Mainstream Christianity and Mormonism

[curtishouse]

This thread is not meant to bash or berate mainstream Christianity; this is only my personal experience.

I used to belong to different mainstream Christian sects such as the church of Christ, a Bible church (which is affiliated with the Baptist churches), the RC church, some non-denominational churches and others but, it seemed, there was something in common with each of them. If you didn't believe exactly what they taught regarding salvation, you were destined for their concept of Hell. If you believed in faith alone for salvation, the church of Christ thought you were going to Hell, if you believed that works were essential for salvation along with faith, the Bible church thought you were going to Hell, and on, and on.

These conflicting opinions (and they all had biblical scripture to support their views) pretty much just drove me crazy and drove me away from Christ altogether. How could there be so many differing thoughts based on Scripture when God is the Author of Peace and not confusion?

I was so confused that eventually I just gave up on God altogether and believed that one didn't exist.

I still had hope deep inside but mainstream Christianity hurt me so bad that I just could never go back to any of those churches ever again.

Along the way, I was talking to some on here last year and one wonderful person sent me the Book of Mormon as well as some pamphlets. I read some of it but I just don't think I was ready at that time.

I eventually got immersed deeply in Atheism once again and I couldn't fathom Heavenly Father existing and, even if He did, I just couldn't envision myself worshiping this God that the churches have taught me about.

Sending a person to Hell for all eternity in torment and pain because they were taught a different faith growing up in a different land? The trinity? The Bible is all we have to go on for learning about Him even though it can be construed a million different ways? A literal 6,000 year old earth when all evidence points to roughly a 4.5 billion year old time period?

I don't know how it happened but I was looking into Mormonism again and even uploaded a PBS special called "The Mormons" on my YouTube channel and I felt the need to read the BofM.

To be honest, at first, I was reading it sarcastically through the first chapter because I thought it would just be utter bunk but, after I read the first chapter and had the night to think about it, I couldn't shake the feeling that this truly was the Word of God. It reminded me of how I used to feel when I read the Bible before those dissenting viewpoints on doctrine destroyed my faith.

The more I read it now (and I've been reading at least a chapter every day) I KNOW unequivocally that it is the Word of God and haven't felt this peace with God in quite a while now.

I know I don't understand all the doctrines in the LDS faith and, right now, I just don't care. I know this is the Word of God and I just love feeling this way! It's like being in love all over again and everything just makes more sense. Life is good and, most importantly, I can say this and mean it for the first time in a long time...GOD IS GOOD!

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I am glad you have learned for yourself that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. May your journey from there be enlightened by the Holy Spirit of God.

[Faded]

Awesome, awesome thing to hear about curtishouse!! It takes me back to my own first time through the Book of Mormon (the first time I really understood it) in Junior High School. I couldn't stop reading it and it was just so very powerful! Was through it in four weeks, Isaiah chapters and all.

Congratulations on your witness. It's a beautiful thing!

[prisonchaplain]

This thread is not meant to bash or berate mainstream Christianity; this is only my personal experience.

I used to belong to different mainstream Christian sects such as the church of Christ, a Bible church (which is affiliated with the Baptist churches), the RC church, some non-denominational churches and others but, it seemed, there was something in common with each of them. If you didn't believe exactly what they taught regarding salvation, you were destined for their concept of Hell. If you believed in faith alone for salvation, the church of Christ thought you were going to Hell, if you believed that works were essential for salvation along with faith, the Bible church thought you were going to Hell, and on, and on.

These conflicting opinions (and they all had biblical scripture to support their views) pretty much just drove me crazy and drove me away from Christ altogether. How could there be so many differing thoughts based on Scripture when God is the Author of Peace and not confusion?

I was so confused that eventually I just gave up on God altogether and believed that one didn't exist.

Ironically, from my day at Temple Square, from the movie I watched at the theater there, from the pamphlet I was given, and from my own overview reading of the BoM, I found that Joseph Smith went through the same thing struggle you did. He seemed scandalized by the divisions and animosities between the denominations. His father held similar views, and did not attend church regularly. I am supposing that a common theme amongst adult converts is that they found the various conflicting doctrines of Protestantism (even within evangelicalism) to be greatly disturbing.

Sending a person to Hell for all eternity in torment and pain because they were taught a different faith growing up in a different land? The trinity? The Bible is all we have to go on for learning about Him even though it can be construed a million different ways? A literal 6,000 year old earth when all evidence points to roughly a 4.5 billion year old time period?

