A Mormon Whitehouse

[Outshined]

Okay...I'm probably going to really step into it, here...but, imho, what the best of the "anti-cult" programs does isn't so different from what FAIR or Catholic Answers does: Here is what we believe, this is what these other groups believe. Keep in mind that LDS missionaries do hope to convert non-LDS Christians to the LDS Church. They may be nice about it, but they attempt to "win" souls from established Christian churches.

I disagree with violence, intimidation, muck-raking, etc. BUT, it's not automatically a "Let's hate our Mormon neighbors" thing, everytime an evangelical church holds a meeting to remind members--this is what we believe, and it's different from what these other groups believe--especially when those groups send emmissaries to our doors.

It's enough just to say I believe you're wrong. I've attended several of these things and can say from experience that it is very different from apologetics. It is often the spreading of inflammatory material and outright lies, as moj illustrated. I've yet to see one that was "here are the differences between us"; it's always "they're a cult, and here's why."

Is it coincidence that the day after their program a woman in our ward started getting phone calls from people who shout "your children will burn in Hell" (her sister attends a local Baptist church that was participating in the program)? Or that anti-Mormon pamphlets start showing up on the windshields of members' cars at sacrament around the same time? I think not.

If you want to put them on the same playing field, show me churches sending missionaries door to door sharing a message, not spreading lies and hatred from the pulpit. If I'd never attended the programs you might convince me otherwise, but I've seen it myself.

The fact is, other churches send "emmissaries" door-to-door (here it's the JWs and Baptists), but we've never seen reason to preach against anyone else in our Church, and I see no way to justify it.

On the other hand, if I ever teach such a class, I plan to use the Sacred Works, and lds.org, FAIR, FARMS, etc. for any Mormon source material. :) I may even run some things through the ldstalk rubric, first.

As long as it's honest and in a Christlike spirit, you can't go wrong.

[Lindy]

Frankly I think well see a woman in the White House before we'll see a Mormon. That said, I think Mitt's got a better chance than Orrin Hatch anyday. A broader appeal and he's not IN Utah.

Maybe SHE WILL be mormon

And on with the discussion.... I have a young man I work with who tells me the things he was told (in his church he went to) years ago about how wrong we are in our religion.... we have decent discussions while we work, and although he still doesn't believe in the LDS faith, I think maybe he has more respect for it.

Also along the lines of other churchs bashing our faith... my oldest son... who belongs to a different church called me up and told me he loved me and didn't want me going to hell, so would I please leave the mormon church and repent so I could go to heaven when I died. My SON told me I was going to hell! And where did he come to this conclusion? From the talks in his church about how bad we are. I just told him in a very calm voice... how surprised he would be to see me in heaven still being a mormon and realize how wrong his church was for putting thoughts like that in his head.

Then I found a priesthood holder on line..(no home teachers ).......thanks John D for stepping up :) ..... to vent and cry on.... and then he calmed me down with something about knowing the truth.... and that is all that matters. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks... it's between me and God.

How small others may feel when they see us standing next to them after the judgement day. It will all be for naught...the bashing, the hurt, and the lies.

[Outshined]

A friend sent me an interesting article on this subject from the American Spectator. http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=9157

And a letter posted on the site should give some perspective on that whole "confusing evangelical apologetics with conservative Christian politics" angle...

Submitted by Mary Alan Woodward, Louisville, Kentucky:

Grover Norquist, in "The Best and the Brightest," notes that "many

evangelical churches still circulate tracts attacking Mormonism..as a cult." May

God..the God of the bible that is, bless them!

Mormonism certainly meets the definition of a cult:

Mormons believe that theirs is the one true church and that all others are false:

that their leader is a revelator and prophet who speaks in God's name; and that

their primary holy book, The Book of Mormon, is equal to the Bible, if not holier.

Mormons believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer

and that faithful Mormons will become gods. The Book of Mormon says that dark

skin is a punishment for sin (2 Nephi 5:21 and Alma 3:6) a belief that, in

recent years, has been "divinely revealed" to need correction, leading even some

Mormons to wonder what else in their holy book may be wrong.

If the GOP wants to nominate Mitt Romney in 2008, I

recommend that Repubicans learn about Mormonism before they vote.

There are many good books on the subject, from Hank Hanegraff's Kingdom of the Cults to Bob Larson's New Book of Cults.

I may vote for Roman Catholic politicians in many cases

because, while their church also has strayed from biblical truth in many crucial

ways, it at least acknowledges the Triune God, the divinity of Jesus, His virgin

birth, and His bodily resurrection. However, biblical Christianity and Mormonism have virtually nothing in common (Galations 1:8-9 comes to mind).

