do any mormons, practise polygamy at all

[Dravin]

They are, but we don't observe ancient Jewish law anymore, and neither did the early Latter-day Saints.

It should be noted though that the behaviors spoken against in the Decalogue are later reiterated as bad, in some cases with a higher standard (such as seen in the beatitudes), in scripture that generally isn't considered from the LDS perspective to fall under the heading of the Law of Moses. It is kinda interesting. We observe the Decalogue inasmuch as we keep them in following a higher standard (and you will find them taught and held up as valid commandments in Church teachings. Heck one of the lessons in Preach my Gospel is entitled "The 10 Commandments") but we also don't observe their narrower scope inasmuch as we follow a higher standard.

Note: The Decalogue itself should not be confused for the punishments affixed, via the Law of Moses, for breaking them, such as stoning.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Dravin

[HiJolly]

From what my Seminary teacher said, it was originally a commandment from God, in order to get the church to grow faster.

When the Church announced the manifesto, it was because that polygamy was no longer needed to help the church grow.

I love our Seminary & Institute teachers...

Unfortunately, DNA testing shows that Joseph's wives did not bear any of his children (so far - not 100% can be tested). So I think that while "raising up children unto the Lord" is a good reason, it's pretty tough to match that up with what actually happened.

HiJolly

[Wingnut]

It should be noted though that the behaviors spoken against in the Decalogue are later reiterated as bad, in some cases with a higher standard (such as seen in the beatitudes), in scripture that generally isn't considered from the LDS perspective to fall under the heading of the Law of Moses. It is kinda interesting. We observe the Decalogue inasmuch as we keep them in following a higher standard (and you will find them taught and held up as valid commandments in Church teachings. Heck one of the lessons in Preach my Gospel is entitled "The 10 Commandments") but we also don't observe their narrower scope inasmuch as we follow a higher standard.

Note: The Decalogue itself should not be confused for the punishments affixed, via the Law of Moses, for breaking them such, as stoning.

Thanks for the clarification on my statement. I definitely agree with what you are saying. I was just pointing out the fallacy of Backroads' "argument."

[Guest]

I love our Seminary & Institute teachers...

Unfortunately, DNA testing shows that Joseph's wives did not bear any of his children (so far - not 100% can be tested). So I think that while "raising up children unto the Lord" is a good reason, it's pretty tough to match that up with what actually happened.

HiJolly

My understanding of the commandment to practice polygamy was to allow women in those early days to be sealed to a worthy priesthood authority and qualify to attain the highest celestial glory. I understand there were one or two women who had husbands who carry the Milchezedek priesthood and still got sealed to Joseph Smith instead. I do not know the caliber of men these guys were or what prevented them from getting sealed to their wife. I leave that up to speculation and something I don't have to worry about for my own eternal salvation.

[Saguaro]

From what my Seminary teacher said, it was originally a commandment from God, in order to get the church to grow faster.

When the Church announced the manifesto, it was because that polygamy was no longer needed to help the church grow.

Others have addressed the first part of this, so I'll address the second part. The church stopped practicing polygamy because the US government was determined to make the practice illegal and stop it, also ending polygamy helped Utah to gain statehood. Even after the manifesto official polygamous marriages occurred. My own great-great-grandfather married his 5th wife (2nd living wife, other 3 had passed away) in the Salt Lake Temple in 1897, the manifesto came out in 1890. A second manifesto was issued in 1904 that reaffirmed the church's position on polygamy and threatened excommunication to those who continue to practice it.

[MichaelCraig]

Wait...wait!! Earlier in the thread I saw the word "polyandry". One wife with more than one husband. Please, does anyone know if there are people of any faith or culture practicing this now? My tiny brain hungers for more info!!!! :0

[HiJolly]

Wait...wait!! Earlier in the thread I saw the word "polyandry". One wife with more than one husband. Please, does anyone know if there are people of any faith or culture practicing this now? My tiny brain hungers for more info!!!! :0

Not that I'm aware of, though I think I read of a primitive culture somewhere in the world that did this. Can't remember where or who...

HiJolly

[Backroads]

Not that I'm aware of, though I think I read of a primitive culture somewhere in the world that did this. Can't remember where or who...

HiJolly

Paint Your Wagon?

[MichaelCraig]

I just found something on Tibetan culture.

Tibetan inheritance rules gave all males of the family, the right to claim a part of the family estate, so if each son took a different bride, there would be different conjugal families, and this would lead to the partitioning of the land among the different sons' families. To avoid this situation, the solution was a fraternal polyandrous marriage, where the brothers would share a bride. Bi-fraternal polyandrous marriages were more common than tri-fraternal or quadri-fraternal polyandry, because the latter forms of marriage were often characterized by severe familial tensions.