Charles Taze Russell was disturbed greatly by the doctrine of hell. Allegedly he prayed telling God he would read the scriptures do disprove the teaching, or he would stop believing. Of course today the movement he founded is the 6-million strong Jehovah's Witnesses.

Thank you for sharing your conversion story. I always found it useful to see how my fellow Protestants find their way into the LDS faith. If nothing else, it helps me understand how many of those in my own services may be conflicted, and how some of our glib answers may be failing.

[Faded]

I don't know if every convert to the Church has the same experience PC. Everyone's experience is vastly different, though there is frequently something that led the person to feel disillusioned about the faith they started out in. This is understandable of course, since we are most open to prompting when we're searching for God and have set aside our preconceived notions. But it absolutely is not the same story in every case. Every story is just a little bit different.

The vast majority read the Book of Mormon with and open mind and pray about it. That is the biggest commonality of conversion.

[Faded]

Charles Taze Russell was disturbed greatly by the doctrine of hell. Allegedly he prayed telling God he would read the scriptures do disprove the teaching, or he would stop believing. Of course today the movement he founded is the 6-million strong Jehovah's Witnesses.

I wonder if this is why Russell and his followers came to reject the existence of the human spirit and concluded that the unbeliever (non-Jehovah's Witness in their currently thinking) simply ceases to be when they die -- at least that's my understanding of what they believe. You might have a better way of explaining it.

[prisonchaplain]

Faded, I suggested a common theme amongst converts, not identical stories. Of course, every person is an individual, and each has his or her own story to tell. BTW, you are right about the Witnesses, from what I know.

[Traveler]

Curtishouse: I believe that the discovery of enlightenment is a journey and not a destination. Welcome to the beginning of your journey.

The Traveler

[jayanna]

My hubby was raised a Baptist. After we got engaged, he came to church with me and loved it. He said that one of the most important things to him about attending Sunday service with me was not once hearing the word hell, or about someone else who is going there. We aren't trying to be good because we are afraid of hell, but because we love Christ and want to show him. Also, we love each other.

What he said that really got him was that everything that was taught was about how to be more like Christ. He heard plans to help people, scripture stories, and how to be a better husband.

The gospel is good news :)

Edited October 4, 2010 by jayanna

[Mute]

This thread is not meant to bash or berate mainstream Christianity; this is only my personal experience.

I used to belong to different mainstream Christian sects such as the church of Christ, a Bible church (which is affiliated with the Baptist churches), the RC church, some non-denominational churches and others but, it seemed, there was something in common with each of them. If you didn't believe exactly what they taught regarding salvation, you were destined for their concept of Hell. If you believed in faith alone for salvation, the church of Christ thought you were going to Hell, if you believed that works were essential for salvation along with faith, the Bible church thought you were going to Hell, and on, and on.

These conflicting opinions (and they all had biblical scripture to support their views) pretty much just drove me crazy and drove me away from Christ altogether. How could there be so many differing thoughts based on Scripture when God is the Author of Peace and not confusion?

I was so confused that eventually I just gave up on God altogether and believed that one didn't exist.

I still had hope deep inside but mainstream Christianity hurt me so bad that I just could never go back to any of those churches ever again.

Along the way, I was talking to some on here last year and one wonderful person sent me the Book of Mormon as well as some pamphlets. I read some of it but I just don't think I was ready at that time.

I eventually got immersed deeply in Atheism once again and I couldn't fathom Heavenly Father existing and, even if He did, I just couldn't envision myself worshiping this God that the churches have taught me about.

Sending a person to Hell for all eternity in torment and pain because they were taught a different faith growing up in a different land? The trinity? The Bible is all we have to go on for learning about Him even though it can be construed a million different ways? A literal 6,000 year old earth when all evidence points to roughly a 4.5 billion year old time period?

I've never seen a Christian or Muslim faith who didn't believe one was not going to Heaven unless they believed as they did. I've seen some individuals of faiths say they didn't believe all children were going to hell and that it was up to God but was about it. If you're an atheists, agnostic or differing faith, everyone thinks you're screwed unless you come to their way of thinking. The funny part is the majority of Christian faiths consider everyone but LDS and Jehovah Witnesses as Christian more or less but apparently not Christian enough to go to heaven if they don't see things according to their own differing opinions.

