Prisonchaplain - My Personal Scripture Cannon

[Traveler]

For some time I have attempted to hint, imply, probe and learn in order to see if some ideas were being considered, understood or perhaps believed. There seem to be a little misunderstanding of certain ideas and doctrine to which I hold, so I thought I would attempt an explanation in order to establish where I am in my thinking and belief. To begin with I believe there are two natures of man. The spiritual and the physical that make up the soul of man. When a person’s physical body dies there is a spirit that lives on. This spirit I believe to have existed before the experience of a physical body began at conception and birth. This is why the spirit continues on after the physical has expired. Prior to our physical experience our spirits dwelt with the “Father” in heaven (Father of spirits) as his spiritual children. This means that we are spiritual entities having a physical experience rather than physical beings attempting to have a spiritual experience.

The physical earth and the physical heaven and all the things that in them are, as explained in Genesis, was created by G-d for the single purpose that his spirit children could have a physical experience. It was essential to G-d’s plan for the destiny of man that man have the physical experience. The second purpose for the spiritual experience was for his spiritual children to face a trial of good verses evil.

The wisdom of G-d realized that for the trial to be real that his spirit children must face the physical experience with a spiritual handicap. Instead of the complete assurance the spirit is capable of; a vale is drawn, hiding our spiritual knowledge, leaving only the faint spiritual ability of faith. With every person that is born there is one other spiritual gift from G-d. This is the spirit of Christ (also called the light of Christ) to allow every person to sense the difference between that which is good and that which is evil. Therefore the seed of spirituality is born with every man and every man has the ability to identify the light.

But this physical experience if full of sensation and if the spiritual light is not cultivated the spiritual powers will wither and become overcome by the physical. Through the entire physical life of man this spiritual light must be cultivated or it will be overcome. This is the spiritual truth taught in the parable of sewer. As man lives in this physical environment Satan also plants tares to overcome the spiritual seed. This spiritual light is the word and unless attended will be overcome by the world. To follow, trust and believe this spiritual light is to believe in Jesus Christ even though the physical words of Christ may never be experienced. Thus all men of all ages and places can be judged by G-d. This spirit of Christ is also how man worships G-d and connects to G-d in spirit. When Jesus talked of eyes that see and ears that hear, he spoke of the spiritual seed that had been allowed to grow in the mind and heart of that man that can see and hear.

Since man is a spiritual child of G-d attempting to have a physical experience the physical needs to be made subject to the spirit and not the spirit being made to be subject to the physical. Therefore, there is within the physical creation opportunity for the spirit and the physical to become united. Thus is the teaching, physical church and inspiration in the physical creations that can only be realized by the spiritual light within us.

I do not believe in subjecting the spiritual light to the physical creations of G-d but that the physical creations of G-d should be understood by the spiritual light in us. This is why I do not believe in any scripture as “The Cannon”. I do not believe a cannon exist in the physical sense. I believe the true cannon can only be written in our hearts. Only there is it possible that the word of G-d can be complete. I do not believe all of G-d’s words can be written physically. There is not enough Bible to even come close. There can only be room in our hearts for the great store of G-d’s words and teachings. When someone says the Bible has it all - I believe that they have lost spiritual connections and that they are refusing to worship G-d is spirit. Sorry if you do not agree - you are welcome to you understanding but I’m just not interested in that kind of stuff.

Hopefully I can give an example of a scripture from my personal spiritual cannon that expresses in physical words this doctrine, idea and concept of a the light within us. This scripture is not Biblical, it is not in what many call the LDS standard works. The words were not penned by any prophet or even by a member of the LDS faith - yet is contemporary to the early LDS members. It is the hymn “Lead Kindly Light”. This post is long enough - If you are interested in the physical words, you may Google the hymn title.

The Traveler

[Ray]

Heh, and this after I thought we had agreed on the idea that it’s okay to have “standards” of truth.

Traveler,

Are you aware of the fact that the “spirit of prophecy” can be described with only a few simple words?

And that a person can show they have received the spirit of prophecy by stating only a few simple words?

If so, then why do you have a problem with the idea that we might agree on more than a few simple words?