Family tensions?? Gee, why??? :0 Edited December 15, 2010 by MichaelCraig

[Backroads]

I just found something on Tibetan culture. Gee, ya rekon??? WOW!!

That is pretty cool!

[mapman]

Many critics depict Joseph's polygamy as being an excuse to satisfy his sex drive. Unfortunately for them there isn't evidence for this. For Joseph it was a difficult thing for him to live. He was given the commandment about 1831 and had one plural wife, Fanny Alger, in Kirtland. That marriage ended and he didn't really live the commandment fully until the Nauvoo period (rumor had it because a sword-bearing angel appeared to him). He had about 34 wives. The real reason Joseph Smith practiced polygamy was because God told him to as a way to seal more families together.

This site has good information:

As a personality of the nineteen

[Backroads]

Many critics depict Joseph's polygamy as being an excuse to satisfy his sex drive. Unfortunately for them there isn't evidence for this. For Joseph it was a difficult thing for him to live. He was given the commandment about 1831 and had one plural wife, Fanny Alger, in Kirtland. That marriage ended and he didn't really live the commandment fully until the Nauvoo period (rumor had it because a sword-bearing angel appeared to him). He had about 34 wives. The real reason Joseph Smith practiced polygamy was because God told him to as a way to seal more families together.

This site has good information:

As a personality of the nineteen

As my mom has said, if it were all about sex, why bother with marrying and taking care of them?

[mnn727]

but that is reference from the BOM give me something from the Bible.

Why, the Bible is not all the scripture there is.

We ar enot a Bible only people, so if you ask us a question you must accept what we give you (not saying you have to believe it, but you must accept it as binding on us)

[Guest mirancs8]

I have a very hard time believing what is said about JS practicing plural marriage to tame his sex drive. Imagine JS telling Emma about taking another wife. Imagine what Emma must have been thinking about JS. I think the spirit had to have guided her in those days for her to receive confirmation that in fact JS was to practice plural marriage and this was a commandment from God. Imagine going to a woman and saying "I want to take you as my 2nd wife." Imagine what a huge sacrifice this had to be for the women. Several women to share one man and to try and live in harmony with each others as sister wives.

Imagine the harsh judgment and difficulties they had to deal with from others and in the end the government. It was a difficult trial to be put in why would one voluntarily with no good reason (or to just have sex) commit to such a life.

Moreover, would any man in his right mind take more then one wife just for the heck of it?? I can't see any man volunteering for that scenario. It had to be a commandment. Only something very powerful would have so many follow that commandment righteously.

[bytebear]

Many critics depict Joseph's polygamy as being an excuse to satisfy his sex drive. Unfortunately for them there isn't evidence for this. For Joseph it was a difficult thing for him to live. He was given the commandment about 1831 and had one plural wife, Fanny Alger, in Kirtland. That marriage ended and he didn't really live the commandment fully until the Nauvoo period (rumor had it because a sword-bearing angel appeared to him). He had about 34 wives. The real reason Joseph Smith practiced polygamy was because God told him to as a way to seal more families together.

This site has good information:

As a personality of the nineteen

I do not believe Fanny Alger was a plural wife. There are several reasons for this. 1) she got pregnant while living with the smiths and several prominent church leaders accused Smith and left the church over the "affair", but 2) DNA evidence proved that Smith wasn't the father so he was falsely accused. and 3) Smith never mentioned anything about polygamy until years later. No, I think Alger was just a troubled teen who Joseph and Emma tried to help and had nothing to do with polygamy. Of course the waters were muddled when Brigham Young and other church leaders in later years tried to bolster their claims as the true church (competing with the non-polygamous RLDS group) by exaggerating Smith's plural wives. (side note: I also think this is where we get the sworn statements of women claiming to be sealed to Smith "in very deed" but I really don't know if I can believe any of them) I am sure more than one woman crossing the plains bolstered their position in the church by claiming to be sealed to the prophet.

Edited December 16, 2010 by bytebear

[mapman]

I do not believe Fanny Alger was a plural wife. There are several reasons for this. 1) she got pregnant while living with the smiths and several prominent church leaders accused Smith and left the church over the "affair", but 2) DNA evidence proved that Smith wasn't the father so he was falsely accused. and 3) Smith never mentioned anything about polygamy until years later. No, I think Alger was just a troubled teen who Joseph and Emma tried to help and had nothing to do with polygamy. Of course the waters were muddled when Brigham Young and other church leaders in later years tried to bolster their claims as the true church (competing with the non-polygamous RLDS group) by exaggerating Smith's plural wives. (side note: I also think this is where we get the sworn statements of women claiming to be sealed to Smith "in very deed" but I really don't know if I can believe any of them) I am sure more than one woman crossing the plains bolstered their position in the church by claiming to be sealed to the prophet.

