Marrital Issues

[Jatt]

Thanks for the advise.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Jatt

[Jatt]

I may have put my rant thread in the wrong section, if it needs to be moved here and this thread deleted that's alright. I was unsure where to put it.

Click Here for my wall of text

Edited November 29, 2010 by Dravin

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Jatt.

What sort of response were you looking for? (I see two question marks in your posts, neither of them are really coming from a question...)

[Dravin]

Just letting you know that I merged your threads.

[John11111]

Greatly sympathize for you I have been going through a similar situation albeit my wife had an affair among other things. My story is on here as well and this is a great place to come for advice and support!

Probably one of the biggest helps in understanding my wife has been the book "His Needs Her Needs" me and my wife have been reading a chapter a night and the things we have gotten out of it by way of understanding eachother and our needs has been invaluable. I thought I had been doing everything I could as well but I was mistaken there is a lot I had never even thought of or thought was important.

Dont know if I can quite qualify for more advice then that as I have come here myself for help but know you have our support and prayers.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I second the motion about His Needs Her Needs. It saved my marriage. Go to Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice and download the Emotional Needs Questionnaire, and find out what each othr's needs are. Try meeting her needs as best you can, upping the effort you put into it.

It sounds like you have a need for recreational companionship -- one of the marriagebujilders needs. If your wife is interested in the happiness of your marriage, then she might look at your requests to do fun things together differently.

Regarding the sex -- I have no easy answers. My wife had vaginismus for 10 years and our story is a lot like yours now even though she's over the problem mentally. One thing is for sure, when wives don't meet the sexual needs of their husbands, it's very hard on the husband. And I think it can encourage MB and possibly PA when the man has to figure out how to meet those needs on his own.

One thing Harley says (the marriage builders person) is that when spouses are meeting each other's needs, then sexuality is rarely a problem except in certain disorders. So, try reading his book His Needs Her Needs and his other one -- Love Busters. Work through the questionnaire and learn about each others needs, and then try to meet them. YOu migth see a difference.

[sweetiepie]

Just a look into what maybe your wife may be feeling, from experience: she may be resentful, well, she probably is. Women feel that they are no longer desirable to their husband's once they start the p and mb on their own. Its like, well, what does he need me for? or I can't compete with the unrealistic women and sex on the internet. It isn't correct, but its how we feel.

Also, from experience, once we feel unattractive about ourselves, or lose our sense of feeling sexy, the last thing we want is you touching us or anything close to intimate. Maybe she feels that when you do cuddle, or massage, that you in some way are hoping it leads to sex? That may be why she pulls away.

This is not something you can change, but she will have to go through forgiveness and healing on her own. I know that I had to ask the Lord to take away my hurt and pain, because I could not, and I was pushing my husband away. I woke up the next day, and the hurt and anger was gone. I even tried to get it back! But His atonement took that away for me, because I could not. Its a process, be patient, and I would maybe hold off on the sex for a while and just keep non sexual touching while you both are working through your pa.

[JudoMinja]

I would suggest watching the movie Fireproof for starters. What you are going through sounds an awful lot like the plot of that movie. Then, attempt the Fireproof challenge.

You cannot change your wife. You can only change yourself. It can certainly be hard when you feel your needs are being unsatisfied and your partner appears to be the one being selfish to act selflessly, but it is possible. Continue doing all those things you are already doing to better yourself. Don't give up. No matter what your wife decides to do, you will be a better person.

As far as the sex goes, if she is ever going to be a full participant, she needs to have a desire for it for herself. From what you've described, it sounds like she does not enjoy sex and only gives in when she feels she "needs" to do it to satisfy you. The fact that it was initially painful for her means it is difficult for her to relax for sex. Typically, the first time or two may be painful for the woman, but after that it is supposed to get better. If it never got better for her, it is because she was unable to relax and enjoy it, which would certainly feed her continued lack of desire.

She needs to feel desirable. She needs to feel wanted. She needs to feel loved. But equal to that- she needs to feel desire for you. She needs to feel want for you. She needs to feel love for you. She is the one in control of her feelings. Not you. As long as you are doing everything you can to promote these feelings, the rest is up to her. The difficulties she is giving you and her lack of passion for anything suggest she is dealing with depression. If it is bad enough that she needs counseling and treatment, nothing you do will help her feel better about herself.