I may have to abstain from voting for the next president if the GOP makes me choose between Hilary and heresy.

Such religious bigotry and ignorance would indeed be an obstacle for an LDS candidate.

[Lindy]

A friend sent me an interesting article on this subject from the American Spectator. http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=9157

Such religious bigotry and ignorance would indeed be an obstacle for an LDS candidate.

The only thing I can hope for is that some who click on the links to scripture reference within that article will take the time and read a little more verses, than those sited to try to confuse or convince the reader. We can only hope for some who will be willing to seek some truth, instead of just go by hearsay.

[TruthWave]

A friend sent me an interesting article on this subject from the American Spectator. http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=9157

And a letter posted on the site should give some perspective on that whole "confusing evangelical apologetics with conservative Christian politics" angle...

Submitted by Mary Alan Woodward, Louisville, Kentucky:

Grover Norquist, in "The Best and the Brightest," notes that "many

evangelical churches still circulate tracts attacking Mormonism..as a cult." May

God..the God of the bible that is, bless them!

Mormonism certainly meets the definition of a cult:

Mormons believe that theirs is the one true church and that all others are false:

that their leader is a revelator and prophet who speaks in God's name; and that

their primary holy book, The Book of Mormon, is equal to the Bible, if not holier.

Mormons believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer

and that faithful Mormons will become gods. The Book of Mormon says that dark

skin is a punishment for sin (2 Nephi 5:21 and Alma 3:6) a belief that, in

recent years, has been "divinely revealed" to need correction, leading even some

Mormons to wonder what else in their holy book may be wrong.

If the GOP wants to nominate Mitt Romney in 2008, I

recommend that Repubicans learn about Mormonism before they vote.

There are many good books on the subject, from Hank Hanegraff's Kingdom of the Cults to Bob Larson's New Book of Cults.

I may vote for Roman Catholic politicians in many cases

because, while their church also has strayed from biblical truth in many crucial

ways, it at least acknowledges the Triune God, the divinity of Jesus, His virgin

birth, and His bodily resurrection. However, biblical Christianity and Mormonism have virtually nothing in common (Galations 1:8-9 comes to mind).

I may have to abstain from voting for the next president if the GOP makes me choose between Hilary and heresy.

Such religious bigotry and ignorance would indeed be an obstacle for an LDS candidate.

It is interesting to note, that the Evangelical/Protestant Right religio-political movement has embraced Roman Catholics at all levels now, from the Pope on down to the local priests and laymembers to join them in the pushing forward the issues of abortion, prayer in schools, creation vs evolutuon, etc, etc. This type of unity is a very recent trend. As was stated earlier in another post, it was not until the 1960's that JFK was elected as our first Roman Catholic President.

[Snow]

If the GOP wants to nominate Mitt Romney in 2008, I

recommend that Repubicans learn about Mormonism before they vote.

There are many good books on the subject, from Hank Hanegraff's Kingdom of the Cults to Bob Larson's New Book of Cults.

I guess the scary thing is that such a person as wrote this letter is a conservative and that something about conservative-ism attracts such stupid people. I mean how bright do you have to be to know that the Hank Hanegraff's of the world are far from honest and reliable reporters of reality.

[prisonchaplain]

PC, at the MTC they don't teach against other faiths. They aren't taught anything, one way or the other, about other faiths.Except what we are already taught: YOU DO NOT BASH ANOTHER FAITH! What they do teach is languages, cultural customs and intense scripture training. Our MTC is not about what other faiths do or do not do. It does not teach what to say or not to say to JW's, Baptists, Catholics, etc. Nor are they taught how to debate with someone. Our Missionaries will not "debate" with investigators. That is not part of their "job description".The MTC is preparing our Missionaries, young and old for their missions. Be it a prostelizing mission, or a service mission.

I'm aware that Mormon missionaries are taught to be positive, to offer what the Church has, and not to argue. However, I'd be surprised to learn that there was no instruction on something like "Answers to common objections," whether it was religion-specific or not. Even I can think of some common FAQ responses:

Do you really allow multiple wives? NO, we haven't allowed such for over 100 years.

Why can't you drink coffee? Our prophet said that it was bad for us, and we take his words as a revelation from God.

Why did you add to the Bible? There's nothing in the Bible that says it was completed. In fact, the Bible speaks much about prophets and prophecies. Don't you think it's strange that other churches no longer have prophets or prophecies?

I could go on, but my point is that it would be acceptable, and imho wise, for BOTH missionaries and for those who know that emmissaries from other groups will be coming to our doors, to have an answer for the faith we hold dear.

