Racially disconnected in Church?

[Vanhin]

The general membership of the church cannot stand the idea of their beloved Prophet being just a human being! That the Prophet may have their own opinions and ideas.

Always remember that our Prophets are still men... and they can and do make mistakes.

But God does not make mistakes. This practice was in effect for several generations of latter-day prophets and many of them prayed specifically about the ban during their tenure. Yet the Lord in his wisdom did not lift the ban until His own time.

This wouldn't have been just some mistake, this would have indeed been "leading the Church astray" if it wasn't the will of the Lord. I don't believe the Lord would have allowed it to continue so long if it wasn't His will. We are talking about the priesthood after all, and the blessings of the temple being denied to a people of a specific lineage.

Your assertions and speculations about it being a mistake is on par with those who speculated that the ban would never be lifted in this life time. You cannot just chalk this issue up as a mistake without challenging the validity of our modern prophets, mainly because it spanned generations of prophets and required specific revelation before it could be ended.

I like to clarify the following whenever this issue comes up. The ban affected blacks of African decent (see Mormonism and racial issues/Blacks and the priesthood - FAIRMormon). No other race or lineage was affected. All other people of color were allowed to receive the priesthood and the blessings of the temple, including Australian aborigines.

These two men, for example, would have been eligible if they were worthy:

Two other things.

1) In ancient Israel, only male descendants of Levi were allowed to receive the Aaronic priesthood and participate in temple ordinances, excluding all other people, including other Israelites who depended on them for these priestly duties. Also, beyond that, only male descendants of Aaron were ordained as priests, and the only firstborn male descendants of Aaron were entitled to the office of high priest. (see Mormonism and racial issues/Blacks and the priesthood/Deny based on race - FAIRMormon)

2) The lineage of the Pharaohs in Egypt, apparently in ancient days did not have a right to the Priesthood according to the Book of Abraham. (See Reference Search: Abraham 1:26-27)

My point? Is that it is not unheard of, for God to exclude a certain lineage from the priesthood, or restrict it only to a people of a certain lineage.

I reject, wholesale, the notion that God allowed our prophets to perpetrate a mistake of this magnitude for so long. The ban was indeed the will of the Lord, we just don't know the reason for it.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Suzie]

I thought Elder Holland's interview on PBS gave a little more insight into all these assumptions and theories of why Black were not able the Priesthood:

PBS: I've talked to many blacks and many whites as well about the lingering folklore [about why blacks couldn't have the priesthood]. These are faithful Mormons who are delighted about this revelation, and yet who feel something more should be said about the folklore and even possibly about the mysterious reasons for the ban itself, which was not a revelation; it was a practice. So if you could, briefly address the concerns Mormons have about this folklore and what should be done.

Holland: One clear-cut position is that the folklore must never be perpetuated. ... I have to concede to my earlier colleagues. ... They, I'm sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong. ...

It probably would have been advantageous to say nothing, to say we just don't know, and, [as] with many religious matters, whatever was being done was done on the basis of faith at that time. But some explanations were given and had been given for a lot of years. ... At the very least, there should be no effort to perpetuate those efforts to explain why that doctrine existed. I think, to the extent that I know anything about it, as one of the newer and younger ones to come along, ... we simply do not know why that practice, that policy, that doctrine was in place.

PBS: What is the folklore, quite specifically?

Holland: Well, some of the folklore that you must be referring to are suggestions that there were decisions made in the pre-mortal councils where someone had not been as decisive in their loyalty to a Gospel plan or the procedures on earth or what was to unfold in mortality, and that therefore that opportunity and mortality was compromised. I really don't know a lot of the details of those, because fortunately I've been able to live in the period where we're not expressing or teaching them, but I think that's the one I grew up hearing the most, was that it was something to do with the pre-mortal councils. ... But I think that's the part that must never be taught until anybody knows a lot more than I know. ... We just don't know, in the historical context of the time, why it was practiced. ... That's my principal [concern], is that we don't perpetuate explanations about things we don't know. ...

We don't pretend that something wasn't taught or practice wasn't pursued for whatever reason. But I think we can be unequivocal and we can be declarative in our current literature, in books that we reproduce, in teachings that go forward, whatever, that from this time forward, from 1978 forward, we can make sure that nothing of that is declared. That may be where we still need to make sure that we're absolutely dutiful, that we put [a] careful eye of scrutiny on anything from earlier writings and teachings, just [to] make sure that that's not perpetuated in the present. That's the least, I think, of our current responsibilities on that topic.