For instance, if I say that the Holy Bible is a standard of truth to me, would you really have a problem with that? I’m not saying that the Holy Bible is my ONLY standard of truth, just that it is A standard of truth, as PART of the collection of standard works… and notice, I’m saying standard “works”, with an “s”.

And btw, although all people who write scripture are fully aware of the fact that they write scripture, it takes some other people a very long time to “see” that what they have written is scripture.

[lisajo]

Just curiouse, what happened to the rest of this thread, i read it when it was first posted a few days back and just came back to it today and what PC wrote is gone? does anyone else know?

[Traveler]

Heh, and this after I thought we had agreed on the idea that it’s okay to have “standards” of truth.

Traveler,

Are you aware of the fact that the “spirit of prophecy” can be described with only a few simple words?

And that a person can show they have received the spirit of prophecy by stating only a few simple words?

If so, then why do you have a problem with the idea that we might agree on more than a few simple words?

For instance, if I say that the Holy Bible is a standard of truth to me, would you really have a problem with that? I’m not saying that the Holy Bible is my ONLY standard of truth, just that it is A standard of truth, as PART of the collection of standard works… and notice, I’m saying standard “works”, with an “s”.

And btw, although all people who write scripture are fully aware of the fact that they write scripture, it takes some other people a very long time to “see” that what they have written is scripture.

What I am attempting to do with physical words is to outline the basis (essence) of truth. I would agree that scriptures may help or can help but at the same time it is possible that scriptures will not help. In Luke chapter 4, Satan uses scripture to tempt Jesus. Thus I believe that scriptures can be used to confuse as well as a help. What then is the difference? Jesus said that those that have eyes to see will see. As LDS we know that it is possible to be influenced by one of two spirits. Thus two people in exactly the same place experiencing exactly the same thing can come to opposit conclusions. But two people in different places experiencing completly different things can come to the same conclusion - if they are influenced by the same spirit. What then is the standard?

The Traveler

[Ray]

If you’re trying to make the point that we can’t know the truth without receiving a personal witness from God, no matter which or how many writings we read or how many times we actually read them, then I will agree with you 100%, but I personally enjoy and benefit from reading writings from other people who have been personally inspired by God, hence I can see a lot of value in reading scriptures from other people… while I also personally enjoy and benefit from reading the same good things that other people see.

Or to put it another way, while gathering information from any source I see that may be beneficial to me in some way, although I can see the truth in what I read through the power of the Holy Ghost, I also enjoy and personally benefit from seeing other people who have seen and can see the same good things I see.

Heh, are you catching my “drift” here, Traveler?

It's not enough to see and enjoy all good things because I want other people to see and enjoy them with me. :)

And btw, I think all “standards” people uphold reflect the people who uphold them, as well as the standards those people uphold.

[Maureen]

Just curiouse, what happened to the rest of this thread, i read it when it was first posted a few days back and just came back to it today and what PC wrote is gone? does anyone else know?

That's interesting - now I'm curious too.

M.

[Ray]

lisajo,

I think you're mistaken in thinking that it was this thread, because this thread was started last night and not a few days ago.

Perhaps you're thinking of the "Bible Under Fire" thread, which covers some of this same subject?

[prisonchaplain]

lisajo,

I think you're mistaken in thinking that it was this thread, because this thread was started last night and not a few days ago.

Perhaps you're thinking of the "Bible Under Fire" thread, which covers some of this same subject?

I think Ray is right. I've further confused things by posting yet another new thread.

[prisonchaplain]

The spiritual and the physical that make up the soul of man. When a person’s physical body dies there is a spirit that lives on. This spirit I believe to have existed before the experience of a physical body began at conception and birth. This is why the spirit continues on after the physical has expired. Prior to our physical experience our spirits dwelt with the “Father” in heaven (Father of spirits) as his spiritual children. This means that we are spiritual entities having a physical experience rather than physical beings attempting to have a spiritual experience.

I'm aware of this teaching. You believe human souls not only are immortal, but have always existed. We are not merely God's creation, but we are actually his "literal" offspring. This teaching helped me understand why Mormons actually prefer theistic evolution to creation science models--an ancient earth fits your teachings much better.

