemishes) that make me recognizable are part of my eternal identity, which includes my gender. Our bodies have the identifying characteristics of our spirits. We are individuals, and the gospel plan is all about the continuation of our individual development. The spirit and the body is the true identity of ourselves.

And in this dispensation the Lord revealed that “the spirit and the body are the soul of man” (D&C 88:15).

A truth that really is and always will be is that the body and the spirit constitute our reality and identity.

When body and spirit are inseparably connected, we can receive a fulness of joy; when they are separated, we cannot receive a fulness of joy (see D&C 93:33–34).

You can believe how you wish, but what you are saying just does not seem right at all. We are not going to turn into clones, we are going to maintain our eternal individuality, as we did when we entered mortality. The main difference after the resurrection is immortality.

Having the countenance of the Savior is not referring to the removal of individuality.

We are here for these bodies which have taken our very own individual appearance, that of our spirit.

You highlighted the wrong part of D&C 93:33, "When body and spirit are inseparably connected" should have been focused on more. Only after we receive the perfected body do the body and spirit make up the soul of man that constitute our true identity. I don't know about you but my previous identity (pre-earth life) is clouded by a thick veil, I can't remember all that I have learned and all that I had become before this life but after this life all of that plus the things I learn here will become who I really am. When added to the things that I knew previously that will make me a very different person than what I am now. My veil is so thick, I can't even tell you how much I've learned previously. I know, though, whatever it is, I know it's a lot more than I could learn in this corrupted flesh. My true personality is corrupted by this flesh, at least for now, because I am not perfect. If you are perfectly overcoming the desires of your body, great, congratulations. Most of us haven't are not really that close. Jesus is the only one that I know how has. He is the only one I know who's spiritual personality is similar to his physical body. We can only strive to be like that. ... maybe you don't have such a corrupted body, that's great.

I can't overcome this body, this personality, the wiring of the neurons in my frontal lobes that gives me spontaneous and random thoughts and the hypothalamus that gives me primitive drives, on my own. The purpose of this situation though is

not

to reveal who we really are by putting a veil over our spiritual influence but to be placed in specific situations that God knows we should be to see if we listen to the spirit more than the flesh and overcome this corrupted body. For most of us, we strive to get there but we fall short. Now, if you want to keep the traits of the corrupted body which dictates most of your actions in this life, go ahead ... I want an non-corrupted one when this is done, so my spiritual personality shines pure through the body, not overpowered by temporal drives and passions.

[Vanhin]

Our disagreement is in who Adam's physical body was parented by. That's all.

That seems to be the case.

I believe scripture says it was Father and Mother.

I don't agree that the scriptures say any such thing, though I'm aware that some people believe it. I think it would mean that Jesus is not the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, whether the flesh was mortal or immortal is irrelevant to the designation. God the Father sired only one Son in the flesh. See -> LDS.org - Search

Like I pointed out, the last three verses in Moses 6 clarify what is meant by "son of God" as applied to Adam in that chapter, and it teaches that we can all become sons of God (spiritually begotten, heirs) the same way. Moses was likewise called a "son of God" (Moses 1:13), and clearly his physical body was not sired by God the Father. Also, your application of "son of God" from Moses 6:22 is inconstant with all the other references to "sons of God" in the surrounding chapters in Moses. For example, in the very next chapter, Enoch is said to continue to teach the true meaning of the designation (as it applies to everyone else besides the Only Begotten) to his posterity.

And it came to pass that Enoch continued his speech, saying: Behold, our father Adam taught these things, and many have believed and become the sons of God, and many have believed not, and have perished in their sins, and are looking forth with fear, in torment, for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God to be poured out upon them. (Moses 7:1)

Clearly what is meant, as far as the genealogical reference in concerned, is that Adam was the first man, and first "son of God" in the spiritually begotten sense, which was possible because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which was forthcoming. The point is Adam had communion with God, and was redeemed from the fall, and was thus a "son of God", and he was commanded to teach his posterity the gospel so that they could likewise become sons and daughters of God in the same sense.

