Gaining a testimony

[MarginOfError]

That's more or less making a big insurmountable mountain out of a little dinky molehill just so you can say somebody is wrong/stupid/ignorant when they say "I KNOW because I can PROVE it".

Whatever.

Even engineers don't get this anal.

Ah! But you don't deny it.

[Misshalfway]

I know that the church is true. I know that the book of Mormon is true. I know that Joseph Smith and Pres. Monson are the Lord's prophets. I know these things not because I read some things and decided to believe them. I know these things because I prayed and asked and received an answer. The answer was a still, small voice, one that I recognize, one that has never lied to me or led me astray, has only encourage me to do good, and led me closer to my Savior. I know because I have acted on these facts, and it has born good fruits. If I decided one day to say it's not true, I know that I would be lying.

I know these things better than I know what the couch I'm sitting on is made of...I know them better than I know most anything...

Do the missionaries know it? I don't know, but to assume I know what they think/feel would be arrogant on my part, so I just worry about me.

In another chapter of my life, I would have said something very similar. Now...as I look back on that person and how that person saw these things...I wonder at how I feel like I "know" so much more than I did then. But somehow I feel reluctant to use the same language.

Interesting.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Misshalfway

[jayanna]

I know it so much, that when I decided to join the church, I lost my friends, my husband threatened to kill me for it (and nearly did), I lost my job, my home, my parents disowned me...and all I had was a car full of baby clothes and two toddler girls. I would not have given up the only home my children had because of a nice idea, or a faint belief.

I was offered a lot of things if I would only say the church wasn't true. I could have it all back, if I only said a few little words... I Deny it.

Instead, I listened to that still small voice, who told me just what to do and where to go. I have a new home that is not built on sand. God sent the rain that came tumbling down, and washed that sand away, so I would go toward the rock. The rock is revelation, God builds his church on revelation, this is the rock that Peter had. This is the rock that I still need to lead my children through this whirlwind of the world.

Testimony isn't solely a hope, it isn't reasonable speculation, it is the rock that I use to make important life decisions, I would not risk my life, and my kids future on anything less.

Leave my home and go where the Lord asks? check

Life being threatened and stick with the church anyway? check

Look in my children's faces and not know what to tell them? check

Living forever with my eternal companion and being sealed to my kids? worth it. A decade later, I would do it all again. I know exactly why those pioneer saints carved in that rock "We thank the O God"

[spamlds]

Jesus also defined eternal life as to "know the only true God and Jesus Christ." When a person receives a witness by the Holy Ghost, which is often referred to as the "still, small, voice," he KNOWS that the gospel is true. This is the witness that comes from God, not man.

Thus, our missionaries go out and teach what they know by the Spirit. They don't need to be scriptorians. They don't need to be theologians. They don't need to have degrees or worldly knowledge. What they need is to be able to teach others how they obtained a witness of the Spirit. They invite others to try it for themselves.

If a person is sincere and seeking truth, they will respond favorably. If a person is not called to the election of grace at that particular moment in their lives, he or she won't respond to the invitation.

Over the two years of a mission, an elder or sister will significantly improve his knowledge of gospel doctrines and the Spirit will continue to educate him or her in that process. His testimony, faith, and knowledge will grow. However, the most important key to missionary work is having the Spirit. All the knowledge in the world won't convert anyone. The elect of God will feel the Spirit in the missionary and respond.

Don't dismiss what you know by the still, small voice. I know for a surety that Jesus is the Christ and that this Church is Christ's own. I know that Joseph was a prophet. That testimony has deepened over the past 30 years as it has been tested, but I knew from the moment I received the Spirit's witness that it was true. If I can know it, so can everyone else that seeks truth.

I think you are a 100% right here, I strongly believe, but in order to 'know', Christ would have had to visit me in person and even then I could have been delusional or dreaming.

To me its sad that such an emphasis has been placed on 'knowing' as I believe it leaves a 'bad taste' in some investigators mouths -- and some members too, it did in mine for a long time until I took the same attitude you did towards what they 'really meant'.

