Personal Conversion/salvation Experience

[Dr T]

Hello all,

This is my first question for the group. I’d like to find out about your conversion/salvation experience. For the record, my bias is that all people, no matter who they are always have: thoughts (always thinking), feelings/emotions, and actions/behaviors (always doing something). These things are all part of what makes us, us. We can’t avoid them. Therefore, I’m interested to see, if we can break down into percentages, how much each factor played a role in your own conversion/salvation experience.

Can each of you tell me, from your own personal experience, how much of your conversion/salvation experience was based on logic? Rationally analyzing scripture which, in your mind, led to no other option?

Emotion/guilt/shame/happy feelings/obligation, etc?

On behavior? To fit in? (“It was cool to become a believer-all my friends were!, etc.”)

Did it happen at a conference?

After listening to a dynamic speaker?

Did it fall in line with your upbringing (parental modeling)?

Other?

Was it 10% emotion, 80% logic, etc.

I’m also interested in the circumstances at the time of conversion that played a role in this for you? Where you fed up with the church you were formally attending? Etc.

How old were you?

I’m not looking for your testimony here. I want you to go deeper into the aspects listed above that played a roll in your conversion/salvation.

Thank you for your ideas.

Dr. T

[Ray]

I see. Can I see your charts when you’re finished?

how much of your conversion/salvation experience was based on logic? Rationally analyzing scripture which, in your mind, led to no other option?

I try to think as much as I can, so I’d say that logic was definitely a factor.

But I would not say that logic “converted” me, because I needed to know if my logic was true, and for that I knew no other option than to ask God.

Emotion/guilt/shame/happy feelings/obligation, etc?

Yep, put some of that in and mix it all up, because those were some factors too.

Guilt and shame for not always doing what I knew to be right, for instance.

Happy feelings knowing that I could be forgiven and allowed to live a happy life if the “story” was true.

Obligation to do what I then knew to be right, so I could be happy and live without guilt or shame.

On behavior? To fit in? (“It was cool to become a believer-all my friends were!, etc.”)

I was a member of “another” church before I joined “this” church, and my Dad and Granddad were both preachers in “that” church, so I did learn a lot about the gospel from “those people” around me and the other people I knew in my life.

But when I joined “this” church I didn’t know anyone who was a member, aside from the missionaries and the mother of the missionary who taught me, so “peer pressure” was not a factor for me.

Did it happen at a conference?

No, it happened over time as I learned more and received answers through prayer.

After listening to a dynamic speaker?

Heh, nope.

Did it fall in line with your upbringing (parental modeling)?

Part of it did, as I explained about my parents, but a lot of it was new territory to me.

Other?

Be more specific, doc.

Was it 10% emotion, 80% logic, etc.

Logic and emotion was applied 100%.

I’m also interested in the circumstances at the time of conversion that played a role in this for you? Where you fed up with the church you were formally attending? Etc.

No, I wasn’t fed up with my membership in the church I was in before joining this church, and in fact I was getting ready to become a preacher. Or actually, to get my “papers”, which would have enabled me to get a job and get paid for being a preacher. So to put it simply I guess you could say that I was simply ready to learn more.

How old were you?

28

[Dr T]

Thanks Ray,

I actually laughed out loud at your "see your charts" comment. No charts here, Sir.

That is what I was looking for. On the "Other" I can't be more specific. That is up to responders not me. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth on the emotions felt; those were just starting examples. I see what you were saying though about there being a mixture. What kind of preacher would that be Ray? What were your father and grandfathers reactions when you converted to LDS? With regard to prayer, by what means to you receive an answer? Is it auditory, a feeling, a "God works in mysterious way" and whatever turns out is the message that God has sent?

I really appreciate you're willingness to be open with me.

Dr. T

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

I was raised in a non-religious home – we attended a variety of Churches when I was very young, but my parents stopped that pretense by the time I was 6 or 7. All I knew of Christianity was that which is a cultural part of American society, and nothing more.

I had a friend in High School who was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I was only vaguely aware of his beliefs, but I had a generally good impression of him and his family. I remember “our group” planning get-togethers on Saturdays instead of Sundays to accommodate him. I was aware that he went to some kind of religious instruction before school every morning (Seminary) and was impressed by his dedication and willingness to make such a sacrifice as a teenager. He had higher standards than the rest of us – he didn’t drink, smoke or swear and he treated his dates with respect (almost too much – some girls thought he wasn’t interested because he didn’t push for the physical). He went away on a mission (again, I marveled because he had both the aptitude and the money to attend a big-name university and he passed that up for serving others in his prime education years).