I believe Adam and Eve were originally mortal beings, who were kept immortal in their innocent state by the Tree of Life. This is clearly a very plausible belief, since when they were cast out of the garden, the Lord placed Cherubim and a flaming sword to prevent them from access to that tree lest they should partake of it and live forever in their sins.

It is therefore more likely that Adam and Eve were born to mortal parents and placed on earth (as BY opined), than they being born to God the Father and a heavenly mother, since the latter would render the doctrine false which teaches that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

You highlighted the wrong part of D&C 93:33, "When body and spirit are inseparably connected" should have been focused on more. Only after we receive the perfected body do the body and spirit make up the soul of man that constitute our true identity. I don't know about you but my previous identity (pre-earth life) is clouded by a thick veil, I can't remember all that I have learned and all that I had become before this life but after this life all of that plus the things I learn here will become who I really am.

I am who I really am right now, and so are you. That is the reality expressed in the quotes I provided. We have individual identity which is quite tangible. The plan of Happiness allows us to obtain bodies, which will ultimately become an inseparable part of our identity.

We will not be changing into clones. I hope you are not counting on that too much.

When added to the things that I knew previously that will make me a very different person than what I am now. My veil is so thick, I can't even tell you how much I've learned previously. I know, though, whatever it is, I know it's a lot more than I could learn in this corrupted flesh. My true personality is corrupted by this flesh, at least for now, because I am not perfect. If you are perfectly overcoming the desires of your body, great, congratulations. Most of us haven't are not really that close. Jesus is the only one that I know how has. He is the only one I know who's spiritual personality is similar to his physical body. We can only strive to be like that. ... maybe you don't have such a corrupted body, that's great.

I can't overcome this body, this personality, the wiring of the neurons in my frontal lobes that gives me spontaneous and random thoughts and the hypothalamus that gives me primitive drives, on my own. The purpose of this situation though is not to reveal who we really are by putting a veil over our spiritual influence but to be placed in specific situations that God knows we should be to see if we listen to the spirit more than the flesh and overcome this corrupted body. For most of us, we strive to get there but we fall short. Now, if you want to keep the traits of the corrupted body which dictates most of your actions in this life, go ahead ... I want an non-corrupted one when this is done, so my spiritual personality shines pure through the body, not overpowered by temporal drives and passions.

Your spirit looks like your physical body, without all the frailties, and that semblance is an eternal part of your identity. When we are resurrected, we will, like all the resurrected beings who appeared to Joseph Smith, continue our individual semblance and be as identifiable as were Peter, James, John, Moroni, and so forth.

Also, the trees and the animals, and all the many things that bring joy and happiness in this life, including the associations we make with people and art - all things that are put in the temporal state to beautify the world and to give it variety, will be with us when the earth receives its celestial glory. Only the magnificence of it all will be beyond our wildest dreams. I think you are mistaken.

The good things of this world are a shadow of things to come, and we are placed here to have joy. Don't think for one second that the physical is not needed, the melding of the spiritual and physical is the ticket to attaining the fullness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God (D&C 93:35)

Your idea of heaven, and exaltation does not seem like either to me, but I respect your freedom to believe as you wish.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Maya]

I believe scripture says it was Father and Mother.

I have to say I need to desagree on that as Jesus was Gods only begotten Son....

Good points Vanhin ....

[mordorbund]

Luke 3:

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, who was formed of God, and the first man upon the earth.

Joseph Smith fixed that for you.

Moses 6:

22 And this is the genealogy of the sons of Adam, who was the son of God, with whom God, himself, conversed.

Reading the genealogy, this looks like it may be related to priesthood descent or the covenant relationship of the sons of God. I couldn't help but notice that Cain is absent in this line, which suggests to me that it is other than a physical line.