Lastly, I know from personal experience how difficult it can be, but the only other big improvement I can see from what you've posted that you could make to help her is to completely cast off your addictions. It is possible that it is your addictions that are the cause of the wedge between you. It is of course a two way street and she is completely responsible for her own behavior, but if the addiction is the source of the wedge, you need to get rid of the source. Give up the PA and MB completely and prove to her you do not need it. You will probably have to go without satisfaction for some time before she realizes that you will not turn back to old habits in order to satisfy yourself when she is unwilling. But if you can completely regain self-mastery, she will see that SHE is the one you turn to for the fulfillment of your desires, and this may be all the self-esteem boost she needs to open back up to you.

[MorningStar]

When men use pornography, it doesn't just offend your wife as your wife. It offends her as a woman. She doesn't want to be your object and for you to say, "Hey, wanna slap my behind?", it's not especially romantic. OK, you complimented her on the way she looks in her sweats. Are you trying to prove that she's more attractive than porn stars or something? She needs to know that you value her for other things besides opportunities for sex. For women, sex isn't about bum slapping. It's supposed to be a connection on a physical, emotional, and spiritual level. Speaking for myself, I don't want it to be a "dirty" experience or what the world has made it. She doesn't want you to bring the porn into your relationship. It sounds like it has influenced you more than you realize and it's no wonder she's put off. Not looking at porn is just part of the solution. A change of heart and attitude is what you need. If my husband asked me to "relieve" him, that would hurt me. LDS men are expected to have self-control before marriage. Self-control doesn't end at marriage. Our bishop told us that we shouldn't get married if we didn't think we could be faithful if one of us were to become disabled and unable to have sex. We needed to love each other in other ways that didn't involve sex.

[Guest mirancs8]

You might want to spend a bit more time looking at yourself rather then your wife's faults. Women who are in relationships with men who have MA or PA definately find a wedge in their relationship. Maybe not all but many do. When you look to MA or PA to gratify your sexual desires it sends the message to your wife that you have no need for intimacy from her. It sends a very clear message to her that she's not enough to satisfy you. I think you need to put more weight to your addictions and how they have contributed to the wedge in your marriage.

Sure you see wives on here working it through with their husbands but it takes 2 willing partners to do that. You both have to be willing to work through it together. That takes not only meeting with your Bishop together but also lots of couples therapy. There are a lot of raw emotions underneath this all and you haven't even gotten to it. Women are full of emotions and once they start to internalize them and stop talking... just wait there will be an explosion at some point. It's all boiling underneath the surface and if you don't both get a handle on it it will only get worse over time.

I'm sure she may have a very different perspective on the relationship then you... actually I'm sure she does. How you are seeing things in your relationship can be drastically different then how she's seeing it. Would I be safe in saying communication isn't working out so well in the relationship between you and her?

Sure you can make your marriage work, but you both have lots of work to do. Let me give you advice from a woman who lived many years with someone who was addicted to MA and PA. Don't overdo the "playing super husband" role. She knows you very well and it all just turns her off you know why? Because it makes you look that much more guilty. Even if you are not guilty of anything you still look guilty of something. Take this for what it's worth but you don't want to act desperate because frankly she sees straight through all of it. It will start to actually have the oposite effect and turn off her sexual desire for you even more. Right now I think I'd be safe saying she's really angry at you but hasn't found a way to get it out.

You both should seriously seek couples therapy so you can take an honest go at it. There is nothing more important then your marriage and it's a small investment for such an important person in your life... your eternal mate.

[sweetiepie]

When men use pornography, it doesn't just offend your wife as your wife. It offends her as a woman. She doesn't want to be your object and for you to say, "Hey, wanna slap my behind?", it's not especially romantic. OK, you complimented her on the way she looks in her sweats. Are you trying to prove that she's more attractive than porn stars or something?