I joined the US Air Force as a Cryptologic Linguist and went for training at the Presidio of Monterey in California. As it turns out, that career field is stacked fairly heavily with Mormons – apparently because of serving missions all over the world, young Latter-day Saints are prime targets for serving as linguists in the military. I was disgusted by the unrestrained behavior of many of my fellow dorm residents. But there was a group of students who seemed to have a lot of fun without getting into trouble and I gravitated toward them – turned out a lot of them were LDS.

I started dating an LDS man who was in the Army. When it got to a point that he thought the relationship might be more than light-hearted, he asked me to talk to the missionaries to learn more about his Church. As he explained it to me, Church was a very big part of his life and if I was even contemplating an enduring relationship with him, I needed to be comfortable with his beliefs. Was he setting me up to convert? Yes. But I know that he would have been OK with continuing to date me even if I had not joined the Church, as long as I was doing so with both eyes wide open.

Although looking back, I can clearly see the peer pressure to join, at the time I assiduously suppressed that aspect and tried to just learn about the Church and judge it by its own merits. It may be hard for some of you to imagine my religious ignorance going into this: at age 21 I knew some Bible stories, primarily because of an interest in classic literature, but I had zero understanding of doctrine. None of the things taught by the missionaries were contrary to my beliefs because I had none. In that respect, I was probably much like a child learning the Gospel in Primary. Because the fabric of the message was well-woven and attractive to me, it seemed innocuously genuine and I accepted it easily. It was like learning about molecular biology or calculus – indisputably true, just new territory for me.

I had two spiritual experiences which contributed to my decision to be baptized. Because my friend and the missionaries had taught me about the Holy Ghost, they were not a huge surprise to me. It’s rather as though they served as routine confirmation that all the puzzle pieces fit together and I would eventually see the big picture if I kept working at it. The first was an immediate answer to prayer – I was praying for snow (I was thinking of the mountains so I could go skiing, but all I said in the prayer was that I wanted it to snow) and the next morning there was an inch of snow on the ground outside my window and all over town. That took place in Sacramento, California (my parents’ house), and it was the only time it snowed there in the ten years I lived there/went back to visit as a young adult.

The other experience took place in a Relief Society meeting. I had been attending Sacrament meeting and occasionally Sunday School with my friend, but the thought of going into a room full of strange women without him by my side was too daunting. But eventually I decided to give it a try. My first Sunday in Relief Society I sat in the back row and tried to go unnoticed. Doesn’t work. As I know now from years of experience, they will ferret you out and make you stand up to introduce yourself. As it turns out, I was sitting by another visitor. She and I couldn’t have been more different from one another. She was an older woman, who was probably raised in the Church and had served in every calling imaginable. She was gentle and friendly and relaxed. She drew me out in quiet conversation and encouraged me in my efforts to investigate the Church. She gave me her address on a slip of paper and told me to write to her if I wanted. It’s hard to describe the feelings I had in her presence. She could not have been classed as charismatic. She was merely so comforting and reassuring that I loved her like a dear family friend. I trusted her counsel. When she said the words “you should be baptized,” my heart swelled, just as described in Alma 32:28. It was the first time I had ever felt that way about an idea – it’s the way I feel now when I need to bear my testimony. I almost couldn’t stay sitting down; the feeling of rightness and truth was so strong. Later that day I decided to join the Church.

My boyfriend was obviously pleased, but the best part for me was that I called up my LDS friend from High School and asked him to come to my baptism. I was literally the first non-family person he talked with after getting home from his mission – he had been in the house less than three hours when I called (and I had no idea of his status – hadn’t heard from him in a looong time, obviously, so I didn’t time it on purpose). He was overjoyed, and as he had not baptized a single person in two years, to this day he calls me “his one and only convert.” He was willing to drive four hours one way to attend and speak at my baptism. He and I have stayed in touch over the years – in fact, my husband and I will be visiting his family next week.

So what of my boyfriend? Well, I was in the Air Force and he was in the Army, so after language school, which was a mixed-service assignment, we went our separate ways. We said we would maintain the relationship long-distance, and maybe after my service commitment was up I could move to wherever he was stationed. But that never happened. At my next duty station I attended the Young Single Adult Family Home Evenings, and ended up meeting, falling in love with, and marrying my husband. I have kept tabs on him, mostly through his sister, who became a good friend. I will always thank him for asking me to hear the missionary discussions.