[prisonchaplain]

I've never seen a Christian or Muslim faith who didn't believe one was not going to Heaven unless they believed as they did. I've seen some individuals of faiths say they didn't believe all children were going to hell and that it was up to God but was about it. If you're an atheists, agnostic or differing faith, everyone thinks you're screwed unless you come to their way of thinking. The funny part is the majority of Christian faiths consider everyone but LDS and Jehovah Witnesses as Christian more or less but apparently not Christian enough to go to heaven if they don't see things according to their own differing opinions.

This is a rather broad overstatement that places emphasis in the wrong place, and misses all nuance. PC does not believe that unless you believe as PC does, or even as his church does, that you are damned to hell. It really has little to do with me. Rather, I'm stuck with Jesus' statement saying He's the only way to the Father (God). By implying that it's PC's way (or Church X's way), you get to paint them as narrow-minded, judgmental, etc. On the other hand, if the Son of God really did come, and if he, as the Creator's Son, says we've got to come to him to be saved, then who are we, as his creation, to differ???

It may be more fair to say that most religions are rather ambivalent in this area. Muslims consider Christians and Jews to be "people of the book." Most Christians, including Catholics, look to the broad faith as brothers and sisters, not merely the immediate denomination. And, of course, LDS believe most of us will receive some measure of heavenly glory.

It was not so many years ago that if I said, "I am right," that I was merely expected to defend my proposition. Today I am immediately accused of declaring everyone else wrong, and must defend against charges of being mean, narrow and arrogant. But...what if I am right???

[ADoyle90815]

I've never seen a Christian or Muslim faith who didn't believe one was not going to Heaven unless they believed as they did. I've seen some individuals of faiths say they didn't believe all children were going to hell and that it was up to God but was about it. If you're an atheists, agnostic or differing faith, everyone thinks you're screwed unless you come to their way of thinking. The funny part is the majority of Christian faiths consider everyone but LDS and Jehovah Witnesses as Christian more or less but apparently not Christian enough to go to heaven if they don't see things according to their own differing opinions.

That's not the case at all, most Christian churches also view the LDS as a Christian church, and even accept a LDS baptism as being valid. The exception to that is the Catholic church, as they consider their baptism as the only valid one, so all converts have to be baptized, just as when someone joins the LDS church.

[Therauh]

I wonder if this is why Russell and his followers came to reject the existence of the human spirit and concluded that the unbeliever (non-Jehovah's Witness in their currently thinking) simply ceases to be when they die -- at least that's my understanding of what they believe. You might have a better way of explaining it.

Back when I studied with the Witnesses they used Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Matthew 22:32 to explain it.However they do believe in the resurection.Those who believed while alive are raised up first and those who did not are raised up after the millenium or on judgement day.

[curtishouse]

That's not the case at all, most Christian churches also view the LDS as a Christian church, and even accept a LDS baptism as being valid. The exception to that is the Catholic church, as they consider their baptism as the only valid one, so all converts have to be baptized, just as when someone joins the LDS church.

Actually the Catholic church accepts baptisms as long as its "In the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost." All you have to do is show proof of the baptism (usually through a certificate from your previous church) and they consider it valid.

I've never heard of a Christian church that believes that members of the LDS church are "truly Christian." It always comes down to the fact in our differences regarding the Trinity. If you have heard of a church that feels that way, I would love to hear what denomination you are referring to.

[Therauh]

Most of what I've been asked or told by those who hear I've been talking to Mormon's is either they don't believe in Christ or do they believe in Christ.I usually set them straight on that.I think much of that confusion is how much emphasis is put on Joseph Smith.Which at times makes it seem like some have put him on a pedestal higher than Christ.

[Mute]

This is a rather broad overstatement that places emphasis in the wrong place, and misses all nuance. PC does not believe that unless you believe as PC does, or even as his church does, that you are damned to hell. It really has little to do with me. Rather, I'm stuck with Jesus' statement saying He's the only way to the Father (God).

So you're saying you and the church you belong to believes that an atheist could go to Heaven even if they never believe in God, Christianity or your particular Christian denomination all their life or a here after? If you believe that, then I glad and wish all faiths believed similar ways. I'm not honestly sure though how you could have a religion and believe that though. What point would there be for a religion if your beliefs were not needed in order to go to Heaven? I mean if someone could still go to Heaven and never believe as you, why be religious? How would you persuade someone to go to your faith?