There is nothing wrong with believing according to Jesus:

John 20: 29

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[Faded]

I know it so much, that when I decided to join the church, I lost my friends, my husband threatened to kill me for it (and nearly did), I lost my job, my home, my parents disowned me...and all I had was a car full of baby clothes and two toddler girls. I would not have given up the only home my children had because of a nice idea, or a faint belief.

I was offered a lot of things if I would only say the church wasn't true. I could have it all back, if I only said a few little words... I Deny it.

Instead, I listened to that still small voice, who told me just what to do and where to go. I have a new home that is not built on sand. God sent the rain that came tumbling down, and washed that sand away, so I would go toward the rock. The rock is revelation, God builds his church on revelation, this is the rock that Peter had. This is the rock that I still need to lead my children through this whirlwind of the world.

Testimony isn't solely a hope, it isn't reasonable speculation, it is the rock that I use to make important life decisions, I would not risk my life, and my kids future on anything less.

Leave my home and go where the Lord asks? check

Life being threatened and stick with the church anyway? check

Look in my children's faces and not know what to tell them? check

Living forever with my eternal companion and being sealed to my kids? worth it. A decade later, I would do it all again. I know exactly why those pioneer saints carved in that rock "We thank the O God"

It's always so neat to hear these stories of extraordinary faith. As I come from many generations in the Church on all forks of my family tree, I will never get to experience the Church in the same way that you and every other convert has. You get to discover it after years of going without it, so your appreciation for what you have found is going to tend to be much greater than mine. And you get to have the "night to day difference" type of discovery that I'll never experience.

Some converts say they wish they had lived in the Church all their lives because that way they'd understand everything better. But they are so blessed by having that powerful awakening experience coming into the Church of Jesus Christ and knowing what it is like to live without it. I'm a little envious of you and other converts in that sense.

I do not envy the wrongs that were done to you, but I greatly admire the faith you demonstrated in enduring such extreme trials. Is the current "eternal companion" the same guy that "threatened to kill me for it (and nearly did)" or did you divorce and remarry at some point?

[jayanna]

I had to get divorced, and remarried later. He was a nonmember, a Baptist, and when we got engaged decided to go to his church one Sunday and mine the next.

We never did go to his church :) Don't get me wrong, I was perfectly accepting of this decision, he just decided to get to know more, and that was it.

We are sealed now, and he is doing so great, and my oldest is now in seminary this year. She was really mad when she was little, at the missionaries. She first heard from the Holy Ghost when we gave her her first set of scriptures before she was baptized.

Her sis. is 12 now, and hasn't gotten that yet. I'm sure she will someday, though.

[Justice]

I love Alma's words on this topic:

Alma 5:

45 And this is not all. Do ye not suppose that I know of these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety?

46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.

[Mute]

Most of the LDS missionaries I've ever spoken to have put great stress on the assumption that they know it's all true. They know Joseph Smith was a prophet. They know Pres. Benson (I'm talking 20 years ago here) was a prophet. They know that the Church is the true church of Jesus Christ. They were bearing witness that these things were true.

But elsewhere I read that one reason young men and women go on missions is to gain a testimony. So the burning question is this: If they don't have a testimony when they start their mission, exactly what are they bearing witness to? Do they let their partners do the talking until whatever point in their 2 years the testimony actually arrives? Or do they (Heaven forbid!) lie and fake it?

(I daresay I'm oversimplifying things here, and I hope no one thinks I'm being insulting. I've a lot of respect for these young people who spend 2 years of their lives to having doors shoved in their faces for little or no earthly reward, to help others to find happiness. I often tell my wife that if the elders/sisters ever come to our door these days, I would like to invite them to have dinner with us. And I'd make sure it was a nice dinner and I wouldn't pester them with questions like the one above during it!)

I would never tell someone they didn't know their faith was true but I've never met a person that I believed honestly did know their faith was true. I suppose if I did believe anyone knew it, I wouldn't be agnostic. I'm not even sure I've met a person ever who I felt honestly believed that they knew their own faith was true even though they said it. I know many who strongly believe in their faith though.

[EandLDOW]

Let's see. God is a god of truth, cannot lie, He loves his children, will not lead them astray, He's perfect in every way, and is unchanging.

