Salvation and Grace and Works...can we agree on this?

[Justice]

So, it seems the difference is that I will claim my conversion, my salvation, right away. Then I will work to please my Master to grow in it. I also work to protect it. You seem to suggest that your labor is to make sure you get it at the end.

You could say it that way. I'll buy it.

The truth is, if you say you work to keep your salvation, or that if you don't work to keep it you lose it, then we are much closer than LDS is with most others.

In fact, it would then become a matter of timing.

If you can lose your salvation by not "working," then it stands to reason that the gift isn't given until after, when you have showed you have endured to the end. Otherwise, it might be a premature gift, if it is given then you fall away.

Always a pleasure chatting with you PC.

[Traveler]

I have yet to meet a Christian of any stripe who has achieved sinless perfection. We strive for that. We do not excuse our failures. But 1 John 1:8 tells me that if I say I am without sin I am a liar, and God is not in me. The difference is that I am no longer bound by sin.

Our good works are love offerings to the Savior. Our "pay" will be in the responsiblities we are given in God's kingdom. Further, it will be in the sense that we did well with what we were given by our Sovereign. Who was it that said "a job well done is its own reward?"

Jesus used the Samaritan to shock his Jewish audience into understanding that their status and titles were no guarantee that they pleased God. He repeatedly condemned the over-emphasis on ritual, to the neglect of the widows and orphans, etc. I would not interpret the parable to mean that those who care for the poor will go to heaven, and those who believe in Jesus and pray will be condemned.

No. You are a victim of grace/works debate, in which evangelicals emphasize grace so strongly, and insist so intensely that works have no part in salvation (conversion), that you get the impression we find works to be of no regard.

We do teach and believe in discipleship, Christian maturity, "letting people see our good works and glorify our God in heaven," etc. And again, sure, those who are the most faithful will be given the greatest honors in heaven.

Your last post would indicate that there is very little difference in basic understanding of salvation between LDS and Evangelicals. That our rewards (treasures) in heaven are earned is new understanding concerning Evangelicals to me. I believe this single understanding is one of the primary problems between LDS and Evangelicals.

Just as a point concerning your understanding of 1John 1:8. You may have over emphasized one point and missed another. Verse 10 sheds a little more light on the subject. Those that think they do not need to repent and thus no need for the Christ are in error. Verse 9 indicates that we become clean from all unrighteousness (sin) through Christ. Is this what you meant by “sinless perfection”?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Your last post would indicate that there is very little difference in basic understanding of salvation between LDS and Evangelicals. That our rewards (treasures) in heaven are earned is new understanding concerning Evangelicals to me. I believe this single understanding is one of the primary problems between LDS and Evangelicals.

The reality is we do not talk much about heaven--other than that it is our hope and it will be wonderful. We do hear about storing up treasure in heaven, and mostly think that yes we should do well on earth for our Lord. There's not a lot of speculation about who will get what and why in heaven. And, to speak of trying to get more treasure than others would like sound rather unseemly to our ears. Perhaps because of this, some may even deny the idea that some faithful will get greater rewards than others. But, yes, I see it. Like most of my fellow evangelicals, I'll just be happy to be in the Kingdom. Jesus' parable of the talents also informs me though that giants in the faith will be the most giant in heaven as well.

Just as a point concerning your understanding of 1John 1:8. You may have over emphasized one point and missed another. Verse 10 sheds a little more light on the subject. Those that think they do not need to repent and thus no need for the Christ are in error. Verse 9 indicates that we become clean from all unrighteousness (sin) through Christ. Is this what you meant by “sinless perfection."

We do primarily use this passage to introduce people to Christian faith, and to the need to confess our sins. However, it is written to the churches--to believers. We are perfect in Christ. However we still struggle against "the old man." Our old sinful nature still beckons us. Who amongst us has not given in to even one temptation in the last year? So, what I mean by sinless perfection is literally that--we no longer sin--not even in our thoughts. My understanding is that we will not achieve that in this life. Nevertheless, we do strive for that. We do not become complacent, as some are prone to do, by saying, "I'm just a sinner, saved by grace." Our eye is on the prize, and our direction is spiritually northward.

