No Mormon scout leaders

[scdoyle]

No Scout Leadership Post In NC For Mormon Parents - CBS News

[MarginOfError]

They were within their rights to do it. In fact, LDS troops practically function the same way. It's very rare to see an LDS troop with non-LDS leaders, for better or worse.

I tend to be fairly quiet about my religious preference around my troop. As we start to see more boys from the Episcopalian church join the troop, I want to be careful not to get asked to step down over my faith.

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah - I'm thinking the LDS parents bear the majority of the blame for this kerfuffle. Christian organizations vary wildly in their understanding of/tolerance of/desire to be around Mormons. You need to figure out what an organization thinks about you, before dumping your kids in the middle of it and offering to become one of the leaders.

LM

[Wingnut]

No Scout Leadership Post In NC For Mormon Parents - CBS News

So?

[dash77]

I’m not sure if they were in there right to do this or not. I do not know enough about the situation to make such a judgment – maybe margin of error has some type of inside skinny of what was going on.

In my mind, I would need to learn more about the Presbyterian churches bylaws and policies. In the LDS church, we do not forbid a person who volunteers simply do to another religious affiliation. However, there are rules of conduct (policy) and if they are broken or could be broken then changes are made (be it a member or non-member). I once lived in a ward where a non-member was the scout leader and he seemed like a really great and caring guy. In regard to two-deep leadership whether you are a member or not this is a policy and if a leader consistently breaks this policy then they should be removed from their calling or volunteer service.

I would have to learn more about the situation to be able to make a fair-minded observation. Perhaps these LDS leaders were breaking the other church policy and were conducting missionary work in the walls of this other church. Maybe these two leaders were dismissed simply because they were Mormon and were discriminated against. Maybe this church has a real policy that Christians need to be leaders and honestly believe that Mormons are not Christians. Who knows – but I think people should be more fair-minded and investigate the issue more so before make explicitly judgments.

[Wingnut]

I’m not sure if they were in there right to do this or not. I do not know enough about the situation to make such a judgment – maybe margin of error has some type of inside skinny of what was going on.

>snip<

I would have to learn more about the situation to be able to make a fair-minded observation. Perhaps these LDS leaders were breaking the other church policy and were conducting missionary work in the walls of this other church. Maybe these two leaders were dismissed simply because they were Mormon and were discriminated against. Maybe this church has a real policy that Christians need to be leaders and honestly believe that Mormons are not Christians. Who knows – but I think people should be more fair-minded and investigate the issue more so before make explicitly judgments.

From the article:

Regardless of doctrinal questions, Christ Covenant's Cub Scout program is within its rights to deny the Stokeses leadership positions, according to Mark Turner, executive director of the Mecklenburg County Council of the Boy Scouts of America, which also includes the Cub Scouts.

So according to the local Council, the troop/pack was within its rights to do this.

From the same spokesperson:

As long as groups that charter Scout units follow the guidelines set by the national organization, they can set their own additional policies, he said.

That could include limiting leadership to members of the faith that sponsors the troop.

[MarginOfError]

I’m not sure if they were in there right to do this or not. I do not know enough about the situation to make such a judgment – maybe margin of error has some type of inside skinny of what was going on.

In my mind, I would need to learn more about the Presbyterian churches bylaws and policies. In the LDS church, we do not forbid a person who volunteers simply do to another religious affiliation. However, there are rules of conduct (policy) and if they are broken or could be broken then changes are made (be it a member or non-member). I once lived in a ward where a non-member was the scout leader and he seemed like a really great and caring guy. In regard to two-deep leadership whether you are a member or not this is a policy and if a leader consistently breaks this policy then they should be removed from their calling or volunteer service.

I would have to learn more about the situation to be able to make a fair-minded observation. Perhaps these LDS leaders were breaking the other church policy and were conducting missionary work in the walls of this other church. Maybe these two leaders were dismissed simply because they were Mormon and were discriminated against. Maybe this church has a real policy that Christians need to be leaders and honestly believe that Mormons are not Christians. Who knows – but I think people should be more fair-minded and investigate the issue more so before make explicitly judgments.

There's nothing to investigate. Each unit is permitted to apply additional enrollment criteria to suit the chartering organization. The Boy Scouts of America is not a public entity and has the right to exclude groups if it so chooses. For instance, those who profess to be atheist or agnostic are not permitted to participate in the program.

A presbyterian church may state categorically that it will not accept leaders who are LDS.