[Justice]

I believe Adam and Eve were originally mortal beings, who were kept immortal in their innocent state by the Tree of Life. This is clearly a very plausible belief, since when they were cast out of the garden, the Lord placed Cherubim and a flaming sword to prevent them from access to that tree lest they should partake of it and live forever in their sins.

This would mean that all animals on the earth at that time had to eat of the tree of life in order to keep them from dying (unless you suggest they actually were immortal). I suppose it's plausible.

It seems a stretch to beleive this and at the same time believe that Adam fell when he partook of the forbidden fruit. If partaking of the tree of life is what prevented Adam from dying, then partaking of the forbidden fruit didn't actually cause a fall. Not partaking of the tree of life brought about the fall.

I don't believe the fruit itself had any bearing on whether his body was immortal or mortal. I believe it was transgression that caused the fall, and not something in the fruit. Otherwise, all life would have had to partake of the forbidden fruit (or not partake of the tree of life) in order for all flesh to fall.

I believe Adam and Eve chose not to partake of the tree of life after falling (Alma 12 and 42). I believe they chose to become mortal, or they chose to follow God's plan and not Satan's. I don't think God removed their agency, in fact I believe He offered them the choice. It was Satan's plan for them to partake of the tree of life after falling. I don't believe they would have to re-partake over and over to not die. I believe it says had they partaken they would have lived forever.

I guess I just assume that to be true before hand as well. I don't think they had to re-partake of the tree of life over and over.

It is therefore more likely that Adam and Eve were born to mortal parents and placed on earth (as BY opined), than they being born to God the Father and a heavenly mother, since the latter would render the doctrine false which teaches that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh.

I don't believe it renders it false. I guess all we can do is disagree. I will try to find other sources where this distinction is made

Edited August 14, 2010 by Justice

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am who I really am right now, and so are you. That is the reality expressed in the quotes I provided. We have individual identity which is quite tangible. The plan of Happiness allows us to obtain bodies, which will ultimately become an inseparable part of our identity.

We will not be changing into clones. I hope you are not counting on that too much.

Your spirit looks like your physical body, without all the frailties, and that semblance is an eternal part of your identity. When we are resurrected, we will, like all the resurrected beings who appeared to Joseph Smith, continue our individual semblance and be as identifiable as were Peter, James, John, Moroni, and so forth.

Also, the trees and the animals, and all the many things that bring joy and happiness in this life, including the associations we make with people and art - all things that are put in the temporal state to beautify the world and to give it variety, will be with us when the earth receives its celestial glory. Only the magnificence of it all will be beyond our wildest dreams. I think you are mistaken.

The good things of this world are a shadow of things to come, and we are placed here to have joy. Don't think for one second that the physical is not needed, the melding of the spiritual and physical is the ticket to attaining the fullness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God (D&C 93:35)

Your idea of heaven, and exaltation does not seem like either to me, but I respect your freedom to believe as you wish.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

A couple things to think about Vanhin,

First of all, I threw that out there as a thought, not a belief. It is just something to ponder and maybe even direct what we focus on in this life. I don't "count on being a clone" anymore than I would be so prideful to fall in love with my own body and couldn't imagine having any other form. The soul, the spirit persists. This body doesn't. There are many kinds of pride, for country, cause etc but the evil pride characterized in the BOM is individual, one over the other.

If you could give me one good reason why your perfected body should look one way or another, whatever that answer is, is a prideful one. What does it matter that the body looks like it did during a temporary testing state? Why is that important to you? If I had a clue as to why having a Mendelian genetics determined body for the eternities is necessary to becoming like God maybe I could support that thought without me feeling like it is just my natural, corrupted body's prideful influence over my spiritual thoughts.

