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PrinceofLight2000

18 Year Old Rutgers Student Commits Suicide

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Invasion of Privacy Charges After Death of Tyler Clementi - NYTimes.com

This is an incredibly sad story. As a victim of bullying and as a witness of suicidal depression, I can empathize with this kid almost entirely. Harassment and malice should never be tolerated under any circumstance, no matter the disagreement. Christ taught us to love our fellow man, even if their beliefs or actions are abominable.

I've been having a discussion about this on another forum for the past two days, and what people have been saying about this really troubles me. Given the demographic of the website, there are very many liberal atheist college students that attend. I had no doubt I would be attacked for my beliefs that same-sex relations are wrong.

What disturbed me, however, is the secular left's adamant belief that a simple disagreement between Christians and homosexuals is the chief factor in fostering an environment where homosexuals are consistently put down, belittled, harassed, and are told that there is something inherently sinful about them and not just their actions, even though each and every one of us undergoes a similar struggle with temptation. They just simply don't understand that it is indeed a temptation. This, as opposed to people making the choice to pursue active malice against them. Here's just one example of the secular left's attitude from the thread I was having discussion in.

I'm obviously restating what's already been said multiple times, but my assumption is that this particular event was what pushed the kid over edge, so to speak. Bullying, to straight, fat, poor, or gay, has been and always will be a major issue - but in this day and age, it's definitely not antiquated. The religious organizations constantly and blatantly telling homosexuals that they are not right are far more public and outspoken than the others these days, and they're not only looked at as admirable within the conservative Christian community - they're looked upon as the absolute standard.

As someone who was raised under the belief that things like this were right, I can safely say that if this kid's parents are similar (which, admittedly, I have done no background research on), then the things he's had to endure or would've had to had they seen the video; let's just say that his suicide could very well not have been an irrational or stupid act.

I feel that this is flawed logic because we live in a society in which we are free to practice religion as we choose. No one should have to care about anyone else's theological opinions because they are free to formulate their own. Additionally, we also have the ability to legislate morality. While some on the other side of the ideological spectrum tend to classify that as tyranny, I don't see it that way. Legislation can be changed as the people's morality itself changes. For those who think that no morality should be imposed, please be reminded that without clear, enforced morals held by the majority of society on what is right and wrong, there could be no law and therefore no order. It is in the nature of law to uphold the right and punish the wrong. Furthermore, we are required to follow that law under the twelfth article of faith, even if we don't agree with it.

Secondly, I feel it's common sense that the true reason for this tragic death was because of intentional acts of malice as opposed to what has been suggested--that others' opposing viewpoints has an effect so profound it would cause someone to sink into so low a despair that they would commit suicide. I spoke to several friends about this incident as I was having my discussion, and one of them put it quite well. Opposing viewpoints do have a slight effect, but only a negligible one. The real reason why this boy died is clear, and that is because of the various degrees of abuse he suffered at the hands of his peers and possibly his parents, including harassment, bullying, and invasion of privacy.

When I have children, if one of my children turns out to be gay, I would do what I think any good Latter-Day Saint parent would do. I would tell them that although I disagree with their choice of beliefs, Heavenly Father gave them the ability to choose for a reason and that I have no right to mock or belittle them for exercising that ability. I would also let them know that as their father I will always love them, care for them, and be there for them, no matter what. All too often we hear about Christians who disown their children just because they make wrong choices and have the wrong attitudes when it comes to homosexuality. Imagine what would happen if that were to occur with other, smaller sins. There would be many broken families full of hatred and resentment toward one another, and it would create a very strong barrier against coming to any sort of understanding on both sides. I know a guy who's currently on his mission right now who told me once that if his brother were ever to become gay, that he would never speak to him again. Additionally, a member told a story in a post on here I had read (I'm sorry I can't remember your name) about how a ward missionary leader's abrasive and provocative comments toward a gay investigator turned him away from the church, when he was highly interested and even willing to take steps to change his lifestyle. These things are what cause the pain, and all of this deeply saddens me.