I just had to agree and add that most women hate it when their husbands walk by them and grab their boobs and butt. They think they are being affectionate, but we think, I am not a toy! :)

We want cuddle time that does not have to be sexual...just intimate. But this may take some time for your wife to be ready for that.

[JudoMinja]

The comments from others have more great advice that got me thinking about something else that could help you out-

Sex will never be enjoyable for her if she feels that she is only being used. Your behavior probably makes her feel that you see her as nothing more than a sex object. Your problem is much bigger than her lack of desire for sex. The "brick wall" you are feeling is a barrier in your entire relationship. She needs to feel that you love her for HER, not for sex. Give her a massage WITHOUT it ending in sex. Cuddle with her WITHOUT groping her. Give her a kiss WITHOUT any stipulations. Tell her she is beautiful WITHOUT objectifying her. She will get much more fulfillment out of physical touch and encouraging words that do not lead to sex.

If you only want to fix the lack of sex, that barrier will never come down. You need to be willing to go without sex. SHE needs to be your focus. She needs to be more important to you than the fulfillment of your desires. For many men, if things are okay in the bedroom things are okay everywhere else, but women work in the opposite direction. Things need to be okay everywhere else before they will be okay in the bedroom.

If you are willing, you could try telling her that you will go celibate until she is happy again. Show her that you are willing to sacrifice sex for her happiness and then ask her what you can do for her. If she says nothing that just means she isn't ready to talk to you. She doesn't feel she can confide in you, because she does not trust you with her feelings. This is the result of feeling objectified. Prove that you care about her feelings, and everything will start coming together.

[Jatt]

First of all, thanks to everyone for your comments and support, I appreciate the insight you bring. Honestly, some of it surprised me... thanks again!

We watched Fireproof a while back, maybe two years ago. When I got the book I realized that I already do 99% of that book on a daily basis. I asked my wife to take a look at it and her first comment was... "I don't necessarily believe that book. It's not printed by the church."

I looked into both books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters," they both look like great books and they should arrive shortly. What I am worried about is my wife's willingness to try the advice in these books.

About casting off my addictions. I installed Net Nanny... it was pure garbage. Nothing would be blocked and it seemed to slow down my computers. I came across a program called K9 Web Protection. I recommend this program be installed on every computer standard. It doesn't slow down your PC, is very hard to get around, and blocks everything.

I have changed every aspect of daily life, not just the minimal changes to combat PA/MB, with the hopes that if only some of the changes stick they will be enough. So far my wife and bishop have been impressed at how fast the changes have taken place. I am proud of what I have accomplished so far. I participate in those stake meetings about addiction recovery also. Most of the changes have stuck and for the most part the addictions have stopped. I tell my wife when I am having particularly hard times.

I have more to post but short on time. I may post more later.

[MorningStar]

I just had to agree and add that most women hate it when their husbands walk by them and grab their boobs and butt. They think they are being affectionate, but we think, I am not a toy! :)

We want cuddle time that does not have to be sexual...just intimate. But this may take some time for your wife to be ready for that.

One of my favorite things is when I'm cooking in the kitchen and my husband walks by me and gives me a hug. This is kind of making me laugh. My very funny friend posted on Facebook one Sunday afternoon, "Hoping to take a nap minus the groping." I love her.

Kisses for no reason are also nice, rather than just the hello and goodbye kisses. You know, kisses minus the groping. If you want to know why women like movies like Pride and Prejudice, it's because there's love minus the groping. And ogling. This guy in our singles ward ogled all women and we wanted to slap him. If you guys refrain from groping and ogling, we will reward you later by letting you grope us.

Confused yet?

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

While it is not LDS Approved, there is a Christian Ministry here in the Seattle, Washington Area. They come on AM 820 and they sponsor what they call "every man's battle" seminar's and programs. The main focus is dealing with Pornography that has entered into the marital relationship.

What you posted here is exactly what they talk about on that show.

Now, before anyone chastises me for mentioning this (even after letters were read about self=help groups), one has to understand that this program is an indepth program that has helped many Christian men and women who have realized that pornography has invaded their marriage. Steve Arterburn is one of the principle founders of the radio program called New Life Live (Christian call in talk show on AM 820 KGNW).