Most faiths only believe in a Heaven and a Hell. If they don't believe a person can go to Heaven unless they believe as their faith does, that only leaves one option. LDS believe in multiple degrees of glory but they still believe that others have to be baptized in the lds faith in order to go to the Celestial Kingdom. I'm not trying to say what someone should or shouldn't believe. That is up to them to decide.

I try to focus on what a person is like rather than what their religious beliefs are. I don't know if their is a Heaven or Hell. So it's not my goal to persuade someone one way or the other. But I'd be lying if I said it didn't trouble me when people spend time telling others they're going to Hell when they die because they don't believe the same as another person. If a person is a good person, that is all that honestly matters to me. My point is, I've never met a faith that believed being a good person was enough. You could be the best person in the world but if you don't believe a certain way, no faith that I've seen believes you will go to a paradise when you die.

By implying that it's PC's way (or Church X's way), you get to paint them as narrow-minded, judgmental, etc. On the other hand, if the Son of God really did come, and if he, as the Creator's Son, says we've got to come to him to be saved, then who are we, as his creation, to differ???

I was not trying to imply they are judgmental. I was trying to point out that I have never seen a faith which believes people can honestly go to Heaven unless they believe as they do. This would include differences in belief regarding the passages in the Bible or even God for that matter. Many Christian faiths don't believe LDS or Jehovah Witnesses are going to Heaven simply because they don't agree on the nature of God's physical appearances as well as other differences. The original poster even named some of the differences faiths have in his original post. Faith and works is a big one. If they believed LDS could go to Heaven even though they don't believe as they do, they wouldn't say they're going to Hell. There wouldn't be protesters outside LDS or Jehovah Witnesses places of worship. LDS and Jehovah Witnesses are just two examples though. Many faiths argue with one another and they don't believe the other are going to Heaven. Now some individuals of faiths do believe others can go to Heaven but I have never met a faith as a whole which believed this or taught this.

It may be more fair to say that most religions are rather ambivalent in this area. Muslims consider Christians and Jews to be "people of the book." Most Christians, including Catholics, look to the broad faith as brothers and sisters, not merely the immediate denomination. And, of course, LDS believe most of us will receive some measure of heavenly glory.

It was not so many years ago that if I said, "I am right," that I was merely expected to defend my proposition. Today I am immediately accused of declaring everyone else wrong, and must defend against charges of being mean, narrow and arrogant. But...what if I am right???

I'm not trying to debate which religion or faith is right. I'm agnostic. I don't try to persuade someone one way or the other because I simply don't know.

[Dravin]

I mean if someone could still go to Heaven and never believe as you, why be religious? How would you persuade someone to go to your faith?

That presupposes the only benefits to be experienced by faith are those in the here after. It does remove some omph, but I've yet to meet someone who is religious who feels the only benefit of their faith is in the here after. Also you overlook that some people simply want to believe what they feel is true. Athiests certainly don't believe (no, I'm not calling them a faith) that believing as they do provides a benefit after they die but instead see an intrinsic value in believing what they consider to be true (to the point that some engage in 'missionary' work).

[Avrham]

Hi Kurtis

My daughter(10yrs)had a interesting take on Christanity and mormonism she believes"that their are only christians and everyone else" she hates the term mormon (she was baptised lds) she believes in her own words "She is following Christ Only and no one else" which kinda sounds pretty mainstream to some, she was asked about following the leaders and President/Prophet she just smiled and said " As long as they are following Jesus as well they will be fine"

kinda made me and my wife laugh at the time but I get what she meant:):):):):):)

[prisonchaplain]

So you're saying you and the church you belong to believes that an atheist could go to Heaven even if they never believe in God,

No.

I'm saying that it's not me or my ideas you have to believe. It's not my church you have to answer to. Jesus says he is the only way to God. It's the Son of God who we see as making the claim. My job, my church's job, the Christian movement's job--is to repeat Jesus' claim. What I'm arguing against is your seeming implication that when a Christian or a church, or really a religion makes an absolute claim, it is primarily feeding it's own ego and opinion, and demaning lock-step agreement with the institution.

I mean if someone could still go to Heaven and never believe as you, why be religious? How would you persuade someone to go to your faith?