Over the years, I have been surprised at the challenges to my faith. A testimony can come suddenly, or it can grow slowly as you live and experience joy in the Gospel. And if unused, a testimony can dim. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have varying strengths of testimony concerning a myriad of doctrinal points. Any one person will have a deeper understanding and commitment to some principles than others.

As a rough guesstimate, I would say that my overall level or strength of testimony was only about 3% of what it is now when I was baptized. It has developed over more than 16 years, and I expect it will continue to grow. Countless experiences, both physical and metaphysical have contributed to this growth. My “conversion” may seem to have taken place all at once, long ago, but I see it as a continual process.

At baptism, I think I was 30% peer pressure / 30% emotion (testimony, spiritual manifestation) / 40% logic (cohesive doctrine). What keeps me at Church now? 70% emotion (faith, testimony) / 10% logic (doctrine backed up by research) / 20% other (habit, comfort, desire for my children to be raised with these values and standards).

- edited for spelling and to break up paragraphs to make it more readable -

[prisonchaplain]

I thought I'd just throw in an interesting, if dated statistic, that may fit into Dr. T's string here: roughly 85% of those who convert to Christianity do so between the ages of 8-14.

Any thoughts on this?

[pushka]

That's an interesting point PC, because I was 14 when I first attended the LDS church, and was 13 when I first began reading about it, in The Osmonds monthly magazine and decided that the things I was doing in my life at that time were not good for me spiritually or physically...drinking, swearing etc. I found it very easy to move into the LDS lifestyle as I think I needed some guidance at that time to make myself healthy, and also I was coming from a very troubled home, my dad was drinking heavily and beating my mum so the LDS 'families are forever' and families don't have to beat up on each other really appealed to me.

I just started to attend the church without having missionaries call at my house first, then received some missionary lessons as well as attending MIA and all Sunday meetings for my age group. I studied at Seminary classes for 1 year and tried to use logic to rethink my RC beliefs and turn them into LDS beliefs. I was almost expelled from my RC school for my efforts and had weekly talks with my priest for 6 weeks, in which we discussed mormon doctrine and Catholic doctrine.

I had no peer pressure to attend church, my parents were furious when they found out I was attending, but still allowed me to go as they knew that the lifestyle was okay, they were just overly concerned that I would disappear to Utah when I left school, which I was asked about when I was almost ready to leave college, but turned down in favour of remaining with my family.

As I've explained before, when I stopped attending the LDS church I was questioning one or two aspects of it, but still thought that if I was to return to any church that would be it. Yes I was disillusioned with the Masses that I had been attending as there didn't seem to be enough participation on the part of the congregation...everything was remote from me and I didn't even realise that the Homily was just the priest talking in his own way about applying the gospel to our lives! I've since been back to the RC church mass and found that the local priest is much better at delivering the gospel and his homilies, and was almost persuaded to renew my 'vows' and become a full time RC member a couple of years ago. As I read about mormonism since 2001, I began to realise that I didn't have a testimony of its truth anymore, which is why I haven't returned to it.

I hope that answers most of your questions Dr. T.

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

I thought I'd just throw in an interesting, if dated statistic, that may fit into Dr. T's string here: roughly 85% of those who convert to Christianity do so between the ages of 8-14.

I have heard something similar to that, PC.

Another stat often quoted among Latter-day Saints is that most adult converts to the Church have had two or more long-term, positive associations with a member of the Church before being taught by the missionaries. The reason for quoting this seems to be 1) to make people mindful that they may be watched, and by extension, the Church is being judged, by a coworker, neighbor or friend from the gym and 2) to cheer someone up when they have done their best to bring someone to the light of the Gospel, but been unsucessful (as in, you may be one of their first contacts with the Church - who knows? Maybe five years from now, they will be ready and you will have helped lay the foundation for their conversion)

[Dr T]

mom of jcchlsm,

Well done! That is exactly what I am looking for. I appreciate the time you put into your response and I thank you for explaining your background to me. A also love how you broke it down into percentages at different times of development. Also, I thank you for joining the military (in whatever function that may have been). My wife was born in Fort Ord by the way.

Thanks

Dr. T

[Ray]

What kind of preacher would that be Ray?