Edited November 2, 2010 by prisonchaplain

[rameumptom]

My conversion had nothing to do with obedience to the gospel. I went to play church basketball when a high school friend invited me. The bishop invited me into his office to chat, where the Spirit was so strong, I was instantly converted without knowing anything about the gospel or doing anything beyond entering into his office.

So, while obedience and good works can help to convert us, it isn't always that way. In my instance, PC is definitely correct.

[Justice]

I don't view "being converted" as "coming to know Jesus Christ. I believe the Book of Mormon teaches us that being converted to Jesus Christ is when we no longer desire to do evil and do good continually. It is when we put off the natural man and become a spiritual man.

I don't think one can become fully conveted to Jesus Christ in just one interview, or the known cases of such are exremely rare... even within the scriptures.

I believe you can come to know truth, like that Joseph Smith is a prophet, or that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. But, those things are very different than being converted.

[spamlds]

We agree that grace is what saves us. We agree that grace is a free gift from God that none of us merit. We agree that we are 100 percent reliant upon Jesus Christ for grace.

The difference is our concepts about how we obtain grace.

We believe that grace comes through faith, repentance, and obedience to gospel ordinances.

[Sali]

My conversion came before I even met with the missionairies. A member was reading to me in the Bible, John 3:5. All of a sudden this feeling just washed over me that I needed to Baptised and I knew I wanted to turn my life over to Christ. It was such a beautiful feeling that I had never felt before. I was 18 and living a very worldly life and yet went out with my friends that evening and told them what I was going to do. (Which in the UK is not an easy thing to do:D). I felt the Spirit telling me the LDS Church was where I needed to be and I asked for the missionairies to teach me and I was baptised a week and a half later. Now why I am telling you this is because the conversion came first and the desire to do what was right and to change my life came because of my conversion. Does this cause me to differ from maybe a child that is born into the Church and is baptised at eight years old? Are we teaching our children to focus on the conversion or the obedience (works) side of the Gospel? Sorry if this is kind of distracting away from the topic.

[prisonchaplain]

Sali...your point is most useful and helpful. I still see that we are hopelessly stuck on this thing of which comes first the grace or the works. If works is required to receive grace, then is grace not a reward rather than a gift, freely given?

[Sali]

I understand completely with what you are saying PC and sometimes I feel the confusion myself. But where I have come to peace is that I think that works are necessary to live as Christ would have us live and to help us to become more like him. But I do feel the works should be done because we love Christ rather than because it's our duty to be obedient and maybe I differ from some LDS by believing this, I don't know . I guess it all boils down to we will each approach this on the level that we understand and feel comfortable with.

It's almost like we're on the same page but approach it from different viewpoints if that makes sense. :)

[Justice]

I still see that we are hopelessly stuck on this thing of which comes first the grace or the works. If works is required to receive grace, then is grace not a reward rather than a gift, freely given?

You are stuck if you don't view the reward as a gift.

There has to be a difference between those who strive to keep the commandments and those that do not.

Hebrews 11:

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

No matter what we do we are not worthy of any reward He gives us. His grace is a gift to those who seek Him, not that the gift is earned by the seeking. He deems that we must seek Him in order to receive His grace. He is the judge.

If one does not seek Him then that person is not privy to receive the same gifts or rewards that as one who does seek Him.

Again, there must be a difference between one who seeks and one who does not.

[Dravin]

I don't really have much to contribute to this discussion but I just wanted to say I've got a minor man crush on PC for his effort to face the hordes* in a calm and eloquent manner.

* Not to disparage my fellows, but its easy to get frustrated when outnumbered.