This is a bit better. But again, it's not about getting people to believe like me. The claim of Jesus is that he is the only way to the Father. It's his claim, and we embrace it. I am chaffing at the implied insinuation that Christians are arrogantly trying to get people to believe exactly as they do, to fulfill some egoistic drive to be right. We do make a truth claim, but the focus is on the message, not the messengers.

I try to focus on what a person is like rather than what their religious beliefs are.

Most people are good most of the time. A few are mostly bad, and a few are almost completely good. So, to the extent that you promote good behavior, bravo.

But, if there is a God who cares what we think, and how we interact with him, then we do well to encourage our fellows to enter into that proper relationship. No?

But I'd be lying if I said it didn't trouble me when people spend time telling others they're going to Hell when they die because they don't believe the same as another person. If a person is a good person, that is all that honestly matters to me.

But what if there is a Creator God, who has rightful claim to our allegiance? If I believe I know this God, and I am capable of introducing others to him, shouldn't I do so? And if it really is the worst kind of rebellion to refuse acknowledging the one who made us, then should I not warn those who persist in doing so?

My point is, I've never met a faith that believed being a good person was enough. You could be the best person in the world but if you don't believe a certain way, no faith that I've seen believes you will go to a paradise when you die.

You might check out the Unitarian Universalists...but I think they are wrong. If there is a Creator God, he likely has the right to expect our allegiance.

I was not trying to imply they are judgmental. I was trying to point out that I have never seen a faith which believes people can honestly go to Heaven unless they believe as they do. This would include differences in belief regarding the passages in the Bible or even God for that matter.

No matter how you slice it, it sounds like an accusation. "YOU demand that I believe as YOU do." Well, I demand nothing, I simply recite what I believe God has said.

Many Christian faiths don't believe LDS or Jehovah Witnesses are going to Heaven simply because they don't agree on the nature of God's physical appearances as well as other differences.

Again, if there is a Creator God, and He has chosen to expect allegiance from his Creator, he would want that allegiance to be based on truth, not a distortion of who he is. Some Christians are quite certain where the line between innocent error and damnable falseness is. Others would leave it to God. However, it's not unreasonable to believe that the God who chastised Cain for offering an unacceptable sacrifice, would likewise not accept a heavily erroneous system of worship to something quite foreign to what he actually is.

I'm not trying to debate which religion or faith is right. I'm agnostic. I don't try to persuade someone one way or the other because I simply don't know.

I'm reacting to an implication I see to the whole "You say I must believe YOUR religion..." line. Whether you mean to or not, such an approach puts me (us) on the defense--as if I've commited an offense by making a truth claim.

You say you don't know about God or his existence, yet you seem fairly certain that none of the religions of the world can make exclusive truth claims. Why is that?

Edited October 5, 2010 by prisonchaplain

[brittrossiter]

** snip **

What point would there be for a religion if your beliefs were not needed in order to go to Heaven? I mean if someone could still go to Heaven and never believe as you, why be religious? How would you persuade someone to go to your faith?

** snip **

My most recent experience with mainstream Christianity is with the Eastern Orthodox. They would probably answer this question by analogizing the (Orthodox) Church to a map that can help guide you along a narrow path through a treacherous forest to safety (i.e., salvation) on the other side. The map may not be easy to follow and may involve fording dangerous rivers, crossing perilous ledges, but it will get you to safety if you stay along the narrow path. You can try to navigate the forest on your own (by acting righteously without any guidance from the Church), and you might very well get to safety that way, but it's far easier to stay on the correct path and avoid dangers by following the map.

It's not a perfect analogy, of course.

To my knowledge the Orthodox do not teach that one must be Orthodox to reach Heaven.

[Mute]

No.

I'm saying that it's not me or my ideas you have to believe. It's not my church you have to answer to. Jesus says he is the only way to God. It's the Son of God who we see as making the claim. My job, my church's job, the Christian movement's job--is to repeat Jesus' claim. What I'm arguing against is your seeming implication that when a Christian or a church, or really a religion makes an absolute claim, it is primarily feeding it's own ego and opinion, and demaning lock-step agreement with the institution.

It is demanding "lock-step agreement" on many of the beliefs. If you were to say in some churches that you believed works mattered or you didn't agree in the trinity, you would not go to Heaven according to that faith. There is no room for flexibility or partial agreement on many of the beliefs. It's either you believe that way or you don't and if you don't many of them won't even acknowledge you as a Christian at all. None believe you will go to a Heaven when you die. This is not just Christianity that does this.