I have an aunt who is currently in a same sex relationship with another woman, in which they've adopted children. We've always considered her partner to be part of the family, and would never treat her as anything less. After my father had passed away, my aunt spoke with my mother and my aunt broke down in tears. She told my mother that she had always been troubled about how I thought of her because of what I believed. She was worried that I didn't love her or accept her as part of the family because of the choices she made. When my mom told me about this, I really wondered what could have made her think that, because nothing I had ever said to her suggested that I felt that way, and I didn't. I feel like sometimes there is great fear in the homosexual community to over exaggerate or even wholly imagine the presence of intolerance because of the way they have been mistreated in the past.

A few years later, I went on a family trip to cape cod with all of my dad's side. This issue got brought up amidst our political conversations, and my uncle (who is an ardent evangelical) and I who are the most religious of all of us both told them that we would always love them and treat them like family despite our disagreement with how they choose to live. I hope I was able to bring closure to my aunt's fears.

Make no mistake that we should not condone or accept any sin, but let this tragedy be a lesson to all of us to treat others the way we would want to be treated, with love, in the face of all our disagreements. Christ would undoubtedly do the same.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

When I first made the decision to repent of homosexual activity, I greatly feared how the bishop would react. Would he act disgusted or angry? Would I be made to feel worse than I already did over having sinned?

Anxious about disclosing such a personal struggle, I delayed the repentance process for many months. When I did finally meet with my bishop, instead of burdening me with more guilt, he beckoned me back to the fold with words as inviting as Alma’s: “If ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?” (Alma 5:26). The bishop’s calm and spiritual reaction to my confession made it easier to go to him later on, knowing I would be loved and helped. His Christlike approach aided in my repentance.

Equal to my fears of going to the bishop were my feelings of unworthiness to be at church with people who were living good lives and had not indulged in the sins I had committed. I was sure the first Sunday I returned to church that everyone would see right into my soul and know what I was guilty of and the feelings I was struggling with.

Instead, my anxieties were put to rest when members of the ward welcomed me back with loving fellowship. Repentance would have been much more difficult if I had gone from being a less-active member to a less-included member of the ward.

Supportive and loving Latter-day Saint friends and family are vital in the repentance process. When I first sought such support from a few longtime friends by revealing my struggle, I worried they would reject me. Yet just as the Savior would never reject someone because of his or her temptations, neither have my friends abandoned me because of my weakness. If they ever felt disappointment in learning of my temptations and mistakes, they replaced those feelings with the kind of charity President Ezra Taft Benson (1899–1994) described: “I have in my heart a love for all of God’s children. I have no ill feeling toward any human being. With you, I hate sin, but I love the sinner. We all have need to repent.” 4

When I feel overwhelmed by my situation, I am truly blessed to have these friends who will listen and encourage. They strengthen my resolve to endure to the end. The words that comforted and uplifted the Prophet Joseph Smith also comfort and uplift me: “Thy friends do stand by thee, and they shall hail thee again with warm hearts and friendly hands” (D&C 121:9).

Source

Edited by PrinceofLight2000

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I've been working on putting a post together about this, but hadn't quite got the wording worked out, so i'll start with commenting here.

Do i put all the blame on Christianity, not in the least, i know there are factors. Do i put some of the blame on Christianity, I'm not sure. The faith it's self, not really, the people in the faith, big time. When i was in Utah a few weeks ago i was talking with a member and we got on to the topic of Prop 8 and such. She started by commenting that the church really has never changed their stance, and it's always been communicated quite like it is today. I mentioned some of the church pamphlets that were handed out as late as 1996. Comments from a GA congratulating a missionary for hitting his gay companion, how it's all selfishness and changeable ect ect. She he was surprised but said then things had changed, and i agreed in some ways they had, but these pamphlets even though no longer distributed were never retracted either. So for a few generations of leaders, this is what they are still teaching their children along side current church teachings. young people are getting mixed ideas because the current leaders are teaching from two different lines of information. People in this church or any church can deny it, but that doesn't erase the experiences me and others have had to prove this.