Heh, what “kind” of preacher? The kind that “preaches” in front at a pulpit for 20-30 minutes before waiting to see if anybody comes to the front to either get baptized or ask for his/her help on other issues. Does that answer your question?

And btw, if you meant to ask what they preach or preached about, it would be easier to explain it as what they and other people in a group or sect called the ‘Church of Christ’ believe.

What were your father and grandfathers reactions when you converted to LDS?

My Granddad had already died, but my Dad and Grandmother were not well pleased. In fact, my Dad actually disowned me saying that he no longer considered me to be his son, but after a while he came around a bit and we still see each other on occasion… although he has never withdrawn that statement… but for which I have forgiven him anyway.

With regard to prayer, by what means do you receive an answer? Is it auditory, a feeling, a "God works in mysterious way" and whatever turns out is the message that God has sent?

I receive inspiration and guidance to help me feel and think what is right. For instance, when I asked God about whether or not the Book of Mormon was true, or is true, after reading some of it, of course, He helped me to feel and think that the words were true in the same way I know anything is true, by feeling as well as by thinking.

And btw, this isn’t something strange or something that is limited to only “religious” or “spiritual” applications, because we all learn what is right, or true, by learning directly from God.

For instance, when you studied to learn something in college, or when you read any other book, I’m sure you thought and felt that what you were learning was right before you totally accepted those ideas. And as long as you didn’t simply accept what someone else told you, and you learned what you believe is the truth, you learned that truth directly from God, because by no other way could you "know" it.

Or in other words, a “prayer” doesn’t have to be formal or in a formal position before God will hear you and answer you, because as long as you are Looking for guidance about what is right, while doing all that you can to Find it, to embrace it, God will help you, because He loves you… and me, and everybody else on this Earth.

And btw, there are some people who simply absorb whatever a teacher or preacher or author of a book tells them without giving it any thought at all, so I’m not suggesting that you can learn the truth by simply accepting what other people tell you.

I really appreciate you're willingness to be open with me.

You’re welcome, but keep looking for guidance because God is there for you too.

[Dr T]

Hello Ray,

When asking about what type of preacher, I ought to have been more clear, sorry. I meant a preacher of which denomination/religion. I got my answer. Church of Christ. Was it the World Wide Church of Christ? The United Church of Christ? Boston Church of Christ? Other? Just curious...

I'm sorry to hear that you experienced that with your father.

When asked about the means by which you receive answers to prayer you said,

I receive inspiration and guidance to help me feel and think what is right. For instance, when I asked God about whether or not the Book of Mormon was true, or is true, after reading some of it, of course, He helped me to feel and think that the words were true in the same way I know anything is true, by feeling as well as by thinking.

What would you say to people who have read the BOM, prayed (sincerely) and did not get the same acknowledgement? Now I'm talking about someone who truly had a seeking heart. Someone who grew up in the church and still didn't get that burning in the bosom. What if they prayed about the Koran and got that same feeling? What if they prayed about the Gita, or about The Book of Satan? I'm guessing many of these people get the feeling and thoughts that their religion is true too. What would you say to them?

I'm really not trying to be snide here (although I fear it will be taken that way). I really want to know, did you pray for understanding about everything, so as to feel that it was true? For example, did you pray about gravity? Did you pray about 2+2=4?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Dr T]

Hello Jason,

I initially addressed this to the LDS on this board so as to learn about their experience becoming a member. I'm also interested in the converstion away from the LDS church. Can you please answer my OP from your own experience?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Dr T]

Hi shanstress70,

Same question for you. Can you please share?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Dr. T: What would you say to people who have read the BOM, prayed (sincerely) and did not get the same acknowledgement? Now I'm talking about someone who truly had a seeking heart. Someone who grew up in the church and still didn't get that burning in the bosom.

I’d either tell them they did not get an answer from God yet, while encouraging them to keep trying, or I would try to help them understand how God communicates with us so they will recognize it when they do.

Dr. T: What if they prayed about the Koran and got that same feeling?

There are many issues associated with the Koran which are true, and God will testify about the truth of those things, so I would ask them for particulars about what God assured them to be true.

Dr. T: What if they prayed about the Gita, or about The Book of Satan?

Heh, even Satan tells half-truths, or some truths that are mixed with lies, so again I would ask them for particulars about what God assured them to be true.

And btw, God knows Satan, so God can assure someone of the truth about Satan after they read some information about him in a Book.

Dr. T: I'm guessing many of these people get the feeling and thoughts that their religion is true too. What would you say to them?