I don't care what someone believes personally. I may not agree with everything religious taught to children but what an adult believes doesn't bother me. They could believe everyone but them self is going to Hell. That's not what bothers me. It does bother me when people spend so much time and energy telling others they're going to Hell for not believing a particular way. If a Muslim believes all infidels should die, that doesn't mean they should start saying it. If a person believes a lady is really fat, that doesn't mean they should start saying it. If you believe a God says that all non believers will go to hell, that doesn't mean you should go say it. I don't remember reading in the Bible where it is written that all followers need to stand on a street corner with signs saying "Ask me why you deserve hell".

To be honest, I wasn't even trying to imply anything in my original post. All I said was all religions believe you must believe as they do or you will not go to Heaven, which means you would go to Hell. I also said that I found it funny that they consider all but LDS and Jehovah Witnesses as Christians but not Christian enough to go to Heaven because of their differing beliefs. I wasn't implying it was good or bad for them to believe this way. I was just stating that they do.

This is a bit better. But again, it's not about getting people to believe like me. The claim of Jesus is that he is the only way to the Father. It's his claim, and we embrace it. I am chaffing at the implied insinuation that Christians are arrogantly trying to get people to believe exactly as they do, to fulfill some egoistic drive to be right. We do make a truth claim, but the focus is on the message, not the messengers.

You're arguing against something I never even said. I never said what your reasons were at all. I didn't say why you did it. But your reasons are not any different than any other religion.

But what if there is a Creator God, who has rightful claim to our allegiance? If I believe I know this God, and I am capable of introducing others to him, shouldn't I do so? And if it really is the worst kind of rebellion to refuse acknowledging the one who made us, then should I not warn those who persist in doing so?

It's in how you do it. If you believe in something good, then there is nothing wrong with sharing it. There are people that go out and teach what they believe like the missionaries do. Then there are people who focus purely on why you're going to hell or what your "sins" are.

It's one thing to tell people about exercise and why you feel great from it. It makes you feel better and you're happier because of it. This is what missionaries do. It's another thing to purely focus on how fat, unhealthy and ugly you think they are. This is exactly what many Christian faiths do to Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, atheists, agnostics and those who don't believe as they do. Just imagine someone standing outside a restraunt with a sign saying "YOU'RE FAT" and screaming NO ONE LOVES YOU! and claiming they're doing it because they "love" you. This is not so very different than what people do to lds at general conference or what street preachers do to atheists and agnostics. I am very against this and I have no respect for religions that do this. I am not tolerant of it.

No matter how you slice it, it sounds like an accusation. "YOU demand that I believe as YOU do." Well, I demand nothing, I simply recite what I believe God has said.

It's an observation, not an accusation.

Again, if there is a Creator God, and He has chosen to expect allegiance from his Creator, he would want that allegiance to be based on truth, not a distortion of who he is. Some Christians are quite certain where the line between innocent error and damnable falseness is. Others would leave it to God. However, it's not unreasonable to believe that the God who chastised Cain for offering an unacceptable sacrifice, would likewise not accept a heavily erroneous system of worship to something quite foreign to what he actually is.

You just made the entire point. Because they believe differently than your interpretation, you think that's reasonable to think they're not going to heaven for that. You just validated and proved all my points. What's the difference between that and any other differing belief for thinking people won't go to heaven? Why are you even arguing with me? This is exactly what I've been saying. You believe that because someone believes differently than what you believe to be the correct way, that that is justification for God to damn them. That is what I've been saying this entire time.

I'm reacting to an implication I see to the whole "You say I must believe YOUR religion..." line. Whether you mean to or not, such an approach puts me (us) on the defense--as if I've commited an offense by making a truth claim.

You say you don't know about God or his existence, yet you seem fairly certain that none of the religions of the world can make exclusive truth claims. Why is that?

I never said they couldn't do it. Obviously they can because they do. Your position is not any different than anyone else in any other religion. They all believe they are right. People need to recognize that not everyone begins with the same assumptions of truth and there needs to be some respect there.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Mute

[curtishouse]

My most recent experience with mainstream Christianity is with the Eastern Orthodox. They would probably answer this question by analogizing the (Orthodox) Church to a map that can help guide you along a narrow path through a treacherous forest to safety (i.e., salvation) on the other side. The map may not be easy to follow and may involve fording dangerous rivers, crossing perilous ledges, but it will get you to safety if you stay along the narrow path. You can try to navigate the forest on your own (by acting righteously without any guidance from the Church), and you might very well get to safety that way, but it's far easier to stay on the correct path and avoid dangers by following the map.