Two things that is always mentioned when a man calls in regarding his addiction to porn, or a wife calls in regarding her husband's addiction to porn.

1) A woman who comes to the realization that her husband is addicted to porn becomes "turned off" in disgust about what her husband is doing. She can't trust him, is not able to open up to him, communicate with him effectively. She does not want to share with him an any activities because it is a constant reminder to her of what he has done to her. In her eyes, she sees her husband as someone who has betrayed her emotionally, spiritually, and intimately. Instead of turning to her for intimate affection, he turned to fantasies of other women (and even sometimes men as well). It is a very real and powerful addiction - more addictive and destructive than alcoholism. Because of this "Desensitizing" of a woman toward her husband, she can't even take simple pleasures in even spending innocent quality time with her husband.

Translation, it is not that she does not want to do anything with you, it is because she is very hurt, fragile, and sees you as a disgusting pervert.

2) Men who are addicted to porn, and actually overcome it become desensitized towards any type of sexual relationship. They go from having sexual fantasies of various forms, sometimes may even get their spouse to fulfill some portion of their sexual fantasies, and having a high caliber sex drive to not having anything to do with sexual intimacy at all. Meaning, they view sex as a disgusting thing that will bring them right back into the grips of pornography.

These two issues are very real that you and your wife are facing. This is something that is going to have to take serious amount of time, serious marital counseling, prayer, scripture reading, and a literal change of behavior toward sexual intimacy.

[Guest mirancs8]

My very funny friend posted on Facebook one Sunday afternoon, "Hoping to take a nap minus the groping."

Now this was funny! I have to say that rear slapping stuff never bothered me. Well I guess it doesn't bother me because I can equally dish it back lol. I could be in the kitchen and wet the tip of the dish towel... ow you better watch out! It's entertaining to watch a man jump out of his skin. Gotta have some fun sometimes!

Translation, it is not that she does not want to do anything with you, it is because she is very hurt, fragile, and sees you as a disgusting pervert.

Exactly. We see you (a man/husband) who engages in the behavior as a disgusting pervert. No better way to describe it. If you are looking to make your women feel like the center of attention and show her how much you love and care about her... Porn and MA is not the way to do it. I can imagine that addiction to these are very difficult but you have to understand it from a woman's view point to see the seriousness of it all. Men with these addictions seem so zoned into themselves, poor me... poor neglected man I am, that they fail to put themselves in her shoes.

Close your eyes for a minute and imagine your wife fantasizing about Vin Diesel doing to town with her... picture him all over her body. You got the picture? ...NOW you try to get it up. Can't do it can you?

[Jazok]

mirancs8, you post was unbelievably offensive. You come off as frigid, misandrist shrew. Do you honestly believe your husband has never had any fantasies? Are you suggesting you have never had any fantasies. Your self-righteousness is useless in this forum. Please go elsewhere.

[Guest mirancs8]

Well I hit a nerve. Frigid and misandrist shrew:confused:... nice try but not words that would be chosen by those who actually know me.

Kudos for you and your thesaurus. Peace be with you.

[Jatt]

I'm back!

Thanks for the additional comments. <3

Ok, so I've been trying really hard to not slap/flick my wife's caboose in passing. It's actually not really all that hard to withstand! For a while I thought about asking her if she preferred either way since... you know... y'all ain't her and, unlike the women on this forum, maybe my wife doesn't mind?!? However, I seem to recall her saying something something about not particularly LOVING it so, I didn't ask (yet). I can see how it might seem like all I'm looking for from her is a physical play thing. Thanks for that advice.

Let me take a moment to expand on my PA. I will repeat, it has been an on-and-off-again issue. I have talked to a few bishops, a branch president, a stake president and a mission president about it. The repentance process happened with a few, and to the others I expressed my concerns about a relapse, and asking advice to prevent it. I don't want to downgrade my situation by saying, "Oh, it's not that bad... It's not an addiction!" I did that for a while and apparently it didn't work. I am trating it like a full blown PA, regardless of what I say below. Most of the times a relapse would occur simply because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. For a while I played an online game similar to "World of Warcraft" late into the night. I justified it because the game I played wasn't as addictive, time consuming, or as expensive as Warcraft (free), but nonetheless, I spent to much time neglecting life to play it. Note: I started to play this game after failing to find the "recreational" activity that we could both enjoy together. In hind sight, this game only made things worse, I know. I have purged this game from my life completely, as well as staying up later than 10:30pm. Basically, being on the computer late at night alone will get you in trouble whether you are looking for it or not.