The Mormons . Interviews . Jeffrey Holland | PBS

Zebedee Coltrin and Abraham O. Smoot, quote JS as saying that the blacks were not to have the priesthood "at this time" but those who are a little familiar with Church history knows that Brother Coltrin isn't precisely a good source.

[Suzie]

Elijah Abel even served missions during the ban, as a priesthood holder, baptizing along the way!

Although three apostles ( Heber C. Kimball, Orson Pratt and John Page) restricted his missionary work to his "own people".

[Suzie]

Also the quote of Elder Holland...

PBS: What is the folklore, quite specifically?

Holland: Well, some of the folklore that you must be referring to are suggestions that there were decisions made in the pre-mortal councils where someone had not been as decisive in their loyalty to a Gospel plan or the procedures on earth or what was to unfold in mortality, and that therefore that opportunity and mortality was compromised. I really don't know a lot of the details of those, because fortunately I've been able to live in the period where we're not expressing or teaching them, but I think that's the one I grew up hearing the most, was that it was something to do with the pre-mortal councils. ... But I think that's the part that must never be taught until anybody knows a lot more than I know. ... We just don't know, in the historical context of the time, why it was practiced. ... That's my principal [concern], is that we don't perpetuate explanations about things we don't know. ...

However, the First Presidency back in 1949 said:

...The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the pre-mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes."

[dorave]

But God does not make mistakes.

I reject, wholesale, the notion that God allowed our prophets to perpetrate a mistake of this magnitude for so long. The ban was indeed the will of the Lord, we just don't know the reason for it.

Regards,

Vanhin

Top post.

[rameumptom]

Also the quote of Elder Holland...

However, the First Presidency back in 1949 said:

So, you are going to believe dead prophets over living ones? Brigham Young taught the Adam-God theory and that man cannot be exalted without polygamy. Shall we ignore Wilford Woodruff's revelation and statements from more recent prophets that discount these teachings, simply because BY taught them 140 years ago?

New revelation and prophets trump old ones. Period. And Brigham Young agreed with that assessment.

[Suzie]

So, you are going to believe dead prophets over living ones? Brigham Young taught the Adam-God theory and that man cannot be exalted without polygamy. Shall we ignore Wilford Woodruff's revelation and statements from more recent prophets that discount these teachings, simply because BY taught them 140 years ago?

New revelation and prophets trump old ones. Period. And Brigham Young agreed with that assessment.

Rampeumpton, I didn't say what is my position at all on the Blacks and the Priesthood. The only reason for my quotes was to show a discrepancy. In my personal opinion, some early leaders followed the same sentiment that most people felt at that time towards Blacks: Prejudice. The timing is also interesting taking into consideration William McCary's issue and even though Brigham Young said his reason for stopping certain temple ordinances for blacks wasn't because of this problem, I have my personal reservations.

I am not sure whether the ban was imposed by God or not (that's my honest take). I am leaning towards it wasn't (IMO).

[Vanhin]

So, you are going to believe dead prophets over living ones? Brigham Young taught the Adam-God theory and that man cannot be exalted without polygamy. Shall we ignore Wilford Woodruff's revelation and statements from more recent prophets that discount these teachings, simply because BY taught them 140 years ago?

New revelation and prophets trump old ones. Period. And Brigham Young agreed with that assessment.

The current (or recent) prophet has not given any reason for the ban. The opinion of the First Presidency in 1949, which was quoted, could very well be the reason, we simply do not know. Whereas, the Brethren have explicitly denounces Adam-God (see Church doctrine/Repudiated concepts/Adam-God - FAIRMormon).

However, in the statement from 1949, they are referring to an established and correct doctrine as it applies to fore-ordination and election. For example, we know from modern revelation that some individuals are placed in favorable conditions here on earth based on their faithfulness in the pre-mortal world, in order to fulfill the missions assigned to them here.