I was talking with another poster on a thread and she said i made it sound like every gay person was beaten to death. She said society in no way promotes this. I then posted a link of a survey that asked 7000 gay people if they had been harassed or assaulted. 86% had faced harassment of some kind, and i think 21% had been physically assaulted. Now people are trying to change this, but there are challenges. In 10 states in schools orientation can't even be brought up, so when a gay kid is getting bullied, it really can't be dealt with in school. Teachers are at a loss on how to correct this. Yet really this ban on orientation in schools is supported by Christians. One of the key scare tactics in Prop 8 was that they would teach gay marriage in schools, and people were crying foul that gay lifestyle be brought up at all. Also Christians have been vocal on how exposure to the gay menace threatens to lead their kids away from the path and might turn them gay. Kids pick up on this and all of a sudden gays are becoming the new leapers. As much as Hate the sin love the sinner is preached, kids see more of the fear and mistrust and that's what they grow with, and by the time they can see the difference they already have the earlier views imprinted on them. even looking on this forum we see it in adults. We've been called pedophiles, perverts, deviants, handicapped, defective, we've been told to die and go to hell. Now imagine you kids hearing these things for years with the occasional "we need to love" these people and guess what they take away as the lesson. I've had people straight out ask me questions on gay topics and then berate me or really insult me because i'm pushing my gay on them.

If we limit peoples understanding by spreading fear and misinformation. If we tell people that we understand the issue without ever living it and claim to be experts on how it all works and feels, we are never going to get very far. I myself find it quite amazing how i've found people on this site who can explain the entire gay experience to me without ever going through it. or those who ask a question about it only to tell the people in the situation that they are wrong and completely mislead.

I think the funniest thing though will be when most of my comments will be tossed out as biased or uninformed. That i really don't get something or i just don't like christians, or that my experience has been unique and people as a whole are so much better. I guess all i can really say to that is, these kids are killing themselves. I don't blame religion, i blame people. I blame the very real fear and loathing of gay people. You can try to separate the people from the sin but in the end it's really silly. I've had people here he haven't asked, they just assume as to my relations with men. They don't ask if i am sinning they just know i'm gay and that's that. They see what i am as the sin, what i am as disgusting. Is that their fault and not the church's, you bet, but as long as there's a large vocal group that claims allegiance to Christianity, i'm going to view Christianity as a threat and part of the problem. I actually learned one of the guys who killed Matthew Shepherd in the 90's was a priesthood holder who had just gotten one of the old pamphlets on gays in the church that condoned violence against gay's. So yes i do see the church and Christians as a threat. A very real one. I know they shouldn't be, and i don't want them to be but they are.

Keep teaching your kids to fear and keep teaching your kids not to listen to us, not to learn about us, and to make sure we know just how different we are and how we just don't fit in and you'll see your kids keep tormenting gay kids, and some of those kids will kill themselves, and the cycle will keep going on and on until something changes.

Yes I'm biased, yes i know that i'm blind and i'm misguided, that i'm missing a bigger picture and that Christians really do their best and never want to see any one hurt and love everyone. As you type those words and other words to tell me just how little i know, i'll be reading through the articles about the 4 or 5 gay teens who killed themselves this month that we know about. Guess it's their fault, they were weak, they were cowards, guess we won't really ask why the kids who drove them to it were taught to believe like they did, lets blame the dead, so the living sleep easy, cause we know no one who calls them selves a christian has ever said anything less than kind to a gay or anyone else. Why listen to the words of the gay people, why would they know how they feel and what's said, in the end the world is better off without them....yet another thing i heard from a christian.