My attempts to prevent a relapse in the past didn't work well. My suggestion to put the computer in the living room was met by the wife saying, "It won't look good there." Installing any type of web protection is essentially giving away a PA problem and I didn't want to do that (I was dumb). My suggestion to anyone that is concerned about giving into temptation is to install K9 Web Protection, putting the PC in a high traffic area, AND enforcing a computer OFF time (K9 can do this too). This has helped tremendously. If anyone is looking to combat PA these are a must! I am confident PA will be a thing of the past, and I am relieved to know that I can finally see the light at the end of that tunnel.

I have a weird question for the women. I'm looking for an honest answer, not one that you think everyone else on the site expects you to say. I would prefer you PM me the answer, but you can post it here if you want also.

First of all, let me say that I love everything about my wife. Among all her amazing qualities that I won't list here, she is a perfect 10. Except when porn is involved, when MB occurs I am almost always thinking about my wife and past experiences we have had. Most of the time (w/o P) when a small urge arises and the wife says no, or she isn't around to ask, the urge will pass. Sometimes it is much harder to overcome. Would it make any difference to you if your husband told you, [knowing that PA was mostly something that occurred as a result of temptations and not actively seeking it] that his MB was done thinking about you rather than some other woman or fantasy? Keep in mind that my wife trusts me still, and is trying to help me more than I thought she would be willing to. She is about to start up birth control again when I didn't expect to be intimate for a while longer. I haven't told her this, should I? Would it make a difference at all? Would it lessen the feelings of betrayal/hurt? Would it make you feel even more objectified as a woman?

MB is probably the hardest thing for me to combat to be honest, PA is mostly a non-issue for me at the moment, but I still haven't gotten to the point that I am telling my wife each and every time I succumb to MB temptations, and she doesn't ask. The bishop asks, and I tell him. On the disgusted scale of 1 through 10. How disgusted would you be knowing that your husband is MB while thinking about you? And how disgusted would you be knowing that your husband is MB while thinking about and/or looking at PA?

I ask because MB and PA, for the most part, are sins that occur while alone, and if nobody asks how you are doing, it is harder to stop. If you knew that at the end of each day/week someone was going to ask you about your progress, it is easier, at least for me, to want to overcome temptations and stop, even if the only reason is to be able to look that person in the eye and tell them you didn't fall. So, I am wondering if it would be to difficult for her to talk about when MB occurs and what is going through my mind? It would probably help me overcome MB quicker, and help her understand how/why/when I am having issues.

I think that's enough rambling from me for one night. Thanks ahead of time!

[Guest mirancs8]

Jatt, let me just say it is a great thing that you are working on your problems. That take a lot of strength to do. I want you to know that we all know it take a lot of effort and it's not easy to do. Keep at it!

There are lots of people here who can understand what you are going through. Though I am on the other side of it (as a woman) there are men here who can relate to your struggle.

I've PM'd my comments to your questions.

[MichaelCraig]

Don't you wish we had an instruction manual to go by when it comes to relationship problems??? WAIT! We do! It's called the Holy Bible. :)

[Jatt]

I found her post very helpful.

At times I have thought that if the tables were turned and my wife had reverted to PA/MB because I was the one telling her no ...all...the...time... then I wouldn't be as offended as she is now. Their are too many flaws in this statement to list so I won't do it. The difference is I didn't use PA to fulfill fantasies of certain people I wanted to be with. It just helped move things along faster.

I would be hurt if I knew my wife was obsessed with a certain someone and thought about that person during intimacy, or participated in MB while thinking about them. I didn't think about that until Mirancs8 made her post. For me at least, PA/MB has never been about that, but my wife might not know that. I've never tried to imagine being with someone else during intimacy either, why would you need/want to?