What's important to remember is that this is an instance where a presbyterian church (ie, one local congregation) chose that they did not want LDS leaders in their unit. It might cause them to lose some face in the community, but not much. The LDS members have no recourse. They're simply not welcome in the club and no investigation is necessary.

[Guest]

Don't they have a cub scout program in their ward/stake?

[Wingnut]

Don't they have a cub scout program in their ward/stake?

According to the article, they chose not to participate in it, because it didn't offer Tiger Scouts for their six-year-old. However, they have since joined that pack, which has even included the younger boy.

Aside from those facts clearly stated in the article, it's possible that they specifically wanted their boys involved with a non-LDS-affiliated troop.

[Guest]

According to the article, they chose not to participate in it, because it didn't offer Tiger Scouts for their six-year-old. However, they have since joined that pack, which has even included the younger boy.

Aside from those facts clearly stated in the article, it's possible that they specifically wanted their boys involved with a non-LDS-affiliated troop.

Okay, I admit I didn't read the article.

I have to say, when our kid was 6, he joined a Presbetyrian tiger scout program. All the leaders were from the Presbyterian church. We didn't expect any different.

I don't know why one would expect different... I sure would be a little worried if a Presbyterian becomes our Cub Scout Leader. They do their Faith in God in scouts and I'm thinking the Presbyterian Faith in God thingee may be slightly different...

[Wingnut]

I don't know why one would expect different... I sure would be a little worried if a Presbyterian becomes our Cub Scout Leader. They do their Faith in God in scouts and I'm thinking the Presbyterian Faith in God thingee may be slightly different...

But Faith in God is a Primary-based program, not a Scout-based one. Girls earn it, too. Cub Scout activities likely facilitate the earning of the award, but it could be done outside an LDS pack environment at home with one's parents. It's about baptism, preparing for the Priesthood, testimony, service, etc. The girls' version is pretty much the same, except that it's preparing for Young Women, instead of the Priesthood.

[dash77]

The point I am raising is if we can trust a newspaper article as a reliable source for information. My answer is no. There an many good books written on the topic of media literacy -- but one of my favorites is by Dr. W. James Potter called "media literacy" he has a great chapter in how media like to sensationalize stories to get people worked up or to create fear -- so they can build profit (people who are worked up or are fearful will usually keep returning to the news source to either argue the case or gain information to protect their fears -- when there are more customers newspapers can increase advertising).

My point is that I do not think a news paper article is a good source to make such a decision or to create opinions. Journalists pick their information and usually exclude other aspects of information to create a story to sell.

[MarginOfError]

The point I am raising is if we can trust a newspaper article as a reliable source for information. My answer is no. There an many good books written on the topic of media literacy -- but one of my favorites is by Dr. W. James Potter called "media literacy" he has a great chapter in how media like to sensationalize stories to get people worked up or to create fear -- so they can build profit (people who are worked up or are fearful will usually keep returning to the news source to either argue the case or gain information to protect their fears -- when there are more customers newspapers can increase advertising).

My point is that I do not think a news paper article is a good source to make such a decision or to create opinions. Journalists pick their information and usually exclude other aspects of information to create a story to sell.

It wasn't hard to find a corroborating story

Church: Mormons can't lead scouts - Religion - Wire - TheSunNews.com

The media we can't trust seems to have gotten it right. The pastor of the church came right out and said that they were refused leadership positions because of their religion. I think you're being a tad over-jaded.

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, it's certainly not exactly an uncommon thing for a Mormon to be denied something from a Christian organization because we're Mormon.

I personally have been told that I don't need to bother applying for a positing and Focus on the Family because I can't sign their statement of faith.

My wife was told personally that she wouldn't be teaching at a Nazarene Co-op, because they require all their teachers to sign a statement of faith which included things like biblical infallibility and acceptance of the trinity.

It's not a bad thing, and it's not specifically targeting mormons either.

LM

[Just_A_Guy]

But Faith in God is a Primary-based program, not a Scout-based one. Girls earn it, too. Cub Scout activities likely facilitate the earning of the award, but it could be done outside an LDS pack environment at home with one's parents. It's about baptism, preparing for the Priesthood, testimony, service, etc. The girls' version is pretty much the same, except that it's preparing for Young Women, instead of the Priesthood.