Edited by Soulsearcher

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Keep teaching your kids to fear and keep teaching your kids not to listen to us, not to learn about us, and to make sure we know just how different we are and how we just don't fit in and you'll see your kids keep tormenting gay kids, and some of those kids will kill themselves, and the cycle will keep going on and on until something changes.

Respectfully, you make it sound like.... "us" is some how another race or species or gender. I think many people , myself included, see homosexuality in rather simplistic ways. Homosexuality= romantic/emotional/sexual desire for one's own gender. I have read a lot of comments on this site from gay people and I do understand that it may be more complicated than that....queer, gay, bi, etc. But, honestly, gay people have probably gained more acceptance in a short amount of time than black people did in 100 years.

Sexuality and desire is a powerful thing and in the Mormon world..... a desire that must be overcome. Sexual sin is considered the most grievous of sins next to murder.....we are expected to either be chaste or marry and even then we must overcome passions that may lead us to be unfaithful. Heaven knows that many have fallen because of overwhelming sexual desire....like homosexuality.......lust is a very powerful mental narcotic. But it can be overcome.

It is sad indeed that this young man killed himself, BUT, it appears that the kids that tweeted the video weren't out to be malicious.....though it seems pretty malicious to me.

Christians can be very insensitive and so can non Christians.......many can be just down right hateful. The Gay community has done a poor job in changing their image...IMO.....(gay pride parades and cross dressing is bizarre and yeah I know straight people do weird stuff too, but we aren't the one's pleading to be accepted as normal). They need to explain in provable, easy to understand language that they are different than what straight people see. Because what we see is people that aren't a different race or gender or a newly discovered species, instead we see a people that wish to marry and be accepted because of what most see as an odd sexual appetite.

Edited by bytor2112

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In 10 states in schools orientation can't even be brought up, so when a gay kid is getting bullied, it really can't be dealt with in school. Teachers are at a loss on how to correct this. Yet really this ban on orientation in schools is supported by Christians.

It can be dealt with. Orientation shouldn't have to be brought up if the teachers condemn bullying for any reason.

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Sexuality and desire is a powerful thing and in the Mormon world..... a desire that must be overcome. Sexual sin is considered the most grievous of sins next to murder.....we are expected to either be chaste or marry and even then we must overcome passions that may lead us to be unfaithful. Heaven knows that many have fallen because of overwhelming sexual desire....like homosexuality.......lust is a very powerful mental narcotic. But it can be overcome./QUOTE]

Problem is, people don't care if the gays are having sex or not, just declaring one is gay is enough to be judged. I have not done anything with a man aside from a passionate kiss. I have still be classed a sinner, insulted, berated and condemned to hell. They don't care about the action in my experience, they just see the label. What i will do in the future is one thing but honestly i've already been judged by most i've met.

As for cross dressing yeah i find that odd, but i see straights do it to so that's kind out of the picture. the pride parades i'm mixed on, i understand the reasoning in some ways, no longer being hunted, arrested and beaten on site, over coming the fear and need to hide, i really get that because i go through great extents to remain hidden. LOL the way they do this lol i'm not the biggest fan of and it could in my mind be done with more class. lol

the fact that people teach or think it's just sexual means they aren't really understanding, yes there is a sexual component, but it's not just lust, there is more. I find a different connection with guys than girls, deeper, more real. If you can understand it goes deeper than simple sexual desire you start to understand why we think you don't quite understand. I dated to hide for years, i liked the girls but i didn't love them, they were a means to an end. When i finally was able to date a guy who meant the world to me i saw a whole different type of feeling and depth. There was no sexual component to the relationship but it was the deepest most rewarding relationship i've had. Yet even that is enough to be judged which really gets confusing because it's not a sin til there's sex, but even before sex we are evil...so really damned if we do damned if we don't. What are we supposed to feel. And yes this is common and i have been told by LDS and other christians that just by dating I'm already lost.