The Godhead included Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. All are "God", perfectly united in their love, knowledge, power, motivation, purposes.

God, in this case the Holy Ghost, has told me clearly that the Church is true, that Jesus Christ is our Savior, that Joseph smith is the Prophet of God through whom Jesus Christ restored His gospel, His Church and His Priesthood, and brought forth the Book of Mormon for our benefit, and that Thomas S. Monson is God's Prophet living on the Earth today.

So, since God told me these things, then yes, I do "know" them as true fact, incontrovertable, beyond any doubt or question.

[Jamie123]

Let's see. God is a god of truth, cannot lie, He loves his children, will not lead them astray, He's perfect in every way, and is unchanging.

The Godhead included Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. All are "God", perfectly united in their love, knowledge, power, motivation, purposes.

God, in this case the Holy Ghost, has told me clearly that the Church is true, that Jesus Christ is our Savior, that Joseph smith is the Prophet of God through whom Jesus Christ restored His gospel, His Church and His Priesthood, and brought forth the Book of Mormon for our benefit, and that Thomas S. Monson is God's Prophet living on the Earth today.

So, since God told me these things, then yes, I do "know" them as true fact, incontrovertable, beyond any doubt or question.

There was a time when I'd have responded something like this: Even granted that God exists and that everything you say about Him is correct, how do you know it was the actual Holy Ghost who told you these things, and not some other entity - or even your own imagination?

However, this is an idle question to ask anyone who's built their life around the Mormon concept of "testimony" (whatever this actually means). To their minds it's true, and no amount of argument will get them to admit the possibility that they are deceived.

For me there's a comforting peace from putting my trust in God - from knowing that though I am a sinner He hasn't given up on me. I wouldn't call that "...true fact, incontrovertable, beyond any doubt or question". I have to admit that I could theoretically be wrong, but I do know from experience that Christianity works for me.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Jamie123

[EandLDOW]

Jamie123, actually I have not "built my life around" the gospel. I was nearly 30 when I was baptised and became a member, and it was a couple of years after that when I found out and "knew", before that I had "believed".

Glad you know you're a sinner, we all are. And more glad you know that God hasn't, and won't, give up on you. He loves you. why doubt?

As for how I know, and know I'm not decieved, it's like explaining what salt tastes like. I know it was the Holy Ghost for a certainty, just can only say when you know, you'll know, and you'll know you know.

[Dravin]

There was a time when I'd have responded something like this: Even granted that God exists and that everything you say about Him is correct, how do you know it was the actual Holy Ghost who told you these things, and not some other entity - or even your own imagination?

However, this is an idle question to ask anyone who's built their life around the Mormon concept of "testimony" (whatever this actually means). To their minds it's true, and no amount of argument will get them to admit the possibility that they are deceived.

Honestly in my experience you hit the same sort of wall when you ask mainstream Christians why they believe the Bible to be the word of God. It boils down to faith or belief. What I found strange was a reluctance for some Christians I talked to to recognize/admit that.

You know the interesting thing is it is possible that my revelation wasn't true, or that it was misguided. The problem is that believing or being convinced of such has a domino effect.

1. I was misguided about the revelation I received concerning the Book of Mormon.

2. Revelation is not a reliable source.

3. How do I know the Bible is true then?

4. How do I know that Jesus is the Christ then?

5. How do I know God is real then?

I realize that such a process is probably an outgrowth of certain thinking I've accepted and been taught as LDS, but it is interesting. Some Christians try to convince me revelation isn't a reliable source in an effort to save me, I wonder if they realize if they truly succeed they aren't leading me to mainstream Christianity but Atheism or Agnosticism.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Dravin

[Wingnut]

There was a time when I'd have responded something like this: Even granted that God exists and that everything you say about Him is correct, how do you know it was the actual Holy Ghost who told you these things, and not some other entity - or even your own imagination?

However, this is an idle question to ask anyone who's built their life around the Mormon concept of "testimony" (whatever this actually means). To their minds it's true, and no amount of argument will get them to admit the possibility that they are deceived.

I think you'd be surprised at how many born-and-raised-in-the-LDS-Church people there are that ask the very question you pose in your first paragraph.