Another important point, when you say "without all the frailties" you pass over that like it doesn't mean much. That, to me, is a very big change. Everything around us is frail because it is mortal. Our body as a whole is frail, it dies. We have the most brain cells we are ever going to have around puberty and then its a downhill slide from there for example. If our whole body is frail and you take that away, what are you left with, I don't think you know what that is and I don't think you know what that looks like exactly. We know the outline, the image, but that is it. And especially, if you take away all the "frailties" made by mutations off the original copy. God made Adam and Eve in his image and we are like the copy that has been copied thousands of times over on a copy machine, clear all that up and go back to the original. I agree with taking all the frailties away. What is a frailty? Something that is not 100% the way it was intended to be or the way it was originally created, right? After the fall everything became frail. Your and my appearance is frail.

[Justice]

To clarify, God didn't say "In the day you stop eating of the tree of life you will surely die," He said," The day you partake of the forbidden fruit you will surely die."

That's what I was getting at.

In any case, I believe it was the act of disobedience that actually caused the fall, and not any charateristic in the fruit. I believe they were born of immortal parents, specifically an immortal mother, giving birth after her kind, meaning they were born immortal and fell to the state of death, or mortality.

And, if you believe Adam was "mortal" but kept alive by the tree of life, then you don't believe Christ literally reversed the affects of the fall in His own body. Adam went from immortal to mortal, Christ went from mortal to immortal while yet on earth. I believe this literally. I believe Christ literally did not have to die. I believe He gave up the ghost because He had purged Himself of blood. He didn't just "bleed," He purged Himself of blood, making Himself immortal.

Interesting discussion. I do see your points, and they are very hard for me to side-step (not that I'm trying to). I have always believed Adam was born of Father and Mother and have always viewed the scriptures as symbols of this, if not more specific in some areas. I will certainly ponder and study this.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Justice

[pam]

Tsk, tsk. Pammy, you posted without having read the thread! http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/33990-did-adam-eve.html#post526191

Oh contrere. I read every bit of the thread. I was posting it again as a moderator.

[Seminarysnoozer]

...have bellybuttons?

We know Christ did, while on Earth, since he was born of Mary.

We also do, too. And while we are made in the image of God, Christ and God look the same.

But the bellybutton is nothing more than a scar. We are told that our bodies will be perfect, without scars, in the resurrection.

I also understand that Adam and Eve had perfect bodies in the garden.

So considering all these things... did they have belly buttons??

After following many similar threads related to this topic that Pam has provided, it seems that there are many that post in this forum that want the answer to your question to be "yes"?

I don't know the answer and it isn't revealed to the general members as far as I can tell. The thing about this question is that I can't understand why some members have so much passion about the need for Adam and Eve's body to be born and not created. I think all LDS can easily agree that Adam and Eve were born spiritually but why is it necessary that there bodies were born similarly?

We know that God can create bodies for which spirits can inhabit because essentially that is what the resurrection is. Some would say that that isn't really 'creating' a body. Really? How is it then that God could take the dust of the individual that died 3000 years ago and form the physical body made from elements of this Earth to allow that person to be resurrected with a perfect physical body? That body has to be made! It would be a hard argument to say that that body is "born" ... I wouldn't want to be the mother of that body as it is made in it's perfect, adult form. yikes! So, if one believes in resurrection of individuals who have died long ago and their bodies have turned to dust, for sure, creating an adult perfect body from the dust of this earth is not an issue at all for God. If this can readily be done, why?, why?, why? does Adam and Eve's bodies, in the mind of some, have to be born? What piece of the gospel is lost if they weren't born and simply created? Remember, just like us, they and we are all sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father already, spiritually. Even when their bodies are created from the elements of this Earth, they are still son and daughter to God (spiritually) and we can then clearly say that Adam is the father of mankind.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[Vanhin]

It's not that we just "want the answer to be yes", it's that it is the most consistent answer with everything that we know from our own experience and the scriptures. The scriptures strongly suggest that Adam was born, as we have already demonstrated (See Moses 6:59). The scriptures constitute revelation on the matter... That is the main reason we believe it. I also have no problems with the idea that bodies can be fashion by the power of God... I believe even the process that produced my mortal body is done by the power of God, as He is my Creator. My parents were participants in that miracle. I also believe in the reality of the resurrection.

