do any mormons, practise polygamy at all

[Elphaba]

Not according to Fawn Brodie's book.

There are newer scholarly books that give us a good deal of additional information about Joseph's polygamy. It really was very complex, in both practice and belief.

I have never said that I don't think sex was a motivation for Joseph, as I think it was. I just think there is ample evidence to indicate it was about many other things as well, to a much greater degree, especially the dynastic and familial motivations.

Obviously, I don't believe he really had a revelation to practice polygamy, but I have no doubt whatsoever that he thought he had. The reasons for that can't be explained by he simply wanted to have sex. Frankly, that's absurd.

Elphaba

Edited December 19, 2010 by Elphaba

[ttribe]

But of course let's take the words of someone who was excommunicated for apostasy.

I wouldn't dismiss Brodie out of hand. Her research is considered quite reliable by many LDS scholars (Bushman, for example). Some of her conclusions leave something to be desired, but her research is pretty solid.

Edited December 19, 2010 by ttribe

[Backroads]

I wouldn't dismiss Brodie out of hand. Her research is considered quite reliable by many LDS scholars (Bushman, for example). Some of her conclusions leave something to be desired, but her research is pretty solid.

It's true.

Having studied a bit of history, I think it's quite dangerous to make lots of hard conclusions on anything, which is what Brodie and other such researchers have done. You may have solid facts, but you have to be careful what you do with them and also realize that those facts are not inclusive and all that happened in history.

[Backroads]

Well not to burst your bubble but it's recorded that although many women found it trying many were also quite content with the lifestyle and didn't show issue with it in the least. It's actually somewhat of a misconception that mormon women were dehumanized by the practice. In reality a lot of wives lived lives similar to those of other women during those times. Don't mistake the practices of fundamentalist now with the earlier churches brand of polygamy. They are actually quite different. But I certainly won't argue that the policy was abused by some.

Personally, I'm not quite sure why polygamy is illegal in the first place other than it's simply not a western social norm. I really could care less if consenting adults want to live life this way. As long as people can afford their families it doesn't affect me in the least.

Hence the "not necessarily" in my OP. I just don't think we can say "All women loved/hated it". And I am just saying that my cousins had miserable times in their contemporary polygamous relationships.

From what I understand, Canada is considering legalizing polygamous relationships. I have no problem with that. Like catalyst, I do agree that consenting adults may do whatever they wish as long as it doesn't affect me.

[HoosierGuy]

It's true.

Having studied a bit of history, I think it's quite dangerous to make lots of hard conclusions on anything, which is what Brodie and other such researchers have done. You may have solid facts, but you have to be careful what you do with them and also realize that those facts are not inclusive and all that happened in history.

And yet it's considered one of the best, if not the best bio of Joseph Smith. Brodie also made known the Hemings story in her book about Thomas Jefferson. She got criticized and is still attacked over that book. I've recently learned there is a large Jefferson faction out there still protecting Jefferson and his "image". I think they are scared the real image of Jefferson coming out - for all his brilliance he was still a man like every other man. He used his slave women to satisfy s*x needs. And when you have s*x with women and they can't say no, is that not close to rape? That's what the Jefferson fans are scared of - the public realizing Jefferson was abusing his slaves like any other vile slave owner from then back to beginning of time.

Brodie - a brave woman, one of the bravest.

[mapman]

And yet it's considered one of the best, if not the best bio of Joseph Smith. Brodie also made known the Hemings story in her book about Thomas Jefferson. She got criticized and is still attacked over that book. I've recently learned there is a large Jefferson faction out there still protecting Jefferson and his "image". I think they are scared the real image of Jefferson coming out - for all his brilliance he was still a man like every other man. He used his slave women to satisfy s*x needs. And when you have s*x with women and they can't say no, is that not close to rape? That's what the Jefferson fans are scared of - the public realizing Jefferson was abusing his slaves like any other vile slave owner from then back to beginning of time.

Brodie - a brave woman, one of the bravest.

Considered the best by whom? I think that Bushman's is much better. He does history right: use historical evidence instead of phsychoanalytical analysis of people. I think Hugh Nibley's review is right on: Hugh W. Nibley: "No, Ma'am, That's Not History"

[HoosierGuy]

Considered the best by whom? I think that Bushman's is much better. He does history right: use historical evidence instead of phsychoanalytical analysis of people. I think Hugh Nibley's review is right on: Hugh W. Nibley: "No, Ma'am, That's Not History"

I think Nibley remarks "No, Ma'am, That's Not History" are clearly sexist and immature,

[Dravin]

I think Nibley remarks "No, Ma'am, That's Not History" are clearly sexist and immature,

How is it clearly sexist? Unless you mean it hyper-literally where saying, "No, Sir, that's not history." is also sexist (Sir and Ma'am being gender specific).

[ttribe]

Considered the best by whom? I think that Bushman's is much better. He does history right: use historical evidence instead of phsychoanalytical analysis of people. I think Hugh Nibley's review is right on: Hugh W. Nibley: "No, Ma'am, That's Not History"

Bushman's book is the seminal work, IMO.

Edited December 22, 2010 by ttribe

[ttribe]

I think Nibley remarks "No, Ma'am, That's Not History" are clearly sexist and immature,

Huh?

[catalyst]

There are newer scholarly books that give us a good deal of additional information about Joseph's polygamy. It really was very complex, in both practice and belief.

I have never said that I don't think sex was a motivation for Joseph, as I think it was. I just think there is ample evidence to indicate it was about many other things as well, to a much greater degree, especially the dynastic and familial motivations.

Obviously, I don't believe he really had a revelation to practice polygamy, but I have no doubt whatsoever that he thought he had. The reasons for that can't be explained by he simply wanted to have sex. Frankly, that's absurd.

Elphaba

Then again guys do a lot of crazy things simply for sex

[Just_A_Guy]

. . . clearly sexist and immature,

Ah, political correctness.

We have found a witch, may we burn [him]?

[HiJolly]

Brian Hales is coming out with a two volume book on Joseph and polyandry, hopefully in 2011. I look forward to it.

HiJolly