The reason it is so common for evangelicals and fundamentalists to have study sessions about Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses is that these two faith groups send representatives to our doors regularly.

BTW, the Catholic Answers website lists Fundamentalists right along with Mormons and JWs, because our churches sometimes send out members to leave invitation tracts at doors.

[prisonchaplain]

If you want to put them on the same playing field, show me churches sending missionaries door to door sharing a message, not spreading lies and hatred from the pulpit. If I'd never attended the programs you might convince me otherwise, but I've seen it myself.

I'll be frank. I've not been to a live seminar. I have seen some books and websites. Some are better than others, but, from the view of evangelicals look for quick overviews, and doctrinally sound answers (from our view), I thought most of them acceptable.

So, if they are most sensational, inflammatory, and lead to viciousness rather than intelligent dialogues, then maybe President Mouer (Fuller Seminary) was accurate and appropriate in the apology he issued a few months back.

My purpose in these responses was to defend the general idea that Christians, Catholics, and yes Mormons, might appropriately study common questions that might face from those of other faith groups, and that seminars targetting the questions of specific groups, would not automatically be hateful, unfair, etc.

The fact is, other churches send "emmissaries" door-to-door (here it's the JWs and Baptists), but we've never seen reason to preach against anyone else in our Church, and I see no way to justify it.

Is it not possible to prepare your people with some answers to honest questions from both groups? They could also be trained to quickly end a conversation that was turning confrontational. Just a thought.

[prisonchaplain]

Also along the lines of other churchs bashing our faith... my oldest son... who belongs to a different church called me up and told me he loved me and didn't want me going to hell, so would I please leave the mormon church and repent so I could go to heaven when I died. My SON told me I was going to hell! And where did he come to this conclusion? From the talks in his church about how bad we are. I just told him in a very calm voice... how surprised he would be to see me in heaven still being a mormon and realize how wrong his church was for putting thoughts like that in his head.

Then I found a priesthood holder on line..(no home teachers ).......thanks John D for stepping up :) ..... to vent and cry on.... and then he calmed me down with something about knowing the truth.... and that is all that matters. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks... it's between me and God.

Not to discount any of the hurt or difficulty you've experienced, but to give you a child's perspective on parents we believe are wayward. I became a Christian at age 10. My parents had me baptized as an infant, into the Lutheran church. However, they didn't go themselves--they were appeasing grandma, who believed children had to be baptized to go to heaven.

From 10 - 40 I prayed for my mother, whom I believed to be "lost." No, I did not tell her to repent or burn in hell. But, she knew what the church taught, and knew her son wanted her to "get saved."

It never became an issue of bitterness between us, but spiritually there was certainly a divide. Ironically, my mother was proud when I become ordained, and beamed as brightly as any church woman would, at the special service, where I received the laying on of hands and the commission to "preach the word!" That was 1996.

It wouldn't be until 2004--eight years later, that she would come to church and lift a hand at the pastor's invitation to repent and be saved.

Of course, my story is different. My mother did not belong to a different church or faith. But, some of the same dynamics are there. The best I can suggest is to let your light shine, as your son does likewise. Keep loving, keep hoping--for spiritual and emotional total reconciliation.

I guess the scary thing is that such a person as wrote this letter is a conservative and that something about conservative-ism attracts such stupid people. I mean how bright do you have to be to know that the Hank Hanegraff's of the world are far from honest and reliable reporters of reality.

You ought to be thankful for Hank. He's all but destroyed the credibility of Walter Martin's organization. After Walter passed on, Hank decided to turn his guns on the "prosperity preachers," and other Christian leaders he found wanting. In the mean time, he got into some of his own controversy of financial mismanagement.

I know you're too good to take pleasure in seeing your critics self-destruct, Snow, but thought I'd let you know, so you might offer up a prayer for poor Hank.

[Outshined]

Is it not possible to prepare your people with some answers to honest questions from both groups? They could also be trained to quickly end a conversation that was turning confrontational. Just a thought.

They are trained to avoid argument, and walk away from such confrontation (though not all do, from what I've heard ). And the purpose of missionaries is to spread the Gospel and answer questions.

The problem is that the questions raised by many of these programs (suc as "The Godmakers" or the SBC's "Mormon Puzzle" program) are not honest.

However, the upside is that many people develop a deeper curiosity about other churches because of the inflammatory seminars, and ask member directly. In that respect, "The Godmakers" has actually brought its share of converts into the LDS Church.