[Traveler]

The reality is we do not talk much about heaven--other than that it is our hope and it will be wonderful. We do hear about storing up treasure in heaven, and mostly think that yes we should do well on earth for our Lord. There's not a lot of speculation about who will get what and why in heaven. And, to speak of trying to get more treasure than others would like sound rather unseemly to our ears. Perhaps because of this, some may even deny the idea that some faithful will get greater rewards than others. But, yes, I see it. Like most of my fellow evangelicals, I'll just be happy to be in the Kingdom. Jesus' parable of the talents also informs me though that giants in the faith will be the most giant in heaven as well.

We do primarily use this passage to introduce people to Christian faith, and to the need to confess our sins. However, it is written to the churches--to believers. We are perfect in Christ. However we still struggle against "the old man." Our old sinful nature still beckons us. Who amongst us has not given in to even one temptation in the last year? So, what I mean by sinless perfection is literally that--we no longer sin--not even in our thoughts. My understanding is that we will not achieve that in this life. Nevertheless, we do strive for that. We do not become complacent, as some are prone to do, by saying, "I'm just a sinner, saved by grace." Our eye is on the prize, and our direction is spiritually northward.

Welcom to the journey

The Traveler

[Traveler]

We agree that grace is what saves us. We agree that grace is a free gift from God that none of us merit. We agree that we are 100 percent reliant upon Jesus Christ for grace.

The difference is our concepts about how we obtain grace.

We believe that grace comes through faith, repentance, and obedience to gospel ordinances.

I would amend your last scentance. I believe grace is a done deal. It is through faith, repentance and obedience to the gospel ordinances that we develop grace ourselves to forgive others and ourselves.

The Traveler

[Justice]

Grace is so easy to misunderstand without modern revelation.

Grace empowers us. Grace is a free gift, but it allows us to work harder and do more. It's not for the idle.

Too many mistake grace being a free gift as menaing you don't have to do anything to get it, because, they reason, if you did then you are earning your salvation.

It doesn't have to be. It can be a free gift, but that gift empowers or enables us to accomplish more than we can on our own. If you look at it that way then it makes more sense.

He said:

Matthew 19:

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Mark 10:

27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Luke 18:

27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

These verses are saying the same thing as the yoke analogy. If man strives on his own he will fall short. If man strives seeking God, putting God first, then all things become possible to that man.

John 1:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Read that verse over and over, because it isn't explained any where in the Bible more clearly.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I don't really have much to contribute to this discussion but I just wanted to say I've got a minor man crush on PC for his effort to face the hordes* in a calm and eloquent manner.

* Not to disparage my fellows, but its easy to get frustrated when outnumbered.

I hope Prison Chaplain is not feeling attacked in this thread. I am feeling enlightened studying this subject. It is a wonderful and beautiful subject studying about how the grace of Christ works in our lives.

[Dravin]

I hope Prison Chaplain is not feeling attacked in this thread. I am feeling enlightened studying this subject. It is a wonderful and beautiful subject studying about how the grace of Christ works in our lives.

I didn't mean to imply he was. I just respect PC, he has a grace and faith that corrects many misconceptions I may have once been inclined to throw at other ministers. He's a credit to my brothers in Christ who I once upon a time would have accused as having the balance book at heart and not being a Shepard of Christ's Flock.

Not sure why, it's just struck me today. I'll stop with the PC love now and let the thread continue as usual.

[prisonchaplain]

We're all fine here. I'm seeing that sincere members in both our traditions arrive at the same conclusions--we work hard to please Christ, and we succeed through the power of his Spirit. Grace is a gift, but one that entails work. "Take up your cross and follow me," says our Sovereign.

That difference between our doctrines is real and important. This thread shows that. We cannot sweep it under the rug, nor sweet talk it away. However, the respect flows both ways. You give me leeway to ask, to offer my answers, and even occasionally to pontificate. I would expect nothing less than a multi-person response to a hot-button topic like grace/works.