I guess it is safe to say that people assume the worse in these kinds of situations, and trying to explain to your spouse what is going through your head isn't effective if they can't trust the words coming out of your mouth.

On another note, I hope that someday we can get past all this. If/when we do, my wife will have a very large and powerful card she can play if she wants me to feel terrible. I don't want to be years down the road and have her bring up past (resolved) issues during an argument completely unrelated to PA/MB. My wife does NOT easily forget, and every argument we have ever had she brings up past miseries that neither of us can accurately remember. Our arguments about certain situations usually end in disagreement as to what actually happened. She remembers it one way and I another, it kills me how she can hold onto things for so long and can't get past it.

The general consensus is that my wife thinks I am a disgusting pervert. The one person I am going to spend the rest of my life and eternity with resents me... and based on what I know about her, I don't think she will let this go when things get rough again. This is not what I want, and it's my fault. Separation is looking more and more like the solution here... But that seems like the easy way out, like avoiding the 'forgive and FORGET' portion of repentance and just being with someone that doesn't have to KNOW about it. I'm hoping that after all is said and done, our love will be stronger as a result of the forgiveness. Is that a false hope? SweetiePie mentioned that she had to ask Heavenly Father to remove the hurt and he did. That's awesome! I just don't know what to do. We have talked about making a compromise and planning days during the week when intimacy would happen (twice a week?). We haven't put this into action but is this really a reasonable compromise?

I found a really good article by a woman in the church.

President Spencer W. Kimball stated, “If you study the divorces, as we have had to do in these past years, you will find there are reasons. Generally, sex is the first; they did not get along sexually. They may not say that in court. They may not even tell that to their attorneys, but that is the reason.”

In my mind it is the distaste or ambivalence that seems to be the real problem—not the man’s supposed “over-interest” in things sexual. (And, indeed, don’t we tend to define “over-interest” as interest that is really merely greater than our own? Is the demonization fair? Is it markedly different from calling someone less interested “frigid”?)

God did not intend for marital intimacy to be something we want to avoid, but rather something that brings us closer as a couple, that makes us “one,” not just physically, but emotionally as well. If intimacy is not bringing us closer, we should ask ourselves why.

Perhaps, as you suggest, this may just be biology. One person is always in overdrive while the other can’t get out of first gear. Neither, in my opinion, is inherently good or bad and neither should be labeled as such. It is an issue of compatibility. But if your interest level and that of your husband truly vary widely, can you not come to some mutually agreeable, mutually satisfying solution?

Years ago I attended a stake Relief Society conference. One of the workshops was about keeping the “romance” alive in marriage. This class was really a gently-phrased class on marital intimacy. The teacher, who served a mission in Japan, told the group that she lit a special Japanese candle that made the shadow of a butterfly on the wall to indicate to her husband that she was “in the mood for love.” Other class members followed, alternately explaining their particular personal mating call and making pithy comments like, “What if you’re never in the mood?” or “Why would you ever want to let your husband know even if you were?”

I left the class completely disillusioned. Had I been doing it wrong by not sprinkling rose petals on the sheets? Should I have a particular scent of incense tucked away to indicate my increasing desire? (Could I afford that much incense?) Was I completely unromantic by simply saying, “Hey, baby…”

When I got home, I immediately went to my husband and asked if he would prefer the more subtle, nonverbal approach. He said, “No!!! You are just what every man dreams of.”

So, that may be an exaggeration. But to him it was true. And that is key, that our approach is what is most effective (for want of a better word) within our relationship. And that I would have been willing to change my approach if he would have liked it better

Lastly, I have never really considered the highs and lows of sexual interest to be much of an issue. That may be because my husband and I are generally very compatible in this area, but I think there is more to it. If either of us were ill or injured or particularly concerned or distracted over an issue, the other would be respectful and understanding and not press physical intimacy at a time when the other didn’t feel able to give it. There would be no pouting or trying to make the other feel guilty. There is no keeping score. To the contrary, we would try to help the other feel better.