I am not committed either way, but there are several sources providing evidence that Fanny Alger was a plural wife. I admit that it is debatable. However, whether or not Joseph practiced polygamy in Ohio I think that it has been shown that the doctrine was revealed to him there. See this article: Journal of Mormon History, Volume 05, 1978

In any case, my point was that there isn't evidence that Joseph's polygamy was different than many people think and perhaps less troubling than they think it is.

[catalyst]

Read some books thread starter...

When the church announced their practice officially there were no federal laws against it. You can learn all about the history found in several books-rough stone rolling, mormon polygamy ect. Some actions were considered religiously inspired, some actions were considered scrupulous by historians and my self. You are welcome to form an opinion based on the facts uncovered, opinions, and historical context presented by these historians.

However, if you think that sexual relationships with the additional wives by the elders was limited you are simply mistaken. There is documentation all over the place that this wasn't the case. Many of the wives were well aware of this going on and were quite vocal about it with their husbands and in their personal journals.

Some fun quotes on polygamy:

(Orson Pratt) "Monogamy, reasoned Pratt invited immortality. Prostitution could be prevented, in the way the Lord devised in ancient times; that is, by giving to his faithful servants a plurality of wives."-Mormon Polygamy:a History

Brigham Young's second wife (Mary Ann Angell Young) remarked, "God will be very cruel if he does not give us poor women adequate conpensation for the trials we have endured in polygamy."

He said he had the advantage of me, for when his women got tired, you could take them home and change them for a fresh one." Phineas Cook to Brigham Young

[Backroads]

Read some books thread starter...

When the church announced their practice officially there were no federal laws against it. You can learn all about the history found in several books-rough stone rolling, mormon polygamy ect. Some actions were considered religiously inspired, some actions were considered scrupulous by historians and my self. You are welcome to form an opinion based on the facts uncovered, opinions, and historical context presented by these historians.

However, if you think that sexual relationships with the additional wives by the elders was limited you are simply mistaken. There is documentation all over the place that this wasn't the case. Many of the wives were well aware of this going on and were quite vocal about it with their husbands and in their personal journals.

Some fun quotes on polygamy:

(Orson Pratt) "Monogamy, reasoned Pratt invited immortality. Prostitution could be prevented, in the way the Lord devised in ancient times; that is, by giving to his faithful servants a plurality of wives."-Mormon Polygamy:a History

Brigham Young's second wife (Mary Ann Angell Young) remarked, "God will be very cruel if he does not give us poor women adequate conpensation for the trials we have endured in polygamy."

He said he had the advantage of me, for when his women got tired, you could take them home and change them for a fresh one." Phineas Cook to Brigham Young

Oh, I have no doubt the policy was abused! I also am well aware women did not necessarily like it. I have had relatives who have been in polygamous relationships who were downright miserable. Same way with LDS ancestors.

[catalyst]

Oh, I have no doubt the policy was abused! I also am well aware women did not necessarily like it. I have had relatives who have been in polygamous relationships who were downright miserable. Same way with LDS ancestors.

Well not to burst your bubble but it's recorded that although many women found it trying many were also quite content with the lifestyle and didn't show issue with it in the least. It's actually somewhat of a misconception that mormon women were dehumanized by the practice. In reality a lot of wives lived lives similar to those of other women during those times. Don't mistake the practices of fundamentalist now with the earlier churches brand of polygamy. They are actually quite different. But I certainly won't argue that the policy was abused by some.

Personally, I'm not quite sure why polygamy is illegal in the first place other than it's simply not a western social norm. I really could care less if consenting adults want to live life this way. As long as people can afford their families it doesn't affect me in the least.

[mapman]

I think that it is significant that none of Joseph Smith's wives ever accused Joseph of being abusive or feeling repressed even though some eventually left the Church. That is not true for many fundamentalist groups.

[catalyst]

I think that it is significant that none of Joseph Smith's wives ever accused Joseph of being abusive or feeling repressed even though some eventually left the Church. That is not true for many fundamentalist groups.

What about the girls or husbands of a couple wives he decided to "court"?

[bytebear]

What about the girls or husbands of a couple wives he decided to "court"?

In the early years of the church it was a great honor to be sealed to the prophet, and even men were sealed to him as brothers and sons (the rules of who could be sealed to who was a lot looser than it is today and everyone wanted to be sealed to Joseph Smith in one way or another). Also many women who were married to non-Mormons were sealed to Smith so they could benefit from a celestial marriage they could not obtain with their earthly husband. The idea was that you were married earthly (or temporally) to one man and celestially to another, and to be sealed to the prophet was the greatest honor one could have. This is also why Helen Mar Kimball was sealed to Joseph at age 14. It was arranged by her parents, (her father was an apostle), so it wasn't about sex at all, as she never lived with him. Some historians call it a "dynastic" connection.