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It can be dealt with. Orientation shouldn't have to be brought up if the teachers condemn bullying for any reason.

Seriously....what about when a smart kid is bullied or a red headed freckle face kid or a fat kid or a short kid or a kid that wears glasses or a kid that has ugly teeth or a kid that is just ugly....etc.

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It can be dealt with. Orientation shouldn't have to be brought up if the teachers condemn bullying for any reason.

Which means either that doesn't work in these cases or the teachers don't care enough when it's gay kids, either way leads to concern.

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Seriously....what about when a smart kid is bullied or a red headed freckle face kid or a fat kid or a short kid or a kid that wears glasses or a kid that has ugly teeth or a kid that is just ugly....etc.

I agree, there should be 0 tolerance period for any and all bullying. Caught once and you are gone, but it will never really happen between the way the school systems are set up and the way parents deal with their kids while raising them.

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Which means either that doesn't work in these cases or the teachers don't care enough when it's gay kids, either way leads to concern.

Frankly, there are instances across the board when it comes to reasoning for the bullying where discipline doesn't work. I should know, it happened with me. I still see no reason for the need to set orientation apart in order to discipline bullying. All you'd have to do is apply a higher level of it. Warning leads to detention, then suspension, then possible expulsion. Lastly, if the teachers aren't doing enough to combat bullying for any reason, they need to be reprimanded or fired.

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Soulsearcher for what ever it's worth..... I don't understand the whole gay experience, I have known some gay people, but never really had any close gay friends.

I believe in a loving Father in Heaven that loves each and every one of us....WE are HIS children. I don't understand the internal conflict that gay people have to deal with any more than they do....but surely Heavenly Father does and HE absolutely loves you. I believe that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ ALL things are possible and miracles will and do happen.

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Problem is, people don't care if the gays are having sex or not, just declaring one is gay is enough to be judged. I have not done anything with a man aside from a passionate kiss. I have still be classed a sinner, insulted, berated and condemned to hell. They don't care about the action in my experience, they just see the label. What i will do in the future is one thing but honestly i've already been judged by most i've met.

As for cross dressing yeah i find that odd, but i see straights do it to so that's kind out of the picture. the pride parades i'm mixed on, i understand the reasoning in some ways, no longer being hunted, arrested and beaten on site, over coming the fear and need to hide, i really get that because i go through great extents to remain hidden. LOL the way they do this lol i'm not the biggest fan of and it could in my mind be done with more class. lol

the fact that people teach or think it's just sexual means they aren't really understanding, yes there is a sexual component, but it's not just lust, there is more. I find a different connection with guys than girls, deeper, more real. If you can understand it goes deeper than simple sexual desire you start to understand why we think you don't quite understand. I dated to hide for years, i liked the girls but i didn't love them, they were a means to an end. When i finally was able to date a guy who meant the world to me i saw a whole different type of feeling and depth. There was no sexual component to the relationship but it was the deepest most rewarding relationship i've had. Yet even that is enough to be judged which really gets confusing because it's not a sin til there's sex, but even before sex we are evil...so really damned if we do damned if we don't. What are we supposed to feel. And yes this is common and i have been told by LDS and other christians that just by dating I'm already lost.

No one is lost until they die unrepentant. Those who have told you this are wrong.

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Frankly, there are instances across the board when it comes to reasoning for the bullying where discipline doesn't work. I should know, it happened with me. I still see no reason for the need to set orientation apart in order to discipline bullying. All you'd have to do is apply a higher level of it. Warning leads to detention, then suspension, then possible expulsion. Lastly, if the teachers aren't doing enough to combat bullying for any reason, they need to be reprimanded or fired.

I agree, though from what i read the teachers specifically quoted that inability to even bring up orientation as a factor and acknowledge it made it difficult to discipline for bullying them on it, i'm not sure why and wish i could find more out.

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No one is lost until they die unrepentant. Those who have told you this are wrong.