I work with the 11-year-old Scouts (and am also, with my wife, their primary teacher). Scout leader-specific training specifically encouraged us to work Faith in God, memorizing the Articles of Faith, etc. into Scouting. Also, as far as I know, the Faith in God award--while technically a Church program--is closely allied with Scouting; Scouts who earn it are entitled to wear a religious-emblem square knot on their uniforms.

More fundamentally: Mormonism uses Scouting as a tool to instill Mormon values into its young men, and I suspect the Presbyterians do likewise. If the organizations that sponsor those units are then compelled to accept unit leaders who neither share those values nor will actively instill those values into the boys--the unit's raison d'etre is pretty much gone, as far as the sponsoring organization is concerned.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Wingnut]

I work with the 11-year-old Scouts (and am also, with my wife, their primary teacher). Scout leader-specific training specifically encouraged us to work Faith in God, memorizing the Articles of Faith, etc. into Scouting. Also, as far as I know, the Faith in God award--while technically a Church program--is closely allied with Scouting; Scouts who earn it are entitled to wear a religious-emblem square knot on their uniforms.

I recognize and acknowledge all this.

More fundamentally: Mormonism uses Scouting as a tool to instill Mormon values into its young men, and I suspect the Presbyterians do likewise. If the organizations that sponsor those units are then compelled to accept unit leaders who neither share those values nor will actively instill those values into the boys--the unit's raison d'etre is pretty much gone, as far as the sponsoring organization is concerned.

But this is what I was thinking. The Faith in God program is not specifically a Scouting program. Scouting is the vehicle, or as you say, the tool, used to execute the Faith in God program. A boy in a non-LDS-affiliated cub pack could still earn his Faith in God award, and the religious knot for his uniform on his own. It would just be a different religion than the one associated with his pack.

[Just_A_Guy]

But this is what I was thinking. The Faith in God program is not specifically a Scouting program. Scouting is the vehicle, or as you say, the tool, used to execute the Faith in God program. A boy in a non-LDS-affiliated cub pack could still earn his Faith in God award, and the religious knot for his uniform on his own. It would just be a different religion than the one associated with his pack.

Absolutely, as long as the boy accepts the LDS unit for what it is.

My worries--and, I think, Anatess'--are when the boy's parents want to assume a position whose responsibilities (as far as the sponsoring organization is concerned) are primarily to instill values in the boys that the parents themselves may not hold.

[MarginOfError]

BSA Religious Emblems Program

I'll reaffirm and contradict the statements of several people.

The link goes to the booklet that gets people started on earning religious awards. Awards and their requirements are defined and issued by the respective churches, and not by the BSA. The BSA only maintains a warehouse of information to help leaders from local units find the requirements for their boys. The most appropriate venue for presentation of such an award is in the individuals church, but it may also be appropriate to present it at a court of honor. Usually, these awards are recognized at courts of honor.

The Faith in God program is officially recognized by the BSA as the LDS cub scout religious award program. However, earning the Faith in God award results in neither an emblem nor a knot that the boy can wear on his uniform. It would appear that the LDS Church doesn't make cub scout religious awards as big a deal as some other religions (judge as you will). Instead, a certificate is presented. That certificate is found in the back of the Faith in God booklet.

In instances where the cub pack is administered by a specific religion with a primary focus on its own youth, the religious requirements are easily adapted into the regular scouting program. In non-denominational or multi-denominational units (such as mine), the programs are typically pursued by self-motivated youth.

In Boy Scouts, a square knot patch (a silver knot on a purple background) is earned when the boy earns his religious emblem. For LDS troops, this is the On My Honor award. 11 year old scouts in LDS troops who complete the Faith in God program should not be given the religious square knot.

Adults may be nominated for an adult religious award. These emblems, when awarded, are usually emblems worn around the neck (instead of the pins the boys receive). A square knot is also awarded, but it is a purple knot on a silver background.

Just because it irritates me, I'm going to complain about it again...I can never earn the LDS adult religious emblem. One of the requirements is that I serve in a Church sponsored troop for three years. I dont' think I'd last three months before I was asked to step down for unwillingness to play by the Church's scouting regs. Grrrr.....maybe some day I'll get nominated for the Episcopalian award.

Edited October 21, 2010 by MarginOfError
corrected "The Faith in God program is officially recognized by the BSA as the [LDS] cub scout religious award program."

[Wingnut]

Just because it irritates me, I'm going to complain about it again...I can never earn the LDS adult religious emblem. One of the requirements is that I serve in a Church sponsored troop for three years. I dont' think I'd last three months before I was asked to step down for unwillingness to play by the Church's scouting regs. Grrrr.....maybe some day I'll get nominated for the Episcopalian award.