It's not a perfect analogy, of course.

To my knowledge the Orthodox do not teach that one must be Orthodox to reach Heaven.

It isn't in so much that you must be a certain sect to be saved. It all comes down to your doctrine. Some say that there are those saved in denominations they do not agree with but, the only way that is possible is if they disagree with the doctrines of their current church and align themselves in thought with the denomination that feels all practicing members of that faith are going to Hell.

For example let's say somebody attends a church of Christ but they do not agree that works (on top of faith) are necessary for salvation. They only believe that faith alone saves. From a baptist point of view, that person would be saved (and thus be a TRUE Christian in their eyes) in the midst of all those others who are "destined for Hell" unless they changed their viewpoint to that of Baptist beliefs as well.

[jayanna]

Hi Kurtis

My daughter(10yrs)had a interesting take on Christanity and mormonism she believes"that their are only christians and everyone else" she hates the term mormon (she was baptised lds) she believes in her own words "She is following Christ Only and no one else" which kinda sounds pretty mainstream to some, she was asked about following the leaders and President/Prophet she just smiled and said " As long as they are following Jesus as well they will be fine"

kinda made me and my wife laugh at the time but I get what she meant:):):):):):)

You know, I kinda feel the same way. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, not the church of mormon, don't get me wrong Mormon is great, but I wasn't baptized in his name, I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

When someone asks if I'm a Mormon, I kinda wanna say no, because I am not trying to be like Mormon, I'm trying to be like Jesus. I actually say, "Well, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, if that is what you mean."

I'm not really worried about who's going to hell. I think that everyone are sons and daughters of a Heavenly Father, but they just don't know it yet. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ...at some point everyone will know and acknowledge Him...I just want to be able to look back at my life and know that I loved people the way Jesus does.

[prisonchaplain]

Mute, perhaps you are not arguing so strongly against religions making truth claims. And, obviously, if I say, "Believe Jesus!" since I do also, I am asking you to believe as I do.

It just seems that people used to expect that of religion, whether they agreed with the particular truth being espoused or not. Today, more and more, even the suggestion that there is an exclusive absolute truth is considered arrogant, brash, and offensive. When I read, "You Christians are saying I've got to believe your religion or burn in hell," I confess I interpret this accusatory tone that may not be intended.

Several here have asked me point-blank how I evaluate the LDS standing before Christ. My answer remains what it has been for a few years now--a position I came to as a result of this site--that is, "God knows." I still believe many of the doctrinal positions are seriously in error. But, only God knows how wrong you can be and still be right.

What of those who never knew? What of those who never had a reasonably clear explanation fot he gospel? What of the mentally ill, or the those emotionally or mentally disabled? Again, God knows.

But Jesus did say that he is the way to the Father. The only way. I cannot retreat from that. And for those who reject it, or simply cannot affirm it, my perspective may well be offensive.

I guess I yearn for those days gone by when folk of different religions could make their strongest claims, offer their most reasoned explanations, and either win agreement or disagreement--without all the "drama" about who's arrogant, who's narrow-minded, who's unkind. But alas, I don't get to set the atmosphere of spiritual discussion in society, and I suppose yearning for now expired societal understandings is an excercise in futility.

[Faded]

PC, I'm not entirely sure that those "good old days" ever existed. There was a lot more religious dialog in the 1800's but you still had a fair bit of people killing each other in the name of religion. The 1800's for our religion was one of extreme persecution and blatant intolerance. In a land guaranteeing religious freedom, we were driven from one state after another, but there was no crime committed deserving of such a hostile reaction. The general approach was to arrest or murder or commit to the sanitarium anybody who preached something you didn't agree with and found offensive. Those sorts of acts that were commonly inflicted upon Latter Day Saints in those days would get a person doing the persecuting arrested these days.

Agreed though that it would be nice if there was more of an open flow of religious dialog. We seem to have gone from a more openly religious public conversation to it becoming increasingly taboo to speak badly of any belief system no matter how strange it might seem.