I would say that truth can be found anywhere and everywhere as long as we have the help of God, so don’t reject some more information simply because a book doesn’t seem to have a nice cover.

Dr. T: I'm really not trying to be snide here (although I fear it will be taken that way). I really want to know, did you pray for understanding about everything, so as to feel that it was true? For example, did you pray about gravity? Did you pray about 2+2=4?

Heh, I can’t remember that far back, but I’m pretty sure I did, because to believe and know the truth of things I have to “see” them for myself… not necessarily with my “physical” eyes, but with the help of God.

Or in other words, although I can’t remember this particular instance, I’m pretty sure that when someone first told me “2 + 2 = 4” I didn't casually say "okay" and then automatically believe it without putting any more thought into it. Or in other words, I’m pretty sure there was an “AH HA!!!” moment, when I could “see” the “light”, and at that moment when I knew that truth I had received some "help" from God.

Like I said, prayer doesn’t have to be given in a certain position and with certain words which are normally associated with a “formal” prayer, because God can always hear us when we are questioning some ideas. But while on that point, I will also say that it does show more respect for God when we talk to Him on our knees with our head bowed, to show humility and respect, although that in itself won’t do anything because God can “see” what is in our "heart".

[Dr T]

Any more responses (LDS or Non-LDS)?

Thanks

[shanstress70]

I was somewhat like Mom_of_j, in that I didn't have much religious upbringing. My mom and her side of the family were Catholic, but quite inactive. When I was very young, my family attended a UCC, but that didn't last very long. I occasionally attended church with my friends growing up, but none ever 'stuck'.

Then I met my now-husband, who was LDS... we worked together. He didn't pressure me to join, as I was dating someone else anyway, who lived in another state. But we started hanging out and talking about his religion. I got to know his family, who I totally thought were great. Eventually, I broke it off with the other guy and we started dating. There was no pressure for me to join, although now I don't know if he would have married me if I didn't. I took the discussions and everything sounded great. As Mom said, I didn't have many religious beliefs for the LDS beliefs to contradict. So, why not? I never really felt the 'burning in the bosom', but I didn't have a problem with anything either. I didn't really frequent the internet at this time, so it's not like it would be now, when I would have googled Mormonism and been exposed to all the things that I consider problems. I didn't even know about the polygamy issue. I only knew about the positive aspects of it. So I was baptised, and we were married a few months later.

Soon after joining though, I learned about 'the meat', as opposed to just 'the milk'. I kept finding out more and more things that didn't sit well with me. The polygamy issue is one that I could never get any satisfactory answers for (as is apparent by my other posts!). Then came more and more issues, including the kicker, when it was time for my son's blessing and I wasn't allowed to hold my child while he was blessed - only men were allowed. I had certainly never heard this before! I sat in the congregation barely even able to see, and cried.

My husband and I explored many of these issues together (there is a huge list that I won't get into here, as most of you are aware of them), and both of us came to the same conclusion... that the LDS church was not true.

So now, I am searching, once again. I really want to raise my son with basic Christian beliefs, but want an open-minded church where my own individual beliefs that I have since come to realize won't be squashed. I may have found this in the Episcopal Church, but need to visit a few more times before I make up my mind.

Now to your specific questions:

Can each of you tell me, from your own personal experience, how much of your conversion/salvation experience was based on logic? Rationally analyzing scripture which, in your mind, led to no other option? Very little, although I'm not sure I can put a percentage on it.

Emotion/guilt/shame/happy feelings/obligation, etc? Happy feelings in the beginning, and seeing that most Mormon families weren't outwardly disfunctional, the way my family was. Emotion, in that I was falling in love with my now-husband when I went through the conversion.

On behavior? To fit in? (“It was cool to become a believer-all my friends were!, etc.”) Nope

Did it happen at a conference? Nope

After listening to a dynamic speaker? Nope

Did it fall in line with your upbringing (parental modeling)? Nope

Other?

Was it 10% emotion, 80% logic, etc. Perhaps 5% logic, 95% emotion

I’m also interested in the circumstances at the time of conversion that played a role in this for you? Where you fed up with the church you were formally attending? Etc. Answered above

How old were you? 27

[prisonchaplain]

Hello all,

This is my first question for the group. I’d like to find out about your conversion/salvation experience. For the record, my bias is that all people, no matter who they are always have: thoughts (always thinking), feelings/emotions, and actions/behaviors (always doing something). These things are all part of what makes us, us. We can’t avoid them. Therefore, I’m interested to see, if we can break down into percentages, how much each factor played a role in your own conversion/salvation experience.