The Lord fashioned for Adam a garment of the holy priesthood, as a shield and a protection, and to cover his nakedness. Adam and Eve were first of us here on this earth to wear the garment, and obviously some of the symbolism in the garment would be lost to them if they did not have navels...

No matter how Adam and Eve's bodies came to be, they had navels.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

The thing about this question is that I can't understand why some members have so much passion about the need for Adam and Eve's body to be born and not created. I think all LDS can easily agree that Adam and Eve were born spiritually but why is it necessary that there bodies were born similarly?

Two things further. First being born is being created. God has fashioned all of our bodies, not just Adam and Eve's. I'm not sure what you think the difference is. In case you did not know yet, magic plays no part in our religion... Everything that happens is governed by eternal law. In case you missed it before here is the reference.

...inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul... (Moses 6:59)

The above reference was the Lord speaking to Adam. To be created of the dust of the earth, is to be born.

Second, if the spirits of Adam and Eve were born of heavenly parents, then I have no hard time at all believing that spirit bodies have navels as well...

I think you are having a hard time accepting that this world was "patterned after" the world where God exists and where we came from. It's only the corruption that is going away when the earth receives it's celestial glory, and we are exalted. The variety and beauty (things that you call random) will remain, because when God created it, He said it was good. The magnificence and glory of it all, however, will be that of God.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited August 14, 2010 by Vanhin

[Vanhin]

A couple of things to add to this.

To clarify, God didn't say "In the day you stop eating of the tree of life you will surely die," He said," The day you partake of the forbidden fruit you will surely die."

That's what I was getting at.

In any case, I believe it was the act of disobedience that actually caused the fall, and not any charateristic in the fruit. I believe they were born of immortal parents, specifically an immortal mother, giving birth after her kind, meaning they were born immortal and fell to the state of death, or mortality.

That's right. Adam fell because of transgression. But obviously he had to be cast out of the garden and guarded from partaking of the tree of life any more, or he would have lived forever in his sins. That's right from the scriptures. :)

And, if you believe Adam was "mortal" but kept alive by the tree of life, then you don't believe Christ literally reversed the affects of the fall in His own body. Adam went from immortal to mortal, Christ went from mortal to immortal while yet on earth. I believe this literally. I believe Christ literally did not have to die. I believe He gave up the ghost because He had purged Himself of blood. He didn't just "bleed," He purged Himself of blood, making Himself immortal.

Since Adam did not know the difference between good and evil, and had not yet been tested and prevailed, whatever his body was in the garden, it was not a celestial body, as those redeemed from the fall will receive in the resurrection. He did not have the fullness of the Father before the fall, which appears to be your premise. The garden and the tree of life obviously played a role in the maintenance of the their terrestrial bodies, or else there would not have been a need to prevent them from access to them after the fall.

Interesting discussion. I do see your points, and they are very hard for me to side-step (not that I'm trying to). I have always believed Adam was born of Father and Mother and have always viewed the scriptures as symbols of this, if not more specific in some areas. I will certainly ponder and study this.

Yeah, it has been an interesting conversation, as always. I'm actually glad we had it because this is where you and I left off before. :) I think at least we understand one another a little better now.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Edited August 14, 2010 by Vanhin

[Justice]

That's right. Adam fell because of transgression. But obviously he had to be cast out of the garden and guarded from partaking of the tree of life any more, or he would have lived forever in his sins. That's right from the scriptures.

Not necessarily. I read those verses that Adam chose not to partake of it and the guard was placed for "man" not to partake. Other men, who were to be born, might partake of it if presented a choice. It never specifically says the guard was placed for Adam.

So, I don't think Adam had to be guarded from it because he already chose not to partake of it. Perhaps he might have changed his mind later, but I doubt it.

Let me know what you think after looking up those verses.