And yet i hear it over and over. Wrong or not tell an already lost and hurting kid this a few dozen times a week/day and see what happens, then imagine if it's your best friend, parents, leaders.

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I agree, though from what i read the teachers specifically quoted that inability to even bring up orientation as a factor and acknowledge it made it difficult to discipline for bullying them on it, i'm not sure why and wish i could find more out.

To be honest, I'm not sure why the teachers need to give the students reasoning as to why their specific instance of bullying is unacceptable. The plain truth of it is that bullying for any reason is entirely unacceptable and reprehensible. It requires discipline. That's all that needs to be known.

Edited by PrinceofLight2000

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And yet i hear it over and over. Wrong or not tell an already lost and hurting kid this a few dozen times a week/day and see what happens, then imagine if it's your best friend, parents, leaders.

I know that it's a problem, and I denounced it several times in my OP. It's unfortunate that those who have leadership positions in the Church would sin in such a manner.

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I know that it's a problem, and I denounced it several times in my OP. It's unfortunate that those who have leadership positions in the Church would sin in such a manner.

There's a lot of mixed messages out there for kids and a lot of thought being passed on as fact. Better communication on all levels could go a long way.

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Soulsearcher, I appreciate your post but wanted to take issue with one statement:

Comments from a GA congratulating a missionary for hitting his gay companion, . . .

Did you also tell your friend that Elder Packer was speaking specifically about a missionary who woke up and found that his (yes, gay) companion was in the midst of sexually assaulting him?

I have no problem conceding that some of the Church's counsel to gays in the past, has been less-than-useful. On the other hand, when the Affirmation gang touts this speech of Packer's as some kind of evidence of church-sanctioned violence, the only conclusions I can draw are either a) they haven't read the talk, b) they have read the talk and are deliberately misrepresenting Elder Packer for their own political ends, or c) they believe straight Mormon boys have a duty to lie back and think of England (or Utah?) whenever a gay man tries to have forcible relations with them.

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In that other forum I mentioned, I just made a thread about the deplorable homophobic statements 50 Cent tweeted over the past month. I was met by a statement containing complete stupidity. What I mentioned before in my OP about leftists using the abuse of homosexuals as an assault on Christianity just happened again.

Also, I find his newest comment offensive to those who abstain in addition to homosexuals.

But you said you don't agree with homosexuals being homosexuals in a different thread..

Where on earth did you get this inane idea that just because I have a personal disagreement with homosexuality that it automatically means I accept or endorse homophobic comments such as the ones 50 Cent tweeted? I wouldn't have made this thread if I was accepting, tolerating, or agreeing with what he had to say. Christianity doesn't give anyone a license to mock or mistreat anyone else for any reason. We're taught to love all people despite whether we have disagreements with them which means everyone, including Christians, should be appalled and opposed to any of these sorts of statements. I get that a lot of Christians don't follow their own rules, but if you're going to sit here and try to say in a blanket statement that all Christians are homophobic, then you're being idiotic and ignorant. Open your eyes and look around. J.C. was the one who was arguing with me in that thread, and even he confessed that although he disagreed with my position, he didn't think I was homophobic or that I hated gay people. Grow up.

Also, nice new account, TheProsAndCons.

I'm fairly certain this guy had been banned a few weeks ago and he decided to make an illegal new account. That explains the last sentence, haha.

Anyway, this sort of thing just goes to show that rather than fighting each isolated case of intolerance one at a time, the secular leftists are turning this issue and victims of abuse such as this one into a gigantic politicized straw man. It's then used as a launching pad to attack Christianity as a fundamentally hateful and intolerant faith, which we all know isn't the case.

Edited by PrinceofLight2000

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After reading the initial article, I am curious as to how religion enters the picture. There didn't seem to be any mention of religion. Not even about this being a schadenfreude moment for the most ravenous of religionists.

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After reading the initial article, I am curious as to how religion enters the picture. There didn't seem to be any mention of religion. Not even about this being a schadenfreude moment for the most ravenous of religionists.

Not in the article. The part of my OP which pertains to religion was based on another discussion I was having on another forum about this article.

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In that other forum I mentioned, I just made a thread about the deplorable homophobic statements 50 Cent tweeted over the past month. I was met by a statement containing complete stupidity. What I mentioned before in my OP about leftists using the abuse of homosexuals as an assault on Christianity just happened again.

I'm fairly certain this guy had been banned a few weeks ago and he decided to make an illegal new account. That explains the last sentence, haha.

Anyway, this sort of thing just goes to show that rather than fighting each isolated case of intolerance one at a time, the secular leftists are turning this issue and victims of abuse such as this one into a gigantic politicized straw man. It's then used as a launching pad to attack Christianity as a fundamentally hateful and intolerant faith, which we all know isn't the case.

As i said earlier though maybe not the best, personally i have no problem with the faith, the problem is the followers of the faith. Instead of leaving well enough alone and leaving people to their own lives, too many take the opportunity to harp, belittle, and even terrorize people they don't agree with. And yes this is any group of people or even individuals, but when they do so in the name of christ, or with the intention of bringing people to christ, ect ect, then it brings all of christianity into it. I see being cussed at and taunted by one ignorant bigot that does it out of pure ignorance as very different than christian after christian that has gone out of their way to get in my face and point out how wrong i am or what an abomination i am without knowing any thing about me. If it was a rare time it's one thing, but time after time Christians use the fact that being they don't understand, but god must be right so we don't need to be listened to or even really talked to about things beyond being told we are wrong, it's hard for me to really understand that christians don't support people doing the same things in different ways. When i see christians rush to point out how wring and at fault i am without actually talking to me, i see no difference from anyone else not caring enough about the person and making an issue out of their orientation. I don't think the secular left should go after Christianity, i think it should go after the Christians that are so far off their mark and use their faith as a shield to defend it.

Edited by Soulsearcher

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As i said earlier though maybe not the best, personally i have no problem with the faith, the problem is the followers of the faith. Instead of leaving well enough alone and leaving people to their own lives, too many take the opportunity to harp, belittle, and even terrorize people they don't agree with. And yes this is any group of people or even individuals, but when they do so in the name of christ, or with the intention of bringing people to christ, ect ect, then it brings all of christianity into it. I see being cussed at and taunted by one ignorant bigot that does it out of pure ignorance as very different than christian after christian that has gone out of their way to get in my face and point out how wrong i am or what an abomination i am without knowing any thing about me. If it was a rare time it's one thing, but time after time Christians use the fact that being they don't understand, but go must be right so we don't need to be listened to or even really talked to about things beyond being told we are wrong, it's hard for me to really understand that christians don't support people doing the same things in different ways. When i see christians rush to point out how wring and at fault i am without actually talking to me, i see no difference from anyone else not caring enough about the person and making an issue out of their orientation. I don't think the secular left should go after Christianity, i think it should go after the Christians that are so far off their mark and use their faith as a shield to defend it.

The real shame about it is that only love can win people over and get them interested in changing. Just like in that story about the ward missionary leader and the gay investigator, and in the talk at the bottom of the OP.

Did you mean to say they shouldn't go after Christianity? I don't feel like they need to attack the faith itself in order to chastise those who aren't following their own precepts.

Edit: oops, I think you edited before I quoted you. haha.

Edited by PrinceofLight2000

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The real shame about it is that only love can win people over and get them interested in changing. Just like in that story about the ward missionary leader and the gay investigator, and in the talk at the bottom of the OP.

Did you mean to say they shouldn't go after Christianity? I don't feel like they need to attack the faith itself in order to chastise those who aren't following their own precepts.

Edit: oops, I think you edited before I quoted you. haha.

I think as long as these people find shelter and acceptance and support under the umbrella

of Christianity then yes The faith is going to be the target, sadly much like people want to do the same to muslims. The acts of a few has polarized opinion against all of them and it's hard to shake. As long as the response to these Christians is " they are only preaching gods word" then yes the faith suffers. As long as christians feel the need to harp and dramatize the danger gays present then yes the faith is the target. When the religious right (mostly christian base) presented homosexuality as the biggest danger that the world has ever seen, then sadly yes Christianity gets the spot light. Change the public direction and renounce the ones who don't know how to leave it in the hands of god alone and to stay out of peoples private lives, then we can focus on the individuals.

Guilt by association, as a gay i have to be judged by the vocal in your face and careless ones of my group so sadly it goes both ways.

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Soulsearcher for what ever it's worth..... I don't understand the whole gay experience, I have known some gay people, but never really had any close gay friends.

I believe in a loving Father in Heaven that loves each and every one of us....WE are HIS children. I don't understand the internal conflict that gay people have to deal with any more than they do....but surely Heavenly Father does and HE absolutely loves you. I believe that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ ALL things are possible and miracles will and do happen.

I can understand how someone who has never experienced same sex attractions would be a bit mystified by the struggle. Speaking from my own experience, the "gay experience" is indeed a tremendous struggle. and involves much suffering, especially for someone who truly wants to follow Christ. I don't know whether same sex attractions are innate or learned, or learned at such an early age so as to make it seem innate, but I don't think it really matters. Powerful incentives to sin come from everywhere, and in many contexts. There are many people who suffer from seemingly innate proclivities to substance abuse, compulsive theft, self-mutiliation, etc. Should they abandon all efforts at self-restraint and simply indulge themselves because it feels "natural"? Apparently, giving in to every base impulse is one of the Sacraments of the new world order. :disgust:

Hence the societal pressure to dip your toe in those waters, to "come out" and be you you "really are." For someone suffering from same sex attractions, it is that drumbeat, and not the Church's proclamations of truth, which is truly causing the sorts of horrible tragedies as the one at Rutgers. If you are someone who is truly experiencing same sex attractions, the societal pressure to give in to those temptations is absolutely overwhelming. The best hope for a young man (and it is usually young men) to resist this temptation in the face of these temptations - or to crawl out of the lifestyle if he's fallen into it - are a fine-tuned moral compass, a firm testimony, a supporting and understanding family, humble, approachable and caring local church leadership, and open lines of communication all around.

I hardly had any of those things, which is why I fell into the trap, and stayed in that trap for more than 12 years. But I am also living proof of the miracle of which you speak, and of which Elder Packer spoke on Sunday morning. For those who have faith, and are willing to persevere and place their trust in the Lord, it is possible to put that lifestyle in the past, to unshackle the chains and get one's Agency back, so to speak. I've been out of if now for 16 months, and they have been among the 16 happiest months of my life. I am now living as who I "really" am - a child of my Heavenly Father.

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Homosexuality and Mental Health Problems

the above states that the higher suicide rates were attributed to break-ups with partners...

I have also read that suicide rates of homosexuals is the same in areas like San Fran (where their lifestyle is accepted) as it is in Bible Belt states - that there is not a higher suicide rate in Bible belt states suggests that their depression is not the result of Christians being overtly mean to them.

A few thoughts. I read through the link and found that there was a lot of guess work. They assumed because a place if more friendly to gay that there was less reason for persecution to have a large affect but there were no numbers to back it up and they admitted it was theory with no fact it seems in the paper. Just because a place is more at ease with something doesn't mean people will not run into a large amount of resistance, just means they might have access to more support. For youth all it takes in a handful of people making life hell to make life not worth living in their eyes. The other thing missed is that after a suicide orientation is not always knows so some numbers in a lot of studies don't always know the whys or much of the info.

Mental Health America: Bullying and Gay Youth

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