I waited to put my experience in this string, because I had thought you were looking for LDS-specific stories. However, you added the open-ended "non-LDS" to your latest inquiry, so here I go!

Can each of you tell me, from your own personal experience, how much of your conversion/salvation experience was based on logic? Rationally analyzing scripture which, in your mind, led to no other option?

I was a 10-year old responding to the Sunday School teacher's invitation to ask Jesus into our hearts, so he'd forgive our sins. Kids know they are sinners. Parents, teachers, siblings, and friends tell them so all the time. The stories of Jesus rang true to me, and my third week in, I raised my hand and prayed the prayer. So, it was mostly logic, but a child's logic. BTW, my parents were not church-goers. I was a "bus ministry kid."

Emotion/guilt/shame/happy feelings/obligation, etc?

I don't remember being terribly emotional, though I was happy with my decision. I knew I was a sinner, and so guilt was there--but not an emotionally gripping guilt.

On behavior? To fit in? (“It was cool to become a believer-all my friends were!, etc.”)

No, the youth programs in my church were weak, and I had no Christian friends at school. Actually hung out with some Jehovah's Witnesses--and never did become one of them.

Did it happen at a conference? After listening to a dynamic speaker? Did it fall in line with your upbringing (parental modeling)? Other?

Sunday School, not very dynamic, not in line with my parents at all.

Was it 10% emotion, 80% logic, etc.

Maybe 10-15% emotion, 85% logic.

I’m also interested in the circumstances at the time of conversion that played a role in this for you? Where you fed up with the church you were formally attending? Etc. How old were you?

I was 10, and did not attend any church. I was a pretty satisfied kid, though I would later discover my family had some serious problems. At the time, I was happy-go-lucky, and self-satisfied. The Church and the invitation to accept Christ just seemed logical and right. I never turned back. Later I would encounter other religions--especially JWs in my teens--but never questioned Jesus as the Truth and the Way.

[Dr T]

Thank you so much Shan70. I really enjoyed reading your ideas on this. I appreciate your honest evaluation and talking about the "milk vs. meat" issue.

Appreciating your sharing,

Dr. T

P.C.,

Thank you, sir, for answering. Please know that any questions I have on this board is open to all (LDS or not). Like I said, I am learning-if you have something to add-please do so. If it differs from LDS beliefs, again, let me know. That's how we learn. Your post made me curious as to where you were brought up. It sounded like a big JW population. Where was that?

Thanks again,

Dr. T

[shanstress70]

I want to add one more thing that I have 'discovered' since exploring my spirituality. I strongly believe in God. I also believe in Christianity, although I'm not 100% sure of it, as no one is because I don't believe we will ever have concrete scientific evidence - it's all about faith.

I believe in a kind, compassionate God, who will not destroy someone for eternity because they are not Christian. I believe that heaven will be full of people of all different religions and ways of life, and that there will be no one in greater 'levels' of heaven. IMO, God would not be the loving Father figure that I imagine if He were to not allow one of his children into heaven just because they grew up in a Muslim family, hearing that Christianity is wrong. And just because someone is more logic-driven and happen to be an atheist, would they be sent to hell even though they've devoted their life to humanistic causes? I don't think so.

I know that some believe it is a cop-out to have beliefs such as mine, but at this point, I could really care less. I think that in order to have everlasting life with God, you need to be a good person and try to help people - basically live the golden rule. It bewilders me how all these religions try to make it so complicated. No matter how much we study, no one will ever know until we die, what the truth is. So just, BE NICE! And live life with no regrets just in case we're all wrong.

As far as those who say that they know the truth because God has answered their questions and told them the truth, I have two things to say...

1- Why hasn't He ever told me with so much of my asking, AND listening?

2- Why do people of other faiths think He has told them that their way is true? Some would say it's Satan talking, but why does that apply to, say, the Hindu religion and not to Chrisianity - Catholicism or Mormonism?

[Dr T]

Hey Shan70,

You do sound conflicted to me. You say you believe in Christianity but you have a hard time with its tenants. You sound like someone from the Unity church or the new age movement. The equifinality idea, "everyone will end up in the same place, we're all just on different roads to get there." You have a hard time seeing God as a benevolent God if He institutes a penalty to His creation.