[catalyst]

In the early years of the church it was a great honor to be sealed to the prophet, and even men were sealed to him as brothers and sons (the rules of who could be sealed to who was a lot looser than it is today and everyone wanted to be sealed to Joseph Smith in one way or another). Also many women who were married to non-Mormons were sealed to Smith so they could benefit from a celestial marriage they could not obtain with their earthly husband. The idea was that you were married earthly (or temporally) to one man and celestially to another, and to be sealed to the prophet was the greatest honor one could have. This is also why Helen Mar Kimball was sealed to Joseph at age 14. It was arranged by her parents, (her father was an apostle), so it wasn't about sex at all, as she never lived with him. Some historians call it a "dynastic" connection.

That didn't really answer the question. It certainly wasn't all rose pedals and candy according to several accounts. Not singling out JS only but I am referring to him, BY and many of the other elders.

I agree with some of the above all though what some may consider an honor was also viewed by some of those individuals as the only way to receive their perceived salvation-more or less a cultural pressure. I don't disagree that some of the relationships served other purposes but it seems really naive to think that the men and women weren't having intimate relationships with several of their wives. Seems that it would be a safe statement to assume it was happening more than it wasn't happening as members tend to profess.

In my experience I've noticed that our fellow members tend to try and smolder the intent of polygamy when discussing it. Oddly enough I hear the two most casual responses to why it was asked of us were because:

1-build the membership of the church (ironic?)

2-It was of the highest order and necessary to reach the celestial kingdom

On another note-You or I do not know Joseph's relationship with Helen. Historical accounts actually swing both ways as to how intimate it probably was. Considering the fact that the relationship was consensual on both ends certainly could lead to the possibility of intimacy in the relationship and not at all improper. I guess we'll find out after the big dirt nap....

[bytebear]

Well, my personal opinion was that plural marriage was given as a spiritual law before it became a temporal law. What that means is that Joseph Smith was sealed to multiple wives but only spiritually and ha no sex with them. I know there are accounts out there, but I think the evidence that no children were produced by 33 women is quite telling, particularly when he was so fertile with Emma.

Now with Brigham Young, I think the law went to a temporal and spiritual law and clearly Young did have children with multiple wives.

As to the purpose, it was to "raise up a righteous seed" so I don't think it was just to have a bunch of children, but rather, to have a larger percentage of children raised by righteous priesthood holders as well as the most dedicated women (willing to sacrifice) for the gospel. I think it's pretty clear the advantage children born into a plural family who was faithful to the gospel had over those not chosen or worthy to be in such a relationship.

Another aspect I think people forget is that just like anyone who has left the church disillusioned, they tend to overstate their abuse. I can certainly imagine a woman thinking being the wife of Brigham Young would be a picnic, and then the cold hard state of things hits her. Perhaps it was the harsh living conditions of Utah compared to what she was used to living back East. Or maybe she couldn't get along with the other wives, or maybe she wanted more attention. Who knows. But I doubt that Young abused these women. His statements to them are basically if you can't lump it then leave it. He had no problem letting women go when they wanted out.

Edited December 17, 2010 by bytebear

[catalyst]

Well, my personal opinion was that plural marriage was given as a spiritual law before it became a temporal law. What that means is that Joseph Smith was sealed to multiple wives but only spiritually and ha no sex with them. I know there are accounts out there, but I think the evidence that no children were produced by 33 women is quite telling, particularly when he was so fertile with Emma.

Now with Brigham Young, I think the law went to a temporal and spiritual law and clearly Young did have children with multiple wives.

As to the purpose, it was to "raise up a righteous seed" so I don't think it was just to have a bunch of children, but rather, to have a larger percentage of children raised by righteous priesthood holders as well as the most dedicated women (willing to sacrifice) for the gospel. I think it's pretty clear the advantage children born into a plural family who was faithful to the gospel had over those not chosen or worthy to be in such a relationship.

Another aspect I think people forget is that just like anyone who has left the church disillusioned, they tend to overstate their abuse. I can certainly imagine a woman thinking being the wife of Brigham Young would be a picnic, and then the cold hard state of things hits her. Perhaps it was the harsh living conditions of Utah compared to what she was used to living back East. Or maybe she couldn't get along with the other wives, or maybe she wanted more attention. Who knows. But I doubt that Young abused these women. His statements to them are basically if you can't lump it then leave it. He had no problem letting women go when they wanted out.

I don't see Emma being fertile as a factor in Joseph not being intimate with his other wives. However, I think last time I was reading about this historians were aware of between 5-7 children from plural wives and were putting in the due diligence to confirm them via DNA testing. There have also been other questionable children from these women which unfortunately died at extremely young ages so testing isn't possible.