[Vanhin]

Not necessarily. I read those verses that Adam chose not to partake of it and the guard was placed for "man" not to partake. Other men, who were to be born, might partake of it if presented a choice. It never specifically says the guard was placed for Adam.

So, I don't think Adam had to be guarded from it because he already chose not to partake of it. Perhaps he might have changed his mind later, but I doubt it.

Let me know what you think after looking up those verses.

Well, the verse in Genesis says God "drove out [man]; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. ". Since at the time the only representation of "man" was Adam and Eve, it would seem self evident that they are whom He was primarily guarding against. However, thanks to other authoritative sources, we have plenty of clarity on the matter.

21 What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever.

22 Now Alma said unto him: This is the thing which I was about to explain. Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die. (Alma 12:21-23)

I just participated in an endowment session yesterday, and Adam is named specifically as the person the cherubim and flaming sword was placed there to guard against. Make note of it the next time you are there. :)

Obviously mankind in general is not meant to partake of the tree of life either until we have been redeemed from the fall, and are admitted back into the presence of the Lord. Luckily Adam did not die right away, but was given a chance to work out his salvation by the power of the Atonement, and also the rest of us have been granted a time to repent and prepare ourselves to meet God.

And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken.

And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect. (Alma 12:24-26)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Seminarysnoozer]

Joseph Smith fixed that for you.

Reading the genealogy, this looks like it may be related to priesthood descent or the covenant relationship of the sons of God. I couldn't help but notice that Cain is absent in this line, which suggests to me that it is other than a physical line.

It could also suggest that this is a line that there was not much genetic drift from the original. For some reason there is value in carrying the same image as the father. The curse for Cain is that he was made to look different. And the blessing for Seth is that he was in the express image of his father Adam. Even Abraham wanted a son that looked like him. I don't know what the value is to that, just pointing it out. Even Jesus said, when you see me, you see the Father. That might be literally more possible if his line was kept pure in terms of genetic drift and mutation. .... just a thought.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It's not that we just "want the answer to be yes", it's that it is the most consistent answer with everything that we know from our own experience and the scriptures. The scriptures strongly suggest that Adam was born, as we have already demonstrated (See Moses 6:59). The scriptures constitute revelation on the matter... That is the main reason we believe it. I also have no problems with the idea that bodies can be fashion by the power of God... I believe even the process that produced my mortal body is done by the power of God, as He is my Creator. My parents were participants in that miracle. I also believe in the reality of the resurrection.

The Lord fashioned for Adam a garment of the holy priesthood, as a shield and a protection, and to cover his nakedness. Adam and Eve were first of us here on this earth to wear the garment, and obviously some of the symbolism in the garment would be lost to them if they did not have navels...

No matter how Adam and Eve's bodies came to be, they had navels.

Regards,

Vanhin

Our ways are not God's ways necessarily. There is no need to make God follow our temporal conditions. We are striving for the other way around, to follow God's ways. There is no need to make God's ways consistent "with everything we know from our own experience." I try, even though it is hard to do, not to put that restriction on God's works. I think it is more important to make God's work consistent with everything we know about God, which is that he can create a body for a spirit to inhabit as with what happens in resurrection.

[Vanhin]

It could also suggest that this is a line that there was not much genetic drift from the original. For some reason there is value in carrying the same image as the father. The curse for Cain is that he was made to look different. And the blessing for Seth is that he was in the express image of his father Adam. Even Abraham wanted a son that looked like him. I don't know what the value is to that, just pointing it out. Even Jesus said, when you see me, you see the Father. That might be literally more possible if his line was kept pure in terms of genetic drift and mutation. .... just a thought.

Seth did look like Adam. D&C 138:40 mentions that Seth was in the "express image" of his father Adam, but no such mention of his brother Abel or anyone else in that lineage. Was Abel not kept pure from genetic drift, being a first generation man like Seth?