Your last post makes me think of Pascal's Wager. Have you read any of that? I don't take that as a proof of God's existence (because it's not-in my book anyway) but I think it's an interesting concept for you to explore (if you want).

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Dr T]

Hello Ross,

Thanks for the PM. This would be a good place to start.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[shanstress70]

Hey Shan70,

You do sound conflicted to me. You say you believe in Christianity but you have a hard time with its tenants. You sound like someone from the Unity church or the new age movement. The equifinality idea, "everyone will end up in the same place, we're all just on different roads to get there." You have a hard time seeing God as a benevolent God if He institutes a penalty to His creation.

Your last post makes me think of Pascal's Wager. Have you read any of that? I don't take that as a proof of God's existence (because it's not-in my book anyway) but I think it's an interesting concept for you to explore (if you want).

Thanks,

Dr. T

I AM conflicted... religion is conflicting. I don't believe everything that is in the Bible, as it has been translated by men who can sometimes have their own agenda. It's all a guessing game. I choose Christianity because that is what I'm most familiar with, and what makes the most sense to me. I do believe that Jesus was the son of God, and was our savior, but I do not know that for a fact.

As far as God being good if He penalizes those who do not believe, why would He do that? Why would someone so powerful be so concerned with whether or not someone believes in Him? I think He would love them either way... that's how a Father works. Why does He need the glory? Not saying He doesn't deserve it, because I think He does, and I give it to Him. But if someone doesn't believe in Him, or in his son, I don't think He would have them perish. That sounds like a power hungry god to me... I don't see Him that way.

And the over-asked question... is Ghandi, who was a Hindu, in Heaven? I believe so. (And this question isn't asked to the LDS here, who believe that he had the chance to be baptized after his death.)

I will keep asking and keep listening, and hopefully one day I'll get the answer. Until then, I just have to do the best I can do, and live my life the best I can.

Thanks for the reading suggestion. I do know a bit about Pascal's Wager, but will read more about it.

[prisonchaplain]

Thank you, sir, for answering. Please know that any questions I have on this board is open to all (LDS or not). Like I said, I am learning-if you have something to add-please do so. If it differs from LDS beliefs, again, let me know. That's how we learn. Your post made me curious as to where you were brought up. It sounded like a big JW population. Where was that?

Thanks again,

Dr. T

Okay, will do. I grew up in southwest Seattle--not necessarily a heavy JW area--just that my circle of friends included several who were. Perhaps it's because I was religiously-centered and they were too--and Seattle is strongly secular. In fact, Seattle-Tacoma sees an average of 2-3% who attend regular religious meetings of any kind (compared with Springfield, MO where it's closer to 80%). A 2000 poll that was quite extensive, found that 15% are Catholic, 8% evangelical, 7% mainline, 3% other religions. That leaves 67% unaffiliated.

[pushka]

I want to add one more thing that I have 'discovered' since exploring my spirituality. I strongly believe in God. I also believe in Christianity, although I'm not 100% sure of it, as no one is because I don't believe we will ever have concrete scientific evidence - it's all about faith.

I believe in a kind, compassionate God, who will not destroy someone for eternity because they are not Christian. I believe that heaven will be full of people of all different religions and ways of life, and that there will be no one in greater 'levels' of heaven. IMO, God would not be the loving Father figure that I imagine if He were to not allow one of his children into heaven just because they grew up in a Muslim family, hearing that Christianity is wrong. And just because someone is more logic-driven and happen to be an atheist, would they be sent to hell even though they've devoted their life to humanistic causes? I don't think so.

I know that some believe it is a cop-out to have beliefs such as mine, but at this point, I could really care less. I think that in order to have everlasting life with God, you need to be a good person and try to help people - basically live the golden rule. It bewilders me how all these religions try to make it so complicated. No matter how much we study, no one will ever know until we die, what the truth is. So just, BE NICE! And live life with no regrets just in case we're all wrong.

As far as those who say that they know the truth because God has answered their questions and told them the truth, I have two things to say...

1- Why hasn't He ever told me with so much of my asking, AND listening?

2- Why do people of other faiths think He has told them that their way is true? Some would say it's Satan talking, but why does that apply to, say, the Hindu religion and not to Chrisianity - Catholicism or Mormonism?

Shanstress70, you can probably tell by now that I'm pretty much an agnostic. If I were to believe fully in God/Christ I would believe in Him in the same way that you do now...