On quite the other hand, if one of us were interested and the other were merely indifferent, I cannot think of a time when either of us withheld from the other. But please understand the mindset involved. This is not done out of pity. It is not done out of duty or some notion of marital rights. It is not done as some form of self-sacrifice. It is done out of love. Whether or not you are feeling a particular physiological need at a given moment, how can you not enjoy the pleasure of the person you love more than anyone on earth?

It seems like planning intimacy could be a valid compromise? I'm not a fan of planning it out to the exact minute... [sEX @ 9:00P.M. Every Tues and Thursday] But maybe something like home teaching? Instead of monthly, do it once a week? We each make an effort to start intimacy once per week? The only thing I can see being good about planning out the day would be having a small goal to reach to help combat MB. If I knew I was 2 days away from 'Sexy Family Home Evening' then urges would be easier to overcome.

Aren't you all tired of my rants yet?

Edited December 3, 2010 by beefche
removed quote

[Jazok]

The general consensus is that my wife thinks I am a disgusting pervert.

There is a difference in assessing how someone may view you and stating that's what you are. I took particular offense because I have dealt with a wife who has stated repeatedly throughout our marriage that I'm a pervert for having normal sexual desires.

Unfortunately, I know far too many devoted Mormon males who fall into this category and have found that the attitudes of the church itself supports this. However clumsy a husband may be when trying express affection for his wife, to be called a pervert is extremely offensive and very painful. It denigrates that person and creates a bitterness which is hard to overcome.

It is also my experience and observation that for many Mormon husbands, pornography did not become a problem until they were humiliated, deprived of sexual intimacy with this very accusation being core. To be blunt, rather than have an affair, they resorted to porn.

(Yes, there are those who have compulsions or, if you prefer, addictions, but that's true for everything. Most people who drink do so without any problems, but some have a compulsion and others have a physical addiction [there is a difference.] Such people are in the minority, not the majority and the causes are generally different. My comments above may have some relevance to this group as a triggering effect, but pertain mostly to the normal people out there who, using the alcohol example, bing or have a recurring consumption. To call someone who drinks a beer a day an alcoholic is patently absurd, the same with any other compulsion, including pornography.)

[sweetiepie]

Ma alone sometimes is not just a man problem, I think at times it needs to be considered a couple issue. Why is the husband finding it difficult to control his urges? Is it an addiction, or is he really having sex withheld from a wife who is emotionally distant, and having trouble forgiving? (not saying this is the case here)

Sometimes I think we point fingers at the men too much at times, when we can at times help them not feel as tempted. Lets give them that much. I know that as a woman, I have urges, and when my husband hasn't been in the mood very often (another issue for us), I struggle.

Just throwing another idea out there.

[MorningStar]

There is a difference in assessing how someone may view you and stating that's what you are. I took particular offense because I have dealt with a wife who has stated repeatedly throughout our marriage that I'm a pervert for having normal sexual desires.

Unfortunately, I know far too many devoted Mormon males who fall into this category and have found that the attitudes of the church itself supports this. However clumsy a husband may be when trying express affection for his wife, to be called a pervert is extremely offensive and very painful. It denigrates that person and creates a bitterness which is hard to overcome.

It is also my experience and observation that for many Mormon husbands, pornography did not become a problem until they were humiliated, deprived of sexual intimacy with this very accusation being core. To be blunt, rather than have an affair, they resorted to porn.

(Yes, there are those who have compulsions or, if you prefer, addictions, but that's true for everything. Most people who drink do so without any problems, but some have a compulsion and others have a physical addiction [there is a difference.] Such people are in the minority, not the majority and the causes are generally different. My comments above may have some relevance to this group as a triggering effect, but pertain mostly to the normal people out there who, using the alcohol example, bing or have a recurring consumption. To call someone who drinks a beer a day an alcoholic is patently absurd, the same with any other compulsion, including pornography.)

The majority of the time, the husband had a problem long before he met his wife - from age 12 or earlier. Many women are turned down by their husbands because they start to prefer the porn and lose sensitivity when it comes to normal relations. Whether wives are interested or not, they are typically blamed for their husbands' porn use anyway. Whether a guy is single, married, or divorced, there is no excuse for looking at it. You never hear in conference, "Don't look at porn unless you're single, divorced, or your wife is disinterested in sex."