"Express image" is used in scripture to mean someone looks like another person. The only other person with that designation in scripture is Jesus Christ, who we learn looks just like the Father.

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb. 1:1-3)

I think Mordorbund is right on the money. If you look at Moses 6 verses 22-23 together, it becomes clear that we are talking about a priesthood lineage, which was patriarchal.

22 And this is the genealogy of the sons of Adam, who was the son of God, with whom God, himself, conversed.

23 And they were preachers of righteousness, and spake and prophesied, and called upon all men, everywhere, to repent; and faith was taught unto the children of men. (Moses 6:22-23)

Obviously this is a patriarchal priesthood lineage since Adam had many children and lines who are not included in this genealogy, as has been pointed out, and since the scriptures in question actually say it is a priesthood lineage. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Our ways are not God's ways necessarily. There is no need to make God follow our temporal conditions.

If I was saying that God should follow our temporal conditions, then you would have a good argument here.

We are striving for the other way around, to follow God's ways. There is no need to make God's ways consistent "with everything we know from our own experience." I try, even though it is hard to do, not to put that restriction on God's works. I think it is more important to make God's work consistent with everything we know about God, which is that he can create a body for a spirit to inhabit as with what happens in resurrection.

Our world is patterned after the world from whence we came, where God dwells. The temporal conditions are missing there and the glory of God abides there in everything. However, beauty and variety are not temporal conditions, and identity is not a temporal but an eternal condition.

Also, I'm not arguing that God cannot create a body for the spirit to inhabit. You haven't addressed my response to your "created vs. born" argument. Obviously God has created all of our bodies. We owe thanks to Him for the creation of our tabernacles, as Brigham Young said in an earlier quote that I posted.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited August 15, 2010 by Vanhin

[Seminarysnoozer]

Two things further. First being born is being created. God has fashioned all of our bodies, not just Adam and Eve's. I'm not sure what you think the difference is. In case you did not know yet, magic plays no part in our religion... Everything that happens is governed by eternal law. In case you missed it before here is the reference.

...inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul... (Moses 6:59)

The above reference was the Lord speaking to Adam. To be created of the dust of the earth, is to be born.

Second, if the spirits of Adam and Eve were born of heavenly parents, then I have no hard time at all believing that spirit bodies have navels as well...

I think you are having a hard time accepting that this world was "patterned after" the world where God exists and where we came from. It's only the corruption that is going away when the earth receives it's celestial glory, and we are exalted. The variety and beauty (things that you call random) will remain, because when God created it, He said it was good. The magnificence and glory of it all, however, will be that of God.

Regards,

Vanhin

I don't have a hard time accepting the fact that this world is "patterned after" the world where God exists and where we came from. The thing that you and I may have different opinions about is how far the fall was. For me this world is like comparing a 2 dimensional map with the real world. Where you are trying to suggest that our world is so close to God's world that if we just cleaned it up a bit, it would be exactly like it. For me, the magnificence of which Jesus gave to us is magnified by how far the world was changed and fallen from it's paradisaical state.

We have a scale for comparison, if you really want to put it into perspective. We have been told that the Earth is operating in a Telestial state for the last 6000 years. We know how different that is from a Celestial world by comparing it to the magnitude of difference between the brightness of the Sun compared to the brightness of the stars. To be specific, (even if my numbers are off a bit - making a point) Alpha Centari is 62.5 billion times less bright than the Sun. So, you are trying to compare our telestial state bodies which are 62.5 billion times less glorious than God's celestial body, if we were to use that scale. Of course it is a metaphor and not exact, but the metaphor is there for a reason, to give perspective.

Even without using numbers, simply compare the magnitude of light from a star to that of the sun. That is how far our bodies have changed from the fall and compared to what they will be like when are resurrected. I think we believe the same principles, just our perspectives are different. I think Moses said it best after he saw the difference first hand, he came back and said, Man is nothing.

The further the fall the greater the glory to what Jesus has done to save us. I think I would be careful about suggesting things that shorten the fall, but that's just me.