[shanstress70]

It's nice to know that someone doesn't think I'm so far out there! :)

[kriskriechel]

I was raised LDS and went to church every Sunday and all church activities. When I was 15 I moved to my dad's. He is not LDS and I was not made to go to church. He said that he would take me and pick me up if I wanted to go but it was my choice. Enjoyed many more liberties at my dad's house and took advantage of many of them.

When I was 19 I joined the Air Force. During basic training I went to Sunday services with friends. Just about everbody went to chuch in basic. Got out from under the TIs and got to hang out with your friends. Went to one LDS service when my sister and BIL come down my last weekend.

At my first base I had two instances that I felt were little nudges. I was stationed in Iceland. I was 19, single, and on my own. Needless to say, I had a blast. Partied big time. Mostly just because I could. Knew that the things I was doing were wrong, but I did a lot of them just because I could. Bad days were few and far between for me. Had lots of fun. There were two really bad days for me. Just wanted to go back to my dorm room and mope all night. On both occasions I stopped by the mail room. The first time there was a letter from a man who was like a second father to me when my parents split up. He was our bishop for awhile and he baptized me. The letter was full of things that I really needed at that moment. The second time there was package from my bishop back in Ohio. It was the serviceman's edition of the scriptures.

I started going back to church after my first son was born. But it was very sporadic. I went on and off for about 10+ years. Its not that I didn't believe anymore, it was just easier as a single parent to stay home.

Then, almost 3 years ago I got my biggest nudge. My daughter was born. She had some complications and was very sick. They did not think that she would live through the first night. She held on but barely. My first thought was that she needed a blessing. But my husband is not a member of the church. And did not want to seem like I was pushing my beliefs on him. But he said it was okay with him. She was born on Sunday and I finally brought myself to ask him on Wednesday. We called the chaplin's office on base (he's AF). Asked if there was an LDS chaplin assigned to the base and explained why we were asking. The guy who answered the phone said no but that he was LDS and held the priesthood and could make a couple of calls and find another priesthood holder and be at the hospital within an hour. This might not seem too odd to many but it was for me becuase I knew for a fact that very few LDS members in the Air Force go into the chapel services career field. You must interview for the career field. I interviewed for it during basic training and I was told that they really do not accept many LDS members because you have to work a lot of Sundays. So the chance that the person who answered the phone would be LDS was very slim. They got to the hospital within the hour. Gave her a blessing. She made that crucial turn within 48 hours. And she started to respond to treatment so quickly that it amazed the doctors. They thought she would be in the hospital for a couple of months. She was out in 2 weeks. You cannot tell that she was so sick except for a tiny scar under her arm from a chest tube. This really made me think. Was my next nudge going to have be a 2X4 ? This one practically was. After much prayer and thought, I spoke to my husband and I started going back to church with my kids. My son now holds the priesthood. Will be ordained a Priest in a couple of weeks. He attends seminary and says he wants to go on a mission and attend BYU or SVU. My daughter will be 3 in May and once she's dressed for church she is nagging my son and I to get out the door.

Last summer also had some moments. Ended up on a dirt road trying to get to the Willie Handcart Rescue sight. It had rained a little bit and roads were muddy. Got to the sight and could decide to whether to turn around and come back the way we came or to just keep going. We prayed about it. Had my mom, son, and daughter with me. We prayed to know which way to go and if we got stuck in the mud that He would send somebody to help us, hopefully a priesthood holder. Within minutes of saying "Amen", a school bus came down the road full of LDS members. And we were told which way to go. Still ended up on a hill with a steep drop to the right and the back end of my van fishtailing. I was about to freak out. Stayed to the left away from the drop off. I was sooo scared. We prayed again. For safety and if we got stuck, that He would send somebody, hopefully a priesthood holder. Got around the bend and was heading thankfully downhill but still had a sharp drop off to the right and slippery mud. Two cars started up the road towards us. I froze. Did not want to move to the right. Too scared. My mom got out to go talk to them. The first guy had on a BYU T-shirt. Both drivers of the cars were LDS priesthood holders. Reassured me, agreed to pass me on my right and told me that we were almost out of there.

These were my moments of conversion. My ages were 20, 34, and 36. Many feel that because I was raised in the church and baptized as a child I do not need to be converted. No, I do not need to convert religion wise but I needed a conversion of the heart. Whether we were born into the church or not we all need that conversion of the heart.