[rameumptom]

I don't view "being converted" as "coming to know Jesus Christ. I believe the Book of Mormon teaches us that being converted to Jesus Christ is when we no longer desire to do evil and do good continually. It is when we put off the natural man and become a spiritual man.

I don't think one can become fully conveted to Jesus Christ in just one interview, or the known cases of such are exremely rare... even within the scriptures.

I believe you can come to know truth, like that Joseph Smith is a prophet, or that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. But, those things are very different than being converted.

And I think it happens more often than you think. Peter converted hundreds in "one interview" and they were baptized. I do agree there is a difference between gaining a testimony and conversion, as Christ told Peter "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." However, there are many instances in the scriptures of people changing quickly/overnight.

3 Ne 1, shows thousands converted upon seeing the star at Christ's birth. The brothers Nephi and Lehi converted hundreds within a prison. Lamoni was converted with one event. I could go on and on.

[Traveler]

And I think it happens more often than you think. Peter converted hundreds in "one interview" and they were baptized. I do agree there is a difference between gaining a testimony and conversion, as Christ told Peter "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." However, there are many instances in the scriptures of people changing quickly/overnight.

3 Ne 1, shows thousands converted upon seeing the star at Christ's birth. The brothers Nephi and Lehi converted hundreds within a prison. Lamoni was converted with one event. I could go on and on.

One of the interesting concepts about conversion is given by Jesus in what is called the parable of the sower. Because of the special insight given perhaps this should be called the parable of soils. In the parable the seed is always the same and stands for the “good word”, doctrine or teachings of G-d. The sower represents the servants of G-d. The soil represents the people of the world.

The great lesson we learn from this marvelous teaching direct from Christ is that in order for the seed to take root and grow and become strong enough to withstand the world that the soil must be prepared for the seed. Jesus gives more symbols to demonstrate how soil must be prepared. It must be prepared by a “weeding” process, a rock removal process and a softening of the soil process. It is also most important to note that in the parable, Jesus teaches that neither G-d nor the sower is responsible for the soil preparation process.

Other than being responsible for the soil; G-d provides all other needful elements for the seed to grow by his loving grace. I believe this is very telling and a simple resolution to doctrines of worthiness, earning grace, the free gift of grace and earning the gift of grace as it is applied to conversion. All that G-d provides is available to ever living soul – his grace is freely given to all. But despite some doctrines; the grace of G-d really is not sufficient in and of its self. If it was all seeds would grow and flourish in all conditions. According to the teaching of Jesus himself directly – the one additional element necessary beyond his grace is soil prepared and ready for the seed to take root and grow.

The Traveler

[Sali]

And I think it happens more often than you think. Peter converted hundreds in "one interview" and they were baptized. I do agree there is a difference between gaining a testimony and conversion, as Christ told Peter "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." However, there are many instances in the scriptures of people changing quickly/overnight.

3 Ne 1, shows thousands converted upon seeing the star at Christ's birth. The brothers Nephi and Lehi converted hundreds within a prison. Lamoni was converted with one event. I could go on and on.

I have to say my conversion was overnight, and my life changed instantly. All of a sudden I felt so different, I had such peace, I felt close to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I began to love others as I had never loved people before. And yes it was instantly. I also knew I needed to be baptised into the LDS Church, I just suddently knew it was right. I can't explain how powerful the feeling was, there are no words to explain it, and this is no way of expressing how this all happened. Yes conversion DOES happen overnight. The Spirit works in amazing ways.

[Sali]

Grace is so easy to misunderstand without modern revelation.

Grace empowers us. Grace is a free gift, but it allows us to work harder and do more. It's not for the idle.

Too many mistake grace being a free gift as menaing you don't have to do anything to get it, because, they reason, if you did then you are earning your salvation.

It doesn't have to be. It can be a free gift, but that gift empowers or enables us to accomplish more than we can on our own. If you look at it that way then it makes more sense.

.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.