Based on premortal worthiness, God chose those who would be the seed of Abraham and the house of Israel and become the covenant people (Deut. 32: 7-9; Abr. 2: 9-11). These people are given special blessings and duties so that they can bless all the nations of the world (Rom. 11: 5-7; 1 Pet. 1: 2; Alma 13: 1-5; D&C 84: 99). However, even these chosen ones must be called and elected in this life in order to gain salvation. (see Guide to the Scriptures: Election , Guide to the Scriptures: Foreordination)

For that to be true, which it is, the opposite must be true for those who were less-valiant. Now, some took that doctrine too far, and opined that there were "fence-sitters" in the pre-mortal existence. Even Brigham Young disagreed with that, though he was clearly speculating about other details concerning this issue.

"No, they were not, there were no neutral [spirits] in Heaven at the time of the rebellion, all took sides.... All spirits are pure that came from the presence of God. The posterity of Cain are black because he committed murder. He killed Abel and God set a mark upon his posterity. But the spirits are pure that enter their tabernacles...." (Journal History, 25 Dec. 1869, citing "Wilford Woodruff's Journal.").

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited August 24, 2010 by Vanhin

[skippy740]

The current (or recent) prophet has not given any reason for the ban.

And there won't be until we accept the light and knowledge we have already received.

The opinion of the First Presidency in 1949, which was quoted, could very well be the reason, we simply do not know. Whereas, the Brethren have explicitly denounces Adam-God (see Church doctrine/Repudiated concepts/Adam-God - FAIRMormon).

All past statements made prior to 1978 regarding the issue are to be "forgotten" as they spoke with limited light and understanding. All the bretheren have said this.

For that to be true, which it is, the opposite must be true for those who were less-valiant. Now, some took that doctrine too far, and opined that there were "fence-sitters" in the pre-mortal existence. Even Brigham Young disagreed with that, though he was clearly speculating about other details concerning this issue.

I don't think this is true and carries an idea further away from what has been revealed to us.

"No, they were not, there were no neutral [spirits] in Heaven at the time of the rebellion, all took sides.... All spirits are pure that came from the presence of God. The posterity of Cain are black because he committed murder. He killed Abel and God set a mark upon his posterity. But the spirits are pure that enter their tabernacles...." (Journal History, 25 Dec. 1869, citing "Wilford Woodruff's Journal.").

I think you may want to study your scriptures on curses. I would encourage you to get a copy of "Blacks in the Scriptures" to enhance your personal study. There's an entire section on Skin Color & Curses that you may find enlightening.

You may find this link helpful in your personal study.

Lesson Outline For Teachers | BlacksInTheScriptures.com

[jayanna]

Darius Gray, former president of Genesis, has written on the early black experience in the LDS Church. Joseph Smith ordained men to the priesthood and sent them on missions.

Elijah Abel even served missions during the ban, as a priesthood holder, baptizing along the way!

Okay, I am not necessarily questioning this, because I know nothing about it, but I have a question about it.

Was he ordained with the A. priest. or the M. P.?

Can't the A.P. baptize?

I can't remember where or why, but I was under the belief that black men in the past were ordained with the A.P. and were only held from recieving the M.P.?

[Suzie]

Okay, I am not necessarily questioning this, because I know nothing about it, but I have a question about it.

Was he ordained with the A. priest. or the M. P.?

Can't the A.P. baptize?

I can't remember where or why, but I was under the belief that black men in the past were ordained with the A.P. and were only held from recieving the M.P.?

Yes, Elijah Abel had the Melchizedek Priesthood, he was a Seventy. He was not the only black man to hold the Priesthood at that time. Walker Lewis, William McCary and the son (Enoch) and grandson (Elijah) of Elijah Abel, all of them were ordained Elders.

[rameumptom]

Yes. And William McCary threw a wrench into all of this. He moved a few miles away from Winter Quarters and encouraged the white LDS sisters to join him in a polygamous marriage and settlement. This really stirred up the Brethren, and it was specifically at this point that the concept of the "curse" began circulating, eventually being adopted by Brigham Young and the 12.

[Suzie]

Yes. And William McCary threw a wrench into all of this. He moved a few miles away from Winter Quarters and encouraged the white LDS sisters to join him in a polygamous marriage and settlement. This really stirred up the Brethren, and it was specifically at this point that the concept of the "curse" began circulating, eventually being adopted by Brigham Young and the 12.

Yes, around that time (I believe right after McCary was excommunicated) Brigham Young denied certain temple ordinances to Blacks. I always thought it was interesting how Brigham declared it really had nothing to do with what McCary had done which suggests to me that probably many members were having their own questions/concerns about it.