Your post overall deserved a thanks, which is what I gave it, but this paragraph deserves a laugh.

[Just_A_Guy]

MOE, I hate to quibble, but page 5 of the Faith in God for boys book (here) reads:

If you are a Cub Scout, you can also earn the Scouting Religious Square Knot patch. To do this, complete all the activities with the [square knot symbol] next to them.

Yes, there is no longer a medal; but you can still wear the knot. (In point of fact, I understand the Church is bucking official BSA policy here. I believe that, as per the Insignia Guide, the knot is a symbol of the award that may be worn on less-formal occasions, but it is not [supposed to be] the award.)

If you later get the On My Honor award, you wear two "devices" on your knot--one for Cub Scouting and the other for Boy, Varsity, or Venture Scouting--whichever you were when you earned the award. Like so:

(I also earned the now-defunct "Duty to God" award, so I actually have three devices on my youth religious knot. Strictly for bragging rights, of course! The Church has a new Duty to God program, but they don't give you the same nifty medal like the old one did and I don't think it carries the Scout associations that the old one did.)

I do accept and appreciate your correction regarding 11-year-olds no longer being able to earn the Faith in God religious knot; though (depending on where you are) you'll still see the 11-y-o scout leaders being asked to have their kids complete the primary aspect of the program. (If you're in Utah, odds are this request will come through the District).

For the adult religious emblem - take heart; they also let you count time served in Primary.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[miztrniceguy]

The only part about the whole thing that ticks me off is the ignorance in assertions that we are not Christians. One article I read also referenced former Gov Huckabee's comment in a vague manner without actually providing the content of the comment. quote " I mean, I'm very clear that I do not believe Mormonism is a Christian faith." Huckabee Says Problem With Romney Is His "Inconsistencies," Not His Faith - Horserace - CBS News

[Wingnut]

For the adult religious emblem - take heart; they also let you count time served in Primary.

Ah, but the first listed requirement is that you must "Be registered and participate in a Church-sponsored Scouting unit." The three years is in the Aaronic Priesthood or Primary, not Scouting actually.

Sorry, MOE, I guess.

[Just_A_Guy]

No, no; MOE just needs to a) get involved in an LDS unit, and b) get the emblem before they kick him out.

As executive secretary (or is it membership clerk), MOE, you'll have no trouble scheduling a timely interview with the Bishop for yourself--right?

[MarginOfError]

MOE, I hate to quibble, but page 5 of the Faith in God for boys book (here) reads:

Yes, there is no longer a medal; but you can still wear the knot. (In point of fact, I understand the Church is bucking official BSA policy here. I believe that, as per the Insignia Guide, the knot is a symbol of the award that may be worn on less-formal occasions, but it is not [supposed to be] the award.)

If you later get the On My Honor award, you wear two "devices" on your knot--one for Cub Scouting and the other for Boy, Varsity, or Venture Scouting--whichever you were when you earned the award. Like so:

(I also earned the now-defunct "Duty to God" award, so I actually have three devices on my youth religious knot. Strictly for bragging rights, of course! The Church has a new Duty to God program, but they don't give you the same nifty medal like the old one did and I don't think it carries the Scout associations that the old one did.)

I do accept and appreciate your correction regarding 11-year-olds no longer being able to earn the Faith in God religious knot; though (depending on where you are) you'll still see the 11-y-o scout leaders being asked to have their kids complete the primary aspect of the program. (If you're in Utah, odds are this request will come through the District).

For the adult religious emblem - take heart; they also let you count time served in Primary.

CRAP! I hate being wrong.

[MarginOfError]

The only part about the whole thing that ticks me off is the ignorance in assertions that we are not Christians. One article I read also referenced former Gov Huckabee's comment in a vague manner without actually providing the content of the comment. quote " I mean, I'm very clear that I do not believe Mormonism is a Christian faith." Huckabee Says Problem With Romney Is His "Inconsistencies," Not His Faith - Horserace - CBS News

It shouldn't. We use a different definition of 'Christian' than many other Christian denominations. For many, the fact the we reject the doctrine of the Trinity is sufficient reason to reject Mormonism as a Christian religion.

When different denominations are operating under different definitions of what qualifies as Christianity, it shouldn't surprise us at all if we don't fit someone else's definition.