There is nothing wrong with honest questions and discourse, but many of these programs are just not honest or in a Christlike spirit. I'll give you props and add that you've gone about it in the correct way, in my opinion. B)

[Snow]

You ought to be thankful for Hank. He's all but destroyed the credibility of Walter Martin's organization. After Walter passed on, Hank decided to turn his guns on the "prosperity preachers," and other Christian leaders he found wanting. In the mean time, he got into some of his own controversy of financial mismanagement.

I know you're too good to take pleasure in seeing your critics self-destruct, Snow, but thought I'd let you know, so you might offer up a prayer for poor Hank.

Let's me ask you a serious question:

I don't know but I imagine Hank is Evangelical and probably Pentecostally oriented? Yes, no? No matter. My question is - and please don't take this as a slam - but it seems the flamboyant, high visibiity, drama king, self-destruct and crash/burn types come mostly from the Pentecostal corner or Four Square (or whatever it is - I'm sorry I don't know).

Is that accurate? I went to a Joseph Smith Symposium at Claremont College recently and one of the presenters was a Pentecostal scholar who told the story of the first ever or one of the first Pentecostal mega-popular celebrity preachers early last century who was a common household name across the nation. I can't recall his name but their is very little public information about him because after he crashed and burned due to sexual impropriety, the movement closed ranks to eliminate him from thier consciousness. The scholar has done a book or research project on the guy. But, it seems that common to the movement.

Am I imagining that, and if not, what is it that attract these high flyers and crashers to the movement?

Have your read Don't Call Me Brother by Austin Miles?

[prisonchaplain]

I don't know but I imagine Hank is Evangelical and probably Pentecostally oriented? Yes, no?

He's evangelical, but not Pentecostal, and not that flamboyant. Most of those he attacked in his book Christianity in Crisis were Pentecostal.

No matter. My question is - and please don't take this as a slam - but it seems the flamboyant, high visibiity, drama king, self-destruct and crash/burn types come mostly from the Pentecostal corner or Four Square (or whatever it is - I'm sorry I don't know).

I think it seems that way because most of the big name preachers of the last 60 years were Pentecostal. The faith has a warm worship style, and through the 1980s, a passionate homily delivery style. As such, Pentecostal ministers did well with the TV format. And, you know the kid's cliche, "the bigger they are, the harder they fall."

I've not seen studies to suggest that sexual or financial failure is any higher amongst Pentecostal leaders than in other groups, but it is an issu we take seriously. At any time I felt concerned, I have a 1-800 # I can call for anonymous telephone counseling (professional), and I could schedule to have myself and my family flown to a counseling center, at Church expense, if I felt it necessary.

Is that accurate? I went to a Joseph Smith Symposium at Claremont College recently and one of the presenters was a Pentecostal scholar who told the story of the first ever or one of the first Pentecostal mega-popular celebrity preachers early last century who was a common household name across the nation. I can't recall his name but their is very little public information about him because after he crashed and burned due to sexual impropriety, the movement closed ranks to eliminate him from thier consciousness. The scholar has done a book or research project on the guy. But, it seems that common to the movement.

There are probably between a half dozen and a dozen anecdotes like this. I'm not sure the number is really out of proportion to other sectors of Christianity, but we've done disproportionately well in TV ministry, and thus, a few of our "failures" gathered great attention.

I was in seminary from 1993 - 1996, and we talked often about the failures of the two Jimmies, and how we might learn from and avoid their failures.

I'm I imagining that, and if not, what is it that attract these high flyers and crashers to the movement? Have your read Don't Call Me Brother by Austin Miles?

Haven't read the book, but this discussion reminds me a bit of The Apostle (movie). We attract high flyers because we value passion as much as learnedness. Often, this works well, because men with powerful conversion experiences who have sincerely repented, find welcome. On the other hand, occasionally those with more flash than substance gain too much traction, but then they crash, as you pointed out.

[Laureltree]

WoW ! i have been gone for awhile...But i'll take a punch at it...

Oh president here's your cocoa, shall I ask the prime minister if he would like some as well? Sure...And please brother Anderson, Call Me Brother Matthews...We are in the den. What shall we do about the looks of war? well I feel we need another fast, could you call the president of the church and ask for his support in uniting the brotheren? Yes sir Mr president ! Brother anderson ! I mean yes sir ! Brother Matthews. I will see you this evening.

I feel the white house would be clean, organized, full of the spirit, and a sense of humor that could make us all chuckle.....

Hugs LaurelTree

[Winnie G]

Thats what Im talking about!

[Lindy]

WoW ! i have been gone for awhile...But i'll take a punch at it...