[Seminarysnoozer]

If I was saying that God should follow our temporal conditions, then you would have a good argument here.

Our world is patterned after the world from whence we came, where God dwells. The temporal conditions are missing there and the glory of God abides there in everything. However, beauty and variety are not temporal conditions, and identity is not a temporal but an eternal condition.

Also, I'm not arguing that God cannot create a body for the spirit to inhabit. You haven't addressed my response to your "created vs. born" argument. Obviously God has created all of our bodies. We owe thanks to Him for the creation of our tabernacles, as Brigham Young said in an earlier quote that I posted.

Regards,

Vanhin

This is another point that you and I differ, mostly in semantics but I think it changes how you view this body. God created my body only in the sense that He created Adam's and gave Adam and Eve the opportunity to allow it to happen. God did not "create" corruption. Adam fell that men might be. I think you believe that too. The word "corrupted" is not being used as a reference to sin. We don't believe that we are born into sin and yet we believe that we are born into corruption. Then what does that mean, it means our bodies are corrupted from the beginning. Changed and altered bodies from what God originally created. This makes it possible for people to even be born with tendencies that pull away from God, it is part of the test.

We are learning about these factors all the time that make people prone to Alcoholism, sexual deviance, anger, etc. Let me give you a small one that we have recently discovered. We know of one of the genes now that leads to being a "night owl," the hPER 2 gene which regulates protein released by the suprachiasmatic nucleus. This protein tells us how long to wait after the sun goes down to initiate sleep. If a persons brain makes more of this protein which is genetically encoded they will have a tendency to go to bed later than most even if they don't want to. And the person can't change that. All they can do is try to overcome that. We are told by our leaders to go to bed early. Well, this is a specific gene that a person may be born with that goes against that principle. People even use that trait to describe their personality, "hey, I'm a night owl." But that is a genetically encoded trait. So, our physical body is the temporal pull that creates the choice between good and evil. Why would you want that in the next life? I don't want anything like that, I want to rest from that 'natural' carnal pull. By taking all those carnal tendencies away, my personality, I'm sure, will be very different there compared to here. If you want to say that God 'created' evil tendencies, go ahead. I use different words for that, He gave agency to Adam and then, in turn, our bodies were made. The variability and mutations off the original creation are part of the corruption that allows us to be tested, so it is useful but not who we really are. We have to try to remember who we really are by listening to the spirit, not our bodies.

If a person does not overcome certain traits, then I agree, those habits and "personalities" can be seared into their spirit and remain into the next life, but that is the test. In other words, even if a person has a genetic tendency for alcoholism here, it won't carry through in the next life if they don't give into those tendencies.

[Vanhin]

Seminarysnoozer,

Thanks for taking the time to share your point of view. It adds a lot to the conversation in general. Gotta go!

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seth did look like Adam. D&C 138:40 mentions that Seth was in the "express image" of his father Adam, but no such mention of his brother Abel or anyone else in that lineage. Was Abel not kept pure from genetic drift, being a first generation man like Seth?

"Express image" is used in scripture to mean someone looks like another person. The only other person with that designation in scripture is Jesus Christ, who we learn looks just like the Father.

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb. 1:1-3)

I think Mordorbund is right on the money. If you look at Moses 6 verses 22-23 together, it becomes clear that we are talking about a priesthood lineage, which was patriarchal.

22 And this is the genealogy of the sons of Adam, who was the son of God, with whom God, himself, conversed.

23 And they were preachers of righteousness, and spake and prophesied, and called upon all men, everywhere, to repent; and faith was taught unto the children of men. (Moses 6:22-23)

Obviously this is a patriarchal priesthood lineage since Adam had many children and lines who are not included in this genealogy, as has been pointed out, and since the scriptures in question actually say it is a priesthood lineage. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

Sure, nothing in the scriptures has two meanings. If you find one, throw out every other connotation.