The physical earth and the physical heaven and all the things that in them are, as explained in Genesis, was created by G-d for the single purpose that his spirit children could have a physical experience. It was essential to G-d’s plan for the destiny of man that man have the physical experience. The second purpose for the spiritual experience was for his spiritual children to face a trial of good verses evil.

I understand that Mormon theology portrays the Fall as an essential part of God's plan. I do not believe this. Yes, God had a plan for when we would fall, but Adam and Eve were free not too.

The wisdom of G-d realized that for the trial to be real that his spirit children must face the physical experience with a spiritual handicap. Instead of the complete assurance the spirit is capable of; a vale is drawn, hiding our spiritual knowledge, leaving only the faint spiritual ability of faith. With every person that is born there is one other spiritual gift from G-d. This is the spirit of Christ (also called the light of Christ) to allow every person to sense the difference between that which is good and that which is evil. Therefore the seed of spirituality is born with every man and every man has the ability to identify the light.

So, whereas I believe that I shall be glorified at the 2nd coming, Mormons believe they shall RETURN to their glorified state.

But this physical experience if full of sensation and if the spiritual light is not cultivated the spiritual powers will wither and become overcome by the physical. Through the entire physical life of man this spiritual light must be cultivated or it will be overcome. This is the spiritual truth taught in the parable of sewer. As man lives in this physical environment Satan also plants tares to overcome the spiritual seed. This spiritual light is the word and unless attended will be overcome by the world. To follow, trust and believe this spiritual light is to believe in Jesus Christ even though the physical words of Christ may never be experienced. Thus all men of all ages and places can be judged by G-d. This spirit of Christ is also how man worships G-d and connects to G-d in spirit. When Jesus talked of eyes that see and ears that hear, he spoke of the spiritual seed that had been allowed to grow in the mind and heart of that man that can see and hear.

Traditionally, this discussion has been framed as: Is God's general revelation enough to bring humanity to salvation, or must they experience a special revelation (through gospel presentation, drawing of the Holy Spirit, reception of the written word, or other such specific interactions)? Romans 1 lends me to believe that God will judge everyone according to what they have received, and what they have received is indeed enough for him to do the judging.

I do not believe in subjecting the spiritual light to the physical creations of G-d but that the physical creations of G-d should be understood by the spiritual light in us. This is why I do not believe in any scripture as “The Cannon”. I do not believe a cannon exist in the physical sense. I believe the true cannon can only be written in our hearts. Only there is it possible that the word of G-d can be complete. I do not believe all of G-d’s words can be written physically. There is not enough Bible to even come close. There can only be room in our hearts for the great store of G-d’s words and teachings. When someone says the Bible has it all - I believe that they have lost spiritual connections and that they are refusing to worship G-d is spirit. Sorry if you do not agree - you are welcome to you understanding but I’m just not interested in that kind of stuff.

Scripture, regardless of what makes it up, is God's written word to us. It is a spiritual writing, spiritually discerned. If, for a moment, you believe that Christians rely merely on the written word--that we would dare believe we can handle God's message, without his Spirit enlightening our understanding, you woefully misjudge us. The Spirit of God can change a life with a single verse, a single phrase. More people have turned towards God through John 3:16 than through the whole of Psalms, very likely. You see canon as a limitation, but I see it as a reassuring boundry. These I can rely on. These God will use.

Hopefully I can give an example of a scripture from my personal spiritual cannon that expresses in physical words this doctrine, idea and concept of a the light within us. This scripture is not Biblical, it is not in what many call the LDS standard works. The words were not penned by any prophet or even by a member of the LDS faith - yet is contemporary to the early LDS members. It is the hymn “Lead Kindly Light”. This post is long enough - If you are interested in the physical words, you may Google the hymn title.

Many believers have been inspired by hymns, songs, choruses, phrases. I've found incredible truth, peace, and strength in the simple verse, "Jesus wept." To know he feels my pain is most comforting! I'm not sure I'd call such canon, but I get what you mean, and it does resonate powerfully.

[Traveler]

There is more but at this point there is enough.

The Traveler