Oh president here's your cocoa, shall I ask the prime minister if he would like some as well? Sure...And please brother Anderson, Call Me Brother Matthews...We are in the den. What shall we do about the looks of war? well I feel we need another fast, could you call the president of the church and ask for his support in uniting the brotheren? Yes sir Mr president ! Brother anderson ! I mean yes sir ! Brother Matthews. I will see you this evening.

I feel the white house would be clean, organized, full of the spirit, and a sense of humor that could make us all chuckle.....

Hugs LaurelTree

ROFL that's great LT

Don't forget the green jello as dessert for the Prime Minister later on this evening

[begood2]

Lindy,

I like green jello Too!

[prisonchaplain]

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE(Lindy @ Mar 20 2006, 12:07 AM) ←</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>

ROFL that's great LT

Don't forget the green jello as dessert for the Prime Minister later on this evening

Okay, I've seen these cryptic references to green jello several times now, and they're starting to scare me. Just what is it with Mormons and green jello.

I could deal with giving up coffee, if I knew doing so was submission to the truth. BUT consuming green jello? I can't believe that's right. You'll have to give me some Scripture references--a lot of them

[Dr T]

Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as green Jello.

It's in there PC.

Dr T

[Winnie G]

Oh ye of little knowledge.

Its lime you can do a lot from Popcorn balls to cheep cottage cheese lime cheese cake.

It’s the # 1 seller in UT I live in Canada and I know that

[TruthTeller69]

I don't care how conservative the South is, they won't vote for a Mormon. The Southern Baptists would abstain from voting or even vote for a liberal rather than put a Mormon in office. The preachers would cry from the pulpit and the members would obey.

This statement is So very true the only chance a Mormon would have in the South is if he were running against a Gay...and even then it would be a toss up

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

I've always heard that many churches preach about how bad Mormonism is, but in all my church visiting, I've never even heard the word 'mormon' in another church. I'm sure some do, but I don't think it's very prevalent.

Maybe not where you live. Here (in a small town in Texas), the Baptist Churches hold seminars to "educate" their members about other faiths. Funny, they don't ever invite the missionaries or a Bishop to speak. But we get asked all kinds of (rude, unbelievable) questions, and occasionally parents forbid their kids to play with ours.

Same here in Tennessee. My daughter is dating a non-member, and his church is doing the seminars this week, with a different "cult" lecture each night. As I said, last night was their "seminar" about Latter-day Saints. She was dreading what she'd hear from him today, but he didn't say anything about it; I don't think he cares much about that stuff.

Same here in NC......the fact is they don't even think "Mormons" are Christians......it really get's to me..... I attend a SBC but I am not a member and never will be...to me it's about my relationship with Christ not were I go to church and it is through HIM that i have salvation.....I love all Christians...I don't like them all...but I love them all

[Lindy]

Same here in NC......the fact is they don't even think "Mormons" are Christians......it really get's to me..... I attend a SBC but I am not a member and never will be...to me it's about my relationship with Christ not were I go to church and it is through HIM that i have salvation.....I love all Christians...I don't like them all...but I love them all

Welcome on board TruthTeller69 !!! Love that last statement of yours.... "I love all Christians...I don't like them all...but I love them all" Isn't that the way it is supposed to be :) And I agree about the relationship with Christ.... most important aspect I think... sometimes we lose sight. Church is a help to keep us going, to give us inspiration, and to help us feel closer to the Lord. You've got the important thing down.... :)

[thedreadedbat]

The only thing that would be different if Mitt Romney became president is that mormon would say "See, we're not a cult. The President is a mormon."

BTW I wouldn't vote for Mitt Romney. I think he's a dink.

[Snow]

I'm I imagining that, and if not, what is it that attract these high flyers and crashers to the movement? Have your read Don't Call Me Brother by Austin Miles?

Haven't read the book, but this discussion reminds me a bit of The Apostle (movie). We attract high flyers because we value passion as much as learnedness. Often, this works well, because men with powerful conversion experiences who have sincerely repented, find welcome. On the other hand, occasionally those with more flash than substance gain too much traction, but then they crash, as you pointed out.

He was a PTL alumni who went public with the financial and sexual excess thing. I have it but wonder if it's worth reading.

[prisonchaplain]

He was a PTL alumni who went public with the financial and sexual excess thing. I have it but wonder if it's worth reading.

You might as well read the book by the head guy himself--"I Was Wrong!" by Jim Bakker. I found it interesting from a federal chaplain's vantage point (recall that he served 8 years in fed prison). He did come to some huge changes of view, but never gave up the notion that he was railroaded, and could have pulled PTL through it's bad stretch if